kelpdiver 2 #51 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuote Skydekker and Kallend want to blame the "health care" system for American excess. You are so full of shit that if your eyes weren't brown yet, they must be now. Your reading comprehension skills are beyond pathetic. someone's having a bad Monday... This is a tired topic - America's problem does not stem from bad medical care, or even bad health care coverage. The metrics suck because we work too much, engage in too little physical activity, and eat like kings. We engage in our vices like kings too. Unlike like JCD you want to incorporate civic engineering and while you're at it, anything society decides, as part of health care, the problems are a bit outside the boundaries of health care. Or ... tell me England is getting fat? Why are the Aussies (the non triathletes) getting fat? You got more to say than "eat shit?" Pathetic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #52 August 13, 2012 Quote Skydekker and Kallend want to blame the "health care" system for American excess. Wrong. Lack of a health care system is the problem.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #53 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuote Skydekker and Kallend want to blame the "health care" system for American excess. Wrong. Lack of a health care system is the problem. so you're saying the UK lacks a health care system? 23% are obese! http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #54 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Skydekker and Kallend want to blame the "health care" system for American excess. Wrong. Lack of a health care system is the problem. so you're saying the UK lacks a health care system? 23% are obese! http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity Last time I looked at math, 23 < 30.6 And how does that compare with Alabama or Mississippi? Name just ONE country with a universal health care system with a greater obesity rate than the USA.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #55 August 13, 2012 Your one warning. Cut it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #56 August 13, 2012 Quote Last time I looked at math, 23 < 30.6 And how does that compare with Alabama or Mississippi? Name just ONE country with a universal health care system with a greater obesity rate than the USA. So what you're saying here is that it's fine if you have an obesity rate up to 30%? So long as your're #2 or #3 in the case of the UK, your health care system is working great because somewhere out there people are on average even fatter? Face it - you have no answer to that question about England. Or the greater one - how does health care make people eat better, exercise more, abuse less drugs. Another interesting data piece from that same source - the US has the second lowest smoking rate (17.5, with Canada at 17), while England, France, Ireland sit 10 pts higher at 26 and 27%. Given that we've known for half a century about how bad smoking is, why hasn't their superior health care gotten them to stop? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #57 August 14, 2012 QuoteQuote Last time I looked at math, 23 < 30.6 And how does that compare with Alabama or Mississippi? Name just ONE country with a universal health care system with a greater obesity rate than the USA. So what you're saying here is that it's fine if you have an obesity rate up to 30%? So long as your're #2 or #3 in the case of the UK, your health care system is working great because somewhere out there people are on average even fatter? Strawman alert - kelp can't find a single country with universal healthcare that has a higher obesity rate than the USA, so he changes the subject with a strawman.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 292 #58 August 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Last time I looked at math, 23 < 30.6 And how does that compare with Alabama or Mississippi? Name just ONE country with a universal health care system with a greater obesity rate than the USA. So what you're saying here is that it's fine if you have an obesity rate up to 30%? So long as your're #2 or #3 in the case of the UK, your health care system is working great because somewhere out there people are on average even fatter? Strawman alert - kelp can't find a single country with universal healthcare that has a higher obesity rate than the USA, so he changes the subject with a strawman. Tonga. Free government provided healthcare at point of use. 90% obesity rate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #59 August 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Last time I looked at math, 23 < 30.6 And how does that compare with Alabama or Mississippi? Name just ONE country with a universal health care system with a greater obesity rate than the USA. So what you're saying here is that it's fine if you have an obesity rate up to 30%? So long as your're #2 or #3 in the case of the UK, your health care system is working great because somewhere out there people are on average even fatter? Strawman alert - kelp can't find a single country with universal healthcare that has a higher obesity rate than the USA, so he changes the subject with a strawman. No one disputes that the US leads, and continues to lead, particularly in the morbidly obese category. No, the question I asked (it was my question, so I'm pretty sure you're the one that's full of straw here), is why is obesity out of control in the UK and Australia, despite universal health care and something that is considered "good" health care? 23% is pretty bad by any measure. France sits at 9.4%. Most of Europe sits at half that 23% or better. So give me any explanation for this. I know you can't. Maybe Skydekker or JCD can try? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #60 August 14, 2012 QuoteNo one disputes that the US leads, and continues to lead, particularly in the morbidly obese category. No, the question I asked (it was my question, so I'm pretty sure you're the one that's full of straw here), is why is obesity out of control in the UK and Australia, despite universal health care and something that is considered "good" health care? 23% is pretty bad by any measure. France sits at 9.4%. Most of Europe sits at half that 23% or better. So give me any explanation for this. I know you can't. Maybe Skydekker or JCD can try? Because it isn't the only yardstick, it is one of many and probably a minor one at that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #61 August 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteNo one disputes that the US leads, and continues to lead, particularly in the morbidly obese category. No, the question I asked (it was my question, so I'm pretty sure you're the one that's full of straw here), is why is obesity out of control in the UK and Australia, despite universal health care and something that is considered "good" health care? 23% is pretty bad by any measure. France sits at 9.4%. Most of Europe sits at half that 23% or better. So give me any explanation for this. I know you can't. Maybe Skydekker or JCD can try? Because it isn't the only yardstick, it is one of many and probably a minor one at that. It's the only one we've been talking about in this thread, until I introduced smoking, which also doesn't confirm the greatness of European health care. Hard to be a minor one when it's the only one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #62 August 14, 2012 Dude, you make no sense. You asked for any axplanation. I gave it to you. Obesity rates still remain as but a small yard stick in the effectiveness of a health care program. You are trying to make something much bigger out of it for the sake of trying to "win" an internet argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #63 August 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteThat is ridiculous. Obesity has nothing at all to do with the health care system.... That depends on what you see the role of Health Care as. If you feel that Health Care should be actively involved with preventing health issues, then obesity is certainly a yard stick. If you believe that Health Care should only be about treatment after a problem arises, than obviously obesity has nothing to do with Health Care. Holy conjunction dysfuntion Batman. A good logician could feed a family of 4 for at least a week with this thread." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #64 August 14, 2012 QuoteDude, you make no sense. You asked for any axplanation. I gave it to you. I guess I needed to be explicit (shouldn't have to) Give me any explantion that explains away the hypocrisy of criticizing the US health system for obesity while ignoring it in others. Quote Obesity rates still remain as but a small yard stick in the effectiveness of a health care program. You are trying to make something much bigger out of it for the sake of trying to "win" an internet argument. And yet, this thread proves quite the opposite, that it is the primary yardstick used by those who like poking at Americans. I'm not trying, I'm kicking ass here. Best start thinking of new answers because I will resurrect it when the next bash American health care thread comes along. At least if it focuses on the uncontrollable aspects. If you want to focus on costs...I'm right there with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #65 August 15, 2012 QuoteAnd yet, this thread proves quite the opposite, that it is the primary yardstick used by those who like poking at Americans. "Poking" at indicators of poor health does not imply intentional poking at Americans. Obesity is a valid metric, even if using it as such is inconsistent with your imaginary excellent (current) American health care system.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #66 August 15, 2012 QuoteAnd yet, this thread proves quite the opposite, that it is the primary yardstick used by those who like poking at Americans. I'm not trying, I'm kicking ass here. Funny. All I have said in this thread is that obesity is a (small) yardstick regarding the effectiveness of Health Care. First you disagreed, now you seem to agree with me. If that is kicking ass....go at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #67 August 15, 2012 QuoteQuoteAnd yet, this thread proves quite the opposite, that it is the primary yardstick used by those who like poking at Americans. "Poking" at indicators of poor health does not imply intentional poking at Americans. Obesity is a valid metric, even if using it as such is inconsistent with your imaginary excellent (current) American health care system. oh, goodie. While Kallend vanished and Skydekker took the exit I provided, you still want to play. So you can answer the question then. Do the UK and Australia enjoy an excellent health care system? If yes, how do you explain away their high obesity rate? Bonus points if you can explain away the higher smoking rates, which we know kills about 1/3rd of its users. More to the point, when will you accept that most of this problem is beyond its control? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #68 August 15, 2012 Quoteoh, goodie. While Kallend vanished and Skydekker took the exit I provided … You share rushmc's high self-confidence in personal debate. It's equally justified. QuoteMore to the point, when will you accept that most of this problem is beyond its control? Apparently they don't give up on problems as easily as you. QuoteDo the UK and Australia enjoy an excellent health care system? If yes, how do you explain away their high obesity rate? Better than the US does not imply excellent.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #69 August 15, 2012 QuoteSkydekker took the exit I provided lol, whatever helps you sleep at night kelpie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #70 August 16, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd yet, this thread proves quite the opposite, that it is the primary yardstick used by those who like poking at Americans. "Poking" at indicators of poor health does not imply intentional poking at Americans. Obesity is a valid metric, even if using it as such is inconsistent with your imaginary excellent (current) American health care system. oh, goodie. While Kallend vanished and Skydekker took the exit I provided, you still want to play. So you can answer the question then. Do the UK and Australia enjoy an excellent health care system? If yes, how do you explain away their high obesity rate? Bonus points if you can explain away the higher smoking rates, which we know kills about 1/3rd of its users. More to the point, when will you accept that most of this problem is beyond its control? When almost all the rest of the civilized world has universal health care, some nation with universal healthcare will come in #3 in the obesity stakes. Just happens to be the UK. The USA still has more obesity by far. Fact is, the US is #1 in obesity, and has a poor showing in life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. HEALTH care in the USA is not as wonderful as you and the GOP seem to think.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #71 August 16, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd yet, this thread proves quite the opposite, that it is the primary yardstick used by those who like poking at Americans. "Poking" at indicators of poor health does not imply intentional poking at Americans. Obesity is a valid metric, even if using it as such is inconsistent with your imaginary excellent (current) American health care system. oh, goodie. While Kallend vanished and Skydekker took the exit I provided, you still want to play. So you can answer the question then. Do the UK and Australia enjoy an excellent health care system? If yes, how do you explain away their high obesity rate? Bonus points if you can explain away the higher smoking rates, which we know kills about 1/3rd of its users. More to the point, when will you accept that most of this problem is beyond its control? When almost all the rest of the civilized socialized world has universal government controledhealth care, some nation with universal healthcare will come in #3 in the obesity stakes. Just happens to be the UK. The USA still has more obesity by far. Fact is, the US is #1 in obesity, and has a poor showing in life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. HEALTH care in the USA is not as wonderful as you and the GOP seem to think. If Obama care is left in place better let the fatties be (which includes me) as people are going to have to die off faster to even try and afford this gov run disaster"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #72 August 16, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd yet, this thread proves quite the opposite, that it is the primary yardstick used by those who like poking at Americans. "Poking" at indicators of poor health does not imply intentional poking at Americans. Obesity is a valid metric, even if using it as such is inconsistent with your imaginary excellent (current) American health care system. oh, goodie. While Kallend vanished and Skydekker took the exit I provided, you still want to play. So you can answer the question then. Do the UK and Australia enjoy an excellent health care system? If yes, how do you explain away their high obesity rate? Bonus points if you can explain away the higher smoking rates, which we know kills about 1/3rd of its users. More to the point, when will you accept that most of this problem is beyond its control? When almost all the rest of the civilized socialized world has universal government controledhealth care, some nation with universal healthcare will come in #3 in the obesity stakes. Just happens to be the UK. The USA still has more obesity by far. OK, genius, tell us the name of one developed industrialized nation besides the US (#1 on the fatties list) that doesn't have universal health care coverage.