sundevil777 94
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QuoteQuoteIf you are applying for a new social security benefit you may need ID. This was not the case as little as five years ago, though. Assuming you are already receiving benefits (and at 94 that is a safe assumption) you do not need to have an ID to continue receiving them.
Five years ago, you're saying a person could get SS benefits without ID? I have trouble accepting that claim, do you have anything to back it up?
Yup, I personally accompanied people to social security appointments to apply for benefits. ID was never requested. I know it is currently possible to apply for benefits over the internet and maybe the phone as well. I have not utilized those options but presumably there is not a way to check ID there.
QuoteAssuming you have a Medicare card (which is not a picture ID) you do not need an ID to get your benefits.
Isn't ID required to get the Medicare card? ID might even be required by doctors, it wouldn't surprise me that a Medicare or other insurance card isn't enough.
Don't believe so. As long as I have a social security number I can apply for benefits. I can order a replacement Medicare card via the telephone as long as I know the SSN. No ID check required or possible. Doctors are increasingly requesting ID, but I don't know of any in my town that have turned somebody away for not having it.
QuoteI'd suggest that if you have an already established bank account then it is not necessary to have an ID to do any banking, including direct deposit. Indeed it is not at all necessary to ever talk to or see anybody to do any sort of banking, so no opportunity for anybody to ever ask for an ID.
Of course, but the obvious point is that ID is required to have established that already established bank account
Maybe, maybe not. Some small town banks could very well open an account for somebody without an ID. I know some of the banks around here are incredibly lax in giving out information over the phone and other issues. Anyway, at one time I believe a SSN was enough for a bank account, but I haven't opened one in a long time (except for an online account, which was done all by electronic submission, no id required there).
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
It's so simple. Unless of course, you have no birth certificate with a raised seal and you are NOT a PA native. Or you don't have a car and have no convenient way to make it to a DMV at the time it's open.
All this to solve a problem that the State of PA has admitted doesn't exist.
This is cannot be justified on the basis that it only excludes "lazy" people. This nonsense constitutes a poll tax by another name. There's no constitutional justification for imposing a poll tax on "lazy" people.
All this to solve a problem that the State of PA has admitted doesn't exist.
This is cannot be justified on the basis that it only excludes "lazy" people. This nonsense constitutes a poll tax by another name. There's no constitutional justification for imposing a poll tax on "lazy" people.
QuoteIf a voter does not POSSESS PROOF OF IDENTIFICATION FOR VOTING PURPOSES as defined at section 102(z.5)(2) of the Pennsylvania Election Code (25 P.S. § 2602(z.5)(2)) and requires proof of identification for voting purposes, the following applies:
You must declare under oath or affirmation by completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form that you do not possess any of the following forms of identification: In particular,
-Identification issued by the United States Government that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.*
- Identification issued by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired (unless issued by the Department of Transportation, then the expiration of the identification cannot be more than 12 months past the expiration date).
- Identification issued by a municipality of this Commonwealth to an employee of that municipality that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.
- Identification issued by an accredited Pennsylvania public or private institution of higher learning that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.
- Identification issued by a Pennsylvania care facility that includes my name, a photograph, and an expiration date that is not expired.
*In the case of a document from an agency of the armed forces of the United States or their reserve components, including the Pennsylvania National Guard, that establishes the voter as a current member or a veteran of the United States Armed Forces or National Guard and that does not designate a specific date on which the document expires, the document must include a notation indicating that the expiration is indefinite.
$13.50 fee for acquiring an Identification Card will be waived for individuals completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form. All identification documentation is still required to obtain an Identification Card as follows:
Step1
To obtain a Pennsylvania Photo Identification card, an individual needs to visit a Pennsylvania Department of Transportation Driver License Center with a completed Application for an Initial Photo Identification Card; form DL-54A, and the following:
Social Security Card
AND
One of the following:
Certificate of U.S. Citizenship
Certificate of Naturalization
Valid U.S. Passport
*Birth Certificate with a raised seal
PLUS
Two proofs of **residency such as lease agreements, current utility bills, mortgage documents, W-2 form, tax records
*If they do not have a birth certificate with a raised seal and are a Pennsylvania native; and do not have one of the acceptable, alternative forms of photo identification to vote; and will provide a signed oath/affirmation form, when visiting the PennDOT driver license center, they must:
Tell the PennDOT customer service representative they are a Pennsylvania native who needs a photo ID for voting purposes, and do not have a certified copy of their birth certificate;
Sign an oath/affirmation that they do not have an acceptable form of ID for voting purposes and the photo ID is needed for voting purposes;
Show a Social Security card and two proofs of residence, such as a deed, lease, tax bill, or utility bill;
Fill out a DL-54A form requesting a non-driver photo ID and;
Complete the HD01564F (Request for Certification of Birth Record for Voter ID Purposes Only) form, which collects information such as birth name, mother and father's name and place of birth. This Department of Health form is available at all Driver Licensing Centers.
