kallend 1,654 #76 June 1, 2012 Funny the way our capitalist friends get so upset about supply and demand when it comes to education.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #77 June 1, 2012 Quote The part that I find insane is 10k to live on campus. That's more than the tuition. It's gone up quite a bit sine the mid 90s. Georgia tech is the same way now- the student housing is more than the tuition. Dorm housing is amazingly expensive for what it is. Almost certainly better off sharing an apartment with friends on the campus periphery. But even there, rent of 500/month is typical in a urban college town. That's 6k right by itself. Quote Were I to do it over again I would have started at local community college and got the prereqs out of the way and then transferred. I got very little out of my first three out four semesters. Would you say you were driven to achieve in that time frame? The big downside to the CC route over a strong academic school is the average ability of the students. The quality of education for lower division classes is unlikely to differ, and the instructors will be more accessible, but the curve is lower and thus you can get away with more, the depth of the lecture may not delve as deep. It is incumbent on that student to put in more effort than is needed. I personally would not have done so well...but after the 8 prior years of aggressive education I needed a break and would have benefited greatly from a year or semester off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #78 June 1, 2012 QuoteFunny the way our capitalist friends get so upset about supply and demand when it comes to education. Funny how our socialist friends suddenly become capitalists when it comes to their livelyhood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #79 June 1, 2012 QuoteI pay more, much more, in taxes than you claim I should be able to make Outliers happen in math and in life. QuoteAnd as I told you, this region has hundreds of thousands of others in the same boat Regional variances are not the NATIONS norm.... The average salary in the US is about 30k. That is not true in CA or NY, but that does not change the FACT that it is still the average. QuoteErgo, you're making shit up. You can't defend numbers you pulled out of your ass - admit it. No, you are taking a small sample and trying to claim it represents the whole. A totally bullshit tactic used by people that are either ignorant or smart enough to know it is the only way their claim works.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #80 June 1, 2012 Quote>Third time..... I have to wonder why you always try to make an argument that was not made? Followed by: >You do realize that encouraging commerce, if it worked, would be a return right? So you are not arguing that it would be a return? What I have said is that the Govt should be investing tax dollars in the same way an individual would. And even you admitted that from an investors angle, investing in the student with an engineering degree is a much better choice than the liberal arts education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #81 June 1, 2012 QuoteFunny the way our capitalist friends get so upset about supply and demand when it comes to education. I don't see how you get that claim from my posts. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-bright-eyed-young-man-was-utterly-demolished-by-student-loans.html For example, this guy. His father offered to help him go to school to be an engineer. The guy didn't want that, so he dropped out and went to a 'culinary academy' that 10 seconds worth of independent research would have shown was a bad idea. He signed up for loans at a very high interest rate.... Now he blame everyone but himself. He should get no help, thankfully this school was not eligible for govt backed loans and student loans are not able to be expunged by bankruptcy. He was an adult that made bad choices... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,444 #82 June 1, 2012 >What I have said is that the Govt should be investing tax dollars in the same way an >individual would. OK. So now you are saying the government should NOT be paying for roads, veteran's benefits, a military etc since an individual would not invest his money in such a manner. >And even you admitted that from an investors angle, investing in the student with an >engineering degree is a much better choice than the liberal arts education. From the STUDENT's perspective, on average, investing in an engineering education is a much better choice than a liberal arts education. However, that's on average. For someone like Justine (old friend of mine) a liberal arts degree is a much better choice. She is now a filthy rich artist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #83 June 1, 2012 QuoteOK. So now you are saying the government should NOT be paying for roads, veteran's benefits, a military etc since an individual would not invest his money in such a manner. Nope..... And your examples are wrong as well. Companies DO invest in roads (Texas Turnpike Co. will start constructing a 223-mile, four-lane thruway from the Dallas area to Houston, at a cost of $140 million. At the same time the Sam Houston Toll Road Corp. will start building the first leg (Dallas-Waco, 83 miles) of its $140 million toll road).. And Companies invest in other infrastructure such as computers, vehicles... Hell, my company bought an entire airport. Companies also provide benefits to their workers, it is part of the compensation package. Companies also provide security for their assets. Your examples are incorrect. QuoteFrom the STUDENT's perspective, on average, investing in an engineering education is a much better choice than a liberal arts education. No, from the general societies perspective it is better. Higher chance of it getting paid back, higher chance of success in the field, higher number of skilled engineers in the US..... Your one example of your friend making it.... There is a pretty good change that she didn't NEED a degree and for every success story there are tons of failures. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-bright-eyed-young-man-was-utterly-demolished-by-student-loans.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #84 June 1, 2012 Are you an engineer? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #85 June 1, 2012 QuoteYep, and engineer will make 100k+, A Liberal arts major 30-40k *maybe* in most cases. Which would YOU personally invest in with your OWN money? Running a country, state or municipality is not the same as running a business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #86 June 1, 2012 Quote QuoteErgo, you're making shit up. You can't defend numbers you pulled out of your ass - admit it. No, you are taking a small sample and trying to claim it represents the whole. A totally bullshit tactic used by people that are either ignorant or smart enough to know it is the only way their claim works.... No, you made shit up. What source can you provide to support your claim that engineering is 100k and liberal arts is 30-40k at best? You can't because it's an flat out lie. Just a couple weeks ago Kallend provided a real source. http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp I'm eager to see how you disregard reality again (like saying Florida 2000 is proof of voter fraud existing). You are very creative for an engineer- can architect new truths using gaseous materials alone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #87 June 7, 2012 QuoteAre you an engineer? No. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #88 June 7, 2012 QuoteRunning a country, state or municipality is not the same as running a business When you run a business you have to have a budget and stay within that budget. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #89 June 7, 2012 QuoteNo, you made shit up. Oh look, more personal crap from you. Is this the best you can do? And yes, lets look at your source..... Hey, the top 5 paying degrees: Seven engineering degrees and Computer science, Physics and Math. All with mid career salaries 97k to 155k Show me a liberal arts degree on that list with a mid career salary of 100k. Face it, you are wrong and the best you can do is throw insults. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #90 June 7, 2012 QuoteQuoteNo, you made shit up. Oh look, more personal crap from you. Is this the best you can do? And yes, lets look at your source..... Hey, the top 5 paying degrees: Seven engineering degrees and Computer science, Physics and Math. All with mid career salaries 97k to 155k Show me a liberal arts degree on that list with a mid career salary of 100k. Face it, you are wrong and the best you can do is throw insults. 6 days later, he pops up again. Admit already you made shit up. Now you're just trying to misrepresent an actual source and ignore the actual claims of your's. I could dissect the misrepresentations in your last post, but what's the point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #91 June 7, 2012 Quote6 days later, he pops up again. Again, I don't live on here. Don't like it, don't read it. QuoteAdmit already you made shit up Nope, your own source proved my point.... Out of the top 10 degrees... Not ONE was liberal arts. FACTS do not support your BS. I will give you some credit... You have finally avoiding using personal attacks.... BRAVO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #92 June 7, 2012 QuoteQuoteBut let's assume you graduate with a degree in Classics and $150k in debt. Now we're looking at something else entirely. Govt backed student loans should only be for degrees like engineering, liberal arts do not have the ROI.Heard an interesting comment on NPR the other day, to the effect that a big problem is that banks have successfully lobbied congress to pass laws that ensure student loans can't ever be discharged, not even by declaring bankruptcy. Banks love student loans, because the student is forever tied to paying them back. Maybe if student loans were like other loans, where there is some risk to the lender that the borrower will default, then lenders would be more diligent to ensure they don't get in too deep with students in majors that give a poor return on investment. The government distorts the market by protecting the banks in this case. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #93 June 7, 2012 Quote QuoteAdmit already you made shit up Nope, your own source proved my point.... Out of the top 10 degrees... Not ONE was liberal arts. FACTS do not support your BS. I will give you some credit... You have finally avoiding using personal attacks.... BRAVO! It was the same calling out your lies as before. And you seem to have forgotten your claim. It was not that liberal arts degrees are the top earners. You claimed that tech degrees are earning 100k+ and liberal arts degrees are getting 30-40k at best. Petroleum engineering is the only one close to 100k at graduation. There are several engineering disciplines that are in the 100-109 range midcareer. At the start, only 5 of them can get 60s. So clearly we're talking about midcareer numbers for your claim. We haven't really defined liberal arts - does that include math or econ? We know it includes poli sci or government. random selections from that source: Even with a strict definition, there's no shortage of liberal arts majors averaging in the 75k-80k. The engineering disciplines averaged between 90 and 109, with the exception of petro. So let's call it that 100k you cited - that's a 30% improvement from the upper 70s, hardly the 250% increase in earning power you claimed (I mean, pulled out of your ass). Political Science and Chemistry are basically tied - how the fuck do you explain that? Econ - 94.7k Stats - 93.8k Math - 89.9k Finance - 87.3k Gov - 87.3k - beating out Biochem, EE Tech, CE Tech, Molecular Bio Chemistry - 80.9k Film Production - 80.7k PoliSci - 80.1k International Relations - 79.4k. Occupational Health and Safety - 79k American Studies - 78.6k Urban Planning (gasp) - 78k Accounting - 75.7k Philosophy (LOL) - 75.6k Literature - 73.2k History - 69k Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,444 #94 June 8, 2012 >Companies DO invest in roads Percentage wise, who pays more for roads - the government or businesses? >No, from the general societies perspective it is better. Based on your particular agenda. Your agenda includes lots of MP3 players, video games and Ipads instead of lots of art. That's fine; you can have any agenda you want. So can other people. >our one example of your friend making it.... There is a pretty good change that she >didn't NEED a degree . . . True. And Bill Gates didn't need a degree either! Therefore engineering degrees are worthless too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #95 June 8, 2012 QuoteEcon - 94.7k Stats - 93.8k Math - 89.9k Finance - 87.3k Gov - 87.3k - beating out Biochem, EE Tech, CE Tech, Molecular Bio Chemistry - 80.9k Film Production - 80.7k PoliSci - 80.1k International Relations - 79.4k. Occupational Health and Safety - 79k American Studies - 78.6k Urban Planning (gasp) - 78k Accounting - 75.7k Philosophy (LOL) - 75.6k Literature - 73.2k History - 69k One or two caveats: what percentage of people who earned undergraduate degrees in these fields actually found work in the discipline? Are these incomes specifically for those with undergrad degrees, or do they include masters and PhDs? I think a large proportion of those earning chemistry or accounting degrees actually find work in that or a related field, but I don't think that's true for some other degrees. If 100 people get poly sci degrees, and five get jobs at $75,000/yr but 95 end up in the service industry, maybe the average salary in the field is #75,000 but the average ROI is a lot less. In some of those fields, real employment requires an advanced degree. Just saying, those numbers have a pretty big fuzziness factor. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #96 June 8, 2012 Quote]One or two caveats: what percentage of people who earned undergraduate degrees in these fields actually found work in the discipline? Are these incomes specifically for those with undergrad degrees, or do they include masters and PhDs? I think a large proportion of those earning chemistry or accounting degrees actually find work in that or a related field, but I don't think that's true for some other degrees. If 100 people get poly sci degrees, and five get jobs at $75,000/yr but 95 end up in the service industry, maybe the average salary in the field is #75,000 but the average ROI is a lot less. In some of those fields, real employment requires an advanced degree. Just saying, those numbers have a pretty big fuzziness factor. Don The framing context is DaVinci's assertion that the feds shouldn't assist in loans to those studying liberal arts because their (lack of) earning power will prevent them from making good on the debt. So it doesn't really matter what the people do with their degrees. The link gives the methodology - it excludes those who earn a higher degree. And it is *not* a measure of salary within the field. ROI is measured in simple dollars...it would be silly to artificially restrict it (nevermind nearly impossible to collect data) to those who remain "on subject." That may be appropriate for trade schools, but university is suppose to be more than just that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #97 June 8, 2012 Got it. Thanks. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManagingPrime 0 #98 June 8, 2012 QuoteQuote$200k of debt and here is your paper but good luck paying it off sucker! So I mentor many kids here in NJ. Great kids! But we say that about our own kids. Anyhow long story short all of my kids are smart enough to get into university, all of them are smart enough to get into good engineering schools and all of them are unfortunate enough to be middle class. And I was talking to them the other night and it just shocked the hell out of me that the price of public university education is just north of $35k and private can be as high as $50k. No. Public school in a fun state where you can live by yourself, "get an education" (instead of being stifled by your parents), and maybe slap a brand name on yourself costs that much. In-state tuition and fees someplace like CU Boulder is about $11,000 a year. Other schools are similar but more likely to be surrounded by cornfields not mountains. Of course your degree still says "CU Boulder" when you get core classes out of the way first at Front Range Community college which runs only $105 per credit hour or about $3150 a year. Doing so doesn't even preclude graduating summa cum laude. 2 x 3,150 + 2 x $11000 = 28,300. Fees add a few hundred more to the community college tab so you might round to $30K. Living with house mates you can get by on well under $1000/month living by yourself, or $24K for 2 years. Divide by 4 years and you're looking at $13,500 a year for a "university" degree which you could pay for working summers and half-time during the school year if that was available. Or you could just finish at community college and spend under $3,500 a year. Quote I'm sorry I love economics and I wish I had majored in that instead of engineering but well help me out. How the hell is this a good way to grow an economy let alone produce a stable society? America is _NOT_ about making a stable society. It's about serving corporatist interests which are many and varied. For instance we exempt student loan debt from bankruptcy so the financial industry can write and profit on loans that otherwise would not make sense. More money chasing the same number of college slots does cause tuition to rise which hurts students; but they can't afford their own lobbyists so they don't count. We let professors teach just 9-15 hours a week versus 30 for high school teachers and give them teams of assistants for menial chores like grading papers. Obviously more professors means higher tuition which hurts students; but unlike professors students don't have unions looking after their interests. Quote I don't have any solution to this but I just can't help but be very pissed off by it! I have a great solution: Don't spend more money than you can afford to. When it comes to college that means attending schools that you and your parents can cover with assets or _realistically_ expect to pay back with earnings from your degree. Obviously, community college at $3500/year fits in with a lot more profession + family wealth combinations than private schools running $50K/year for tuition alone. Some places give job candidates credit for going to expensive schools. I don't because where peoples' parents could afford to send them (or how much debt they were willing to accept) has little to do with how well they'll do their job or even perform in the interview process. More expensive schools may even count as a negative because of the incentive to game the system to make more profits, like graduating more students that aren't capable enough to survive in the real world. My favorite professor got in trouble for failing too many students (who couldn't handle engineering, but did bring valuable out of state tuition payments to the college and department) and was no longer allowed to teach a core class. Her replacement didn't fail so many people and there was a significant increase in my company's reject rate interviewing graduates. +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #99 June 14, 2012 QuoteMaybe if student loans were like other loans, where there is some risk to the lender that the borrower will default, then lenders would be more diligent to ensure they don't get in too deep with students in majors that give a poor return on investment. The government distorts the market by protecting the banks in this case. I agree. If student loans were treated like regular loans then the free market would actually work. It would be difficult to get a loan to go to culinary school since the job prospects are not great, but easier to get a loan for a degree in engineering if your grades were good. Put the Govt has stepped in and tried to 'help' making loans easier to get and with lower rates than normal. So Banks knowing that they have to give out loans they would normally not want to give out.... Well they ask for SOME protection for their risk. My choice would be to remove the protections AND the requirements and let banks loan what they want at the rate they want. But if the govt is going to force lower rates, etc... Then I can see some protections to the bank. Another example of unintended consequences from well meaning legislation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #100 June 14, 2012 QuoteBut the Govt has stepped in and tried to 'help' making loans easier to get and with lower rates than normal. So Banks knowing that they have to give out loans they would normally not want to give out.... Well they ask for SOME protection for their risk. and extend that - now that students get loans easier - demand goes up, and the price of education skyrockets. Thus making making it even more likely that more loans are mandated - thus driving demand up even more for degrees that don't pay for crap ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