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #73 August 16, 2012 QuoteQuote Of course there's lots of evidence to suggest that people lead more active lives when the opportunity is available (without a significant increase in perceived danger). For example, cities with complete streets and/or good bicycle infrastructure tend to see increased walking and/or biking. Such infrastructure may not be part of medical care, but it is part of health care. if civil engineering/planning is part of health care, then what isn't? From an interesting article at NPR.com yesterday: At some point in the last few decades, the human race went from being a species that is active most of the time to one that is increasingly sedentary. The Lancet recently called it an "inactivity pandemic," responsible for 1 in 10 deaths worldwide. That's a major shift, and a major public health problem, many researchers have pointed out. … [Michael Joyner, a physiologist at the Mayo Clinic,] says that he thinks about 30 percent of the responsibility to fight inactivity should fall on the medical community. "Physicians need to interact with patients about being active, and they need to write prescriptions for exercise," he says. He points to two of the greatest public health triumphs of the 20th century — improvements in traffic safety and the decline in smoking rates — as models for how we should tackle the inactivity epidemic. About one-third of the behavior change came from individuals who started using seat belts and car seats, and those who quit smoking, and doctors directly influenced that, he says. The rest was up to the public health community — to enact indoor smoking bans and harsh drunken driving laws — that helped support the right behavior.I guess I'm not the only one that considers improvements in traffic safety, such as active transportation infrastructure, an aspect of health care.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #74 August 16, 2012 QuoteI guess I'm not the only one that considers improvements in traffic safety, such as active transportation infrastructure, an aspect of health care. No doubt. Doctors like to think they're the answer to everything. (See CDC trying to treat gun violence as a disease). You call it health care, I call it society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #75 August 16, 2012 QuoteDoctors like to think they're the answer to everything. Specifically, the physiologist I quoted thinks the medical community should bear 30% of the responsibility. Of course, that implies that the supermajority of the responsibility be borne by others not in the medical community. So, clearly, he does not believe that doctors are the answer to everything. QuoteYou call it health care, I call it society. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is both.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jcd11235 0 #73 August 16, 2012 QuoteQuote Of course there's lots of evidence to suggest that people lead more active lives when the opportunity is available (without a significant increase in perceived danger). For example, cities with complete streets and/or good bicycle infrastructure tend to see increased walking and/or biking. Such infrastructure may not be part of medical care, but it is part of health care. if civil engineering/planning is part of health care, then what isn't? From an interesting article at NPR.com yesterday: At some point in the last few decades, the human race went from being a species that is active most of the time to one that is increasingly sedentary. The Lancet recently called it an "inactivity pandemic," responsible for 1 in 10 deaths worldwide. That's a major shift, and a major public health problem, many researchers have pointed out. … [Michael Joyner, a physiologist at the Mayo Clinic,] says that he thinks about 30 percent of the responsibility to fight inactivity should fall on the medical community. "Physicians need to interact with patients about being active, and they need to write prescriptions for exercise," he says. He points to two of the greatest public health triumphs of the 20th century — improvements in traffic safety and the decline in smoking rates — as models for how we should tackle the inactivity epidemic. About one-third of the behavior change came from individuals who started using seat belts and car seats, and those who quit smoking, and doctors directly influenced that, he says. The rest was up to the public health community — to enact indoor smoking bans and harsh drunken driving laws — that helped support the right behavior.I guess I'm not the only one that considers improvements in traffic safety, such as active transportation infrastructure, an aspect of health care.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #74 August 16, 2012 QuoteI guess I'm not the only one that considers improvements in traffic safety, such as active transportation infrastructure, an aspect of health care. No doubt. Doctors like to think they're the answer to everything. (See CDC trying to treat gun violence as a disease). You call it health care, I call it society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #75 August 16, 2012 QuoteDoctors like to think they're the answer to everything. Specifically, the physiologist I quoted thinks the medical community should bear 30% of the responsibility. Of course, that implies that the supermajority of the responsibility be borne by others not in the medical community. So, clearly, he does not believe that doctors are the answer to everything. QuoteYou call it health care, I call it society. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is both.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