PennDOT will then forward the completed form to the Department of Health, which maintains birth records. After verifying the birth record is on file, the Department of Health will securely transmit this information to PennDOT. PennDOT will then notify them by letter that their birth record has been confirmed. They may then return to any driver license center, with the above noted documentation, to receive your free photo ID for voting purposes. This verification process will take about ten days and does not require the payment of a fee.
**Students at least 18 years of age: Accepted proofs of residency include the room assignment paperwork (considered a lease) and one bill with their dorm room address on it. Bank statements, paystubs and credit card bills are all acceptable. Other Individuals who may not have any bills, leases or mortgage documents in their name may bring the person with whom they are living along with their Driver’s License or Photo ID to a driver license center as one proof of residence.
Step 2
When their application and supporting documentation have been reviewed and processed, a Driver License Center staff member will direct the applicant to the Photo Center to have their photo taken for their Photo ID card.
Step 3
Once their photo has been taken, they will be issued a Photo ID card.
PennDOT Photo ID Website
Andy9o8 0
QuoteI'm just not sure how this is an argument against a photo ID. Looks like an argument for one to me. The poll worker should be arrested, too.
Right. That's not what I'm arguing. The point is that it is not needed and there is no constitutional justification FOR this voter I.D. law. It doesn't solve a problem that needs to be solved by potentially disenfranchising thousands of citizens.
sundevil777 94
>Yup, I personally accompanied people to social security appointments to apply for benefits. ID was never requested.
You are wrong about what it takes to get Social Security benefits.
According to the SS dept you don't need a photo ID, but you do need quite a load of documents (see quote below).
Perhaps you don't have a very good memory of when you personally accompanied people to apply for benefits. They do say that you can start the application without the documents, so maybe you just forgot that the person you accompanied had so much homework to do:
You need to have:
They do say that they will provide help to get the documents. That is nice of them to help out the elderly like that. I wonder if some of the predicted cost of voter ID laws might also be devoted to helping people get their documents so they can get the ID needed to vote. I remember that some of the states claimed that they were going to provide such help, which would be very costly to do.
From a quick look at the Medicare site info, it seems that the Medicare application relies on the SS process in terms of identification, which makes sense.
The local banks I've used have asked for driver's license and SS card. Ally bank (which is a major online only bank, also require identification that is assumed to be SSN, but may include driver's license:
It sure is a big burden that our government imposes upon the seasoned citizens. Voter ID law requirements seem reasonable in comparison.
The last jobs I got required (due to federal regulations) that I provide 2 forms of ID that had to come from different categories. I believe a combination of SS card and birth certificate was enough, other options were possible. Picture ID was not needed, but just having a job required at least 2 forms of government issued ID.
It sure is a big burden that our government imposes upon people that get hired for a job. Voter ID law requirements seem reasonable in comparison.
You are wrong about what it takes to get Social Security benefits.
According to the SS dept you don't need a photo ID, but you do need quite a load of documents (see quote below).
Perhaps you don't have a very good memory of when you personally accompanied people to apply for benefits. They do say that you can start the application without the documents, so maybe you just forgot that the person you accompanied had so much homework to do:
You need to have:
Quote
your Social Security card (or a record of your number);
your original birth certificate or other proof of birth (You may also submit a copy of your birth certificate certified by the issuing agency);
proof of U.S. citizenship or lawful alien status if you were not born in the U.S.;
a copy of your U.S. military service paper(s) (e.g., DD-214 - Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) if you had military service before 1968; and
a copy of your W-2 form(s) and/or self-employment tax return for last year.
They do say that they will provide help to get the documents. That is nice of them to help out the elderly like that. I wonder if some of the predicted cost of voter ID laws might also be devoted to helping people get their documents so they can get the ID needed to vote. I remember that some of the states claimed that they were going to provide such help, which would be very costly to do.
From a quick look at the Medicare site info, it seems that the Medicare application relies on the SS process in terms of identification, which makes sense.
QuoteI'd suggest that if you have an already established bank account then it is not necessary to have an ID to do any banking, including direct deposit. Indeed it is not at all necessary to ever talk to or see anybody to do any sort of banking, so no opportunity for anybody to ever ask for an ID...Some small town banks could very well open an account for somebody without an ID. I know some of the banks around here are incredibly lax in giving out information over the phone and other issues. Anyway, at one time I believe a SSN was enough for a bank account, but I haven't opened one in a long time (except for an online account, which was done all by electronic submission, no id required there).
The local banks I've used have asked for driver's license and SS card. Ally bank (which is a major online only bank, also require identification that is assumed to be SSN, but may include driver's license:
Quote
IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT OPENING A NEW ACCOUNT
To help the United States Government fight terrorism and money laundering, Federal law requires us to obtain, verify, and record information that identifies each person that opens an account.
What this means for you: when you open an account, we will ask for your name, a street address, date of birth, and an identification number, such as a Social Security number. We may also ask to see your driver's license or other identifying documents that will allow us to identify you. We appreciate your cooperation.
It sure is a big burden that our government imposes upon the seasoned citizens. Voter ID law requirements seem reasonable in comparison.
The last jobs I got required (due to federal regulations) that I provide 2 forms of ID that had to come from different categories. I believe a combination of SS card and birth certificate was enough, other options were possible. Picture ID was not needed, but just having a job required at least 2 forms of government issued ID.
It sure is a big burden that our government imposes upon people that get hired for a job. Voter ID law requirements seem reasonable in comparison.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
QuoteIt sure is a big burden that our government imposes upon people that get hired for a job. Voter ID law requirements seem reasonable in comparison.
I agree that the law seems reasonable. However, the law is not necessary. It doesn't solve an existing problem and it does potentially disenfranchise many citizens. It isn't justifiable on constitutional grounds. It also violates the voting rights act.
Quote“The integrity of the electoral process is not enhanced by turning away people at the ballot box,” David Gersch, an attorney for the petitioners with the law firm Arnold & Porter LLP in Washington, told Judge Robert E. Simpson. “Voting is not a privilege. It’s a right. Why is it that we need all these hoops? It’s really not necessary. It’s harassment.”
QuoteQuoteThis nonsense constitutes a pole tax by another name. There's no constitutional justification for imposing a pole tax on "lazy" people.
I think you mean a poll tax.
I'm pretty sure a pole tax has something to do with This.
I will vote against any candidate that proposes new pole taxes!
Quote>Yup, I personally accompanied people to social security appointments to apply for benefits. ID was never requested.
You are wrong about what it takes to get Social Security benefits.
According to the SS dept you don't need a photo ID, but you do need quite a load of documents (see quote below).
Perhaps you don't have a very good memory of when you personally accompanied people to apply for benefits. They do say that you can start the application without the documents, so maybe you just forgot that the person you accompanied had so much homework to do:
You need to have:Quote
your Social Security card (or a record of your number);
your original birth certificate or other proof of birth (You may also submit a copy of your birth certificate certified by the issuing agency);
proof of U.S. citizenship or lawful alien status if you were not born in the U.S.;
a copy of your U.S. military service paper(s) (e.g., DD-214 - Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) if you had military service before 1968; and
a copy of your W-2 form(s) and/or self-employment tax return for last year.
I do this for a living. I am well aware of the requirements for getting SS benefits. I've accompanied literally dozens of people to the local social security office to apply for both SSI and SSDI. A social security card is indeed required. That is not a photo ID which could be used for a voter ID. If you did not have an social security card, well, five years ago they would issue a card at your request and mail it to you. Today they would ask for a photo ID. Trust me, I've had to help a lot of people get a DMV ID and track down a birth certificate to start that process. Have never provided a birth certificate to social security, perhaps the agency already had that on file. Never had to submit proof of citizenship. Never had to provide a W-2 (many of the people I was with did not work or had a work history from quite a while ago). We have been required to provide some similar documentation (paystubs) for review of benefits. Sometimes SSA would get those directly from the employer. I would also say that I am in a relatively small city and most of the folks I was with would have been known to the Social Security Administration (not all). If they person I was with was not known then they may have simply accepted my word. I know that may not work that way in a big city or a larger office.
They do say that they will provide help to get the documents. That is nice of them to help out the elderly like that. I wonder if some of the predicted cost of voter ID laws might also be devoted to helping people get their documents so they can get the ID needed to vote. I remember that some of the states claimed that they were going to provide such help, which would be very costly to do.
From a quick look at the Medicare site info, it seems that the Medicare application relies on the SS process in terms of identification, which makes sense.
QuoteI'd suggest that if you have an already established bank account then it is not necessary to have an ID to do any banking, including direct deposit. Indeed it is not at all necessary to ever talk to or see anybody to do any sort of banking, so no opportunity for anybody to ever ask for an ID...Some small town banks could very well open an account for somebody without an ID. I know some of the banks around here are incredibly lax in giving out information over the phone and other issues. Anyway, at one time I believe a SSN was enough for a bank account, but I haven't opened one in a long time (except for an online account, which was done all by electronic submission, no id required there).
The local banks I've used have asked for driver's license and SS card. Ally bank (which is a major online only bank, also require identification that is assumed to be SSN, but may include driver's license:
Quote
IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT OPENING A NEW ACCOUNT
To help the United States Government fight terrorism and money laundering, Federal law requires us to obtain, verify, and record information that identifies each person that opens an account.
What this means for you: when you open an account, we will ask for your name, a street address, date of birth, and an identification number, such as a Social Security number. We may also ask to see your driver's license or other identifying documents that will allow us to identify you. We appreciate your cooperation.
It sure is a big burden that our government imposes upon the seasoned citizens. Voter ID law requirements seem reasonable in comparison.
The last jobs I got required (due to federal regulations) that I provide 2 forms of ID that had to come from different categories. I believe a combination of SS card and birth certificate was enough, other options were possible. Picture ID was not needed, but just having a job required at least 2 forms of government issued ID.
It sure is a big burden that our government imposes upon people that get hired for a job. Voter ID law requirements seem reasonable in comparison.
Anyway, I'm amazed that people think their own limited experience of the world and how things work applies to everybody. Yup, a lot of those things sure are easier if you have ID. For a few of them (a job) an ID or two is pretty much essential. Most of the rest, well, it is a little less convenient but when you live in a small town and do business with people who have known you pretty much your whole life, it is possible to do quite a lot without an ID, including banking, doctor appointments, etc.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
sundevil777 94
QuoteI do this for a living. I am well aware of the requirements for getting SS benefits.
Then why did you say "ID was never requested?"
I was ready to accept that you had forgotten. The fact you did not admit it might lead a person to think that you want to obscure the facts.
There is a substantial, and very ordinary burden on citizens to have ID, including having a job as you admit. To assert that the proposed ID burden for voting is too great is not reasonable. I could understand if you argued that a birth certificate and SS card should be enough (non-picture ID), that might be a reasonable position against a picture ID requirement.
Even though picture ID is not required for SS benefits, the burden is substantial, including military service records and tax forms.
QuoteI'm amazed that people think their own limited experience of the world and how things work applies to everybody
Do you think Ally bank requires ID as a policy they initiated? Perhaps you didn't bother to read that part of the Ally bank statement that says, "Federal law requires us to obtain, verify, and record information that identifies each person that opens an account." You may have bankers that don't follow the law, but to imply that a typical seasoned citizen should expect that is wrong. As you know, they are required to have direct deposit.
Why would people go to so much trouble to get fraudulent voter registrations if it was not with the intent to commit voting fraud? If conservatives are found to be collecting fraudulent registrations, I would assume it if for the purpose of voting fraud. Why should I think differently of any group that would do it? Voting fraud is unfortunately too easy to do, and difficult to catch, which is why it is so easy to conclude that it isn't happening.
I think the "solution to a problem that doesn't exist" argument is not going to be enough, and we've been over the supposed "ID is too much of a burden" contention. Liberals should think of a better argument. It doesn't matter that I think it doesn't work, what should matter for liberals is that it won't convince the general (voting
) public. If there was reason to believe that voting fraud was happening to the overall detriment of liberals, then I am confident that they would be very eager to spend the money needed and inconvenience the voters to prevent it.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
Quote
Do you think Ally bank requires ID as a policy they initiated? Perhaps you didn't bother to read that part of the Ally bank statement that says, "Federal law requires us to obtain, verify, and record information that identifies each person that opens an account." You may have bankers that don't follow the law, but to imply that a typical seasoned citizen should expect that is wrong. As you know, they are required to have direct deposit.
and when do you think that law was implemented? With a 94 year old lady, SS and MC and banking accounts were taken care of decades ago. What is true now often wasn't necessary then. Or perhaps she had the requisite form of ID then, but hasn't bothered renewing her driver's license since 1985. Will Voter ID laws permit a form of identification that expired 20 years ago? or even last year?
QuoteIf there was reason to believe that voting fraud was happening to the overall detriment of liberals, then I am confident that they would be very eager to spend the money needed and inconvenience the voters to prevent it.
The point is that there's no reason to believe that voting fraud is happening to the overall detriment of conservatives. What Republicans are doing, without evidence that there is significant in-person voter fraud occurring, is to make it as difficult as possible for people who will have difficulty jumping through the hoops to cast their vote. It's blatant, it's obvious, and they know what they are doing.
Five years ago, you're saying a person could get SS benefits without ID? I have trouble accepting that claim, do you have anything to back it up?
Isn't ID required to get the Medicare card? ID might even be required by doctors, it wouldn't surprise me that a Medicare or other insurance card isn't enough.
Of course, but the obvious point is that ID is required to have established that already established bank account
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