wmw999 2,123 #76 January 13, 2012 No, it's not about America bashing. What the Taliban does in beheading people is just as unacceptable. And when people say "they understand how it comes about" it' s exactly the same as when you say you can understand how they did that. Both sides in any war have members who are capable of stupid, kind, cruel, barbaric, etc. acts. I just got done reading Flyboys, about American POWs in the Pacific who were beheaded and then eaten by their Japanese captors. The book gives a lot of background as to how this happened. It also describes American pilots strafing Japanese civilians. War is the worst possible way to settle human conflict. It's not glorious, it doesn't "make a man" in any way that justifies it. To me, stopping an invading army is a valid reason for war in your own country. Helping an ally who's being invaded and has requested is also a possible valid reason (but you have to beware of situations like Contra/Sandinista). They get pretty fucking slim after that, as far as I can see at the moment. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #77 January 13, 2012 QuoteHas any poster here yet tasked the Taliban about beheading civilians? Not one. It's simply about America bashing. No it isn't. QuoteOne poster on this thread was "joking" about the Nazi's massacring Greeks in another thread yesterday. No, I didn't. Nice diversion though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #78 January 13, 2012 QuoteNo, it's not about America bashing. What the Taliban does in beheading people is just as unacceptable. And when people say "they understand how it comes about" it' s exactly the same as when you say you can understand how they did that. Both sides in any war have members who are capable of stupid, kind, cruel, barbaric, etc. acts. I just got done reading Flyboys, about American POWs in the Pacific who were beheaded and then eaten by their Japanese captors. The book gives a lot of background as to how this happened. It also describes American pilots strafing Japanese civilians. War is the worst possible way to settle human conflict. It's not glorious, it doesn't "make a man" in any way that justifies it. To me, stopping an invading army is a valid reason for war in your own country. Helping an ally who's being invaded and has requested is also a possible valid reason (but you have to beware of situations like Contra/Sandinista). They get pretty fucking slim after that, as far as I can see at the moment. Wendy P. Gotta disagree with you. It is about America bashing. Again.... No one has of yet defended the jarheads. It's unanimous in that they were wrong. Again..... I simply say, I understand how it can happen. No defense of the act at all. And, guess what....? It will happen again. "They get pretty fucking slim after that, as far as I can see at the moment. " Very unbecoming. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #79 January 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteHas any poster here yet tasked the Taliban about beheading civilians? Not one. It's simply about America bashing. No it isn't. QuoteOne poster on this thread was "joking" about the Nazi's massacring Greeks in another thread yesterday. No, I didn't. Nice diversion though. Who said it was you..? Wow....! Somebody locate Dr. Kallend. We have a person possibly in need of his vast, and varied services. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #80 January 13, 2012 Why is this about America bashing, when the behavior is definitely unacceptable? Would you understand this behavior if it were done by Taliban fighters, or had been done by Iraqi insurgents? Would you be quiet if someone else were to post that they understood how people could be so pissed, or would you call them unamerican? Do we get different rules? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #81 January 13, 2012 QuoteWho said it was you..? Then who was it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #82 January 13, 2012 QuoteWhy is this about America bashing, when the behavior is definitely unacceptable? Would you understand this behavior if it were done by Taliban fighters, or had been done by Iraqi insurgents? Would you be quiet if someone else were to post that they understood how people could be so pissed, or would you call them unamerican? Do we get different rules? Wendy P. No, I would not be quiet, I'd be smart enough to "walk a mile in their shoes" before declaring that they were wrong, WHICH I HAVE. Even though I have already posted that I would loath to sit on a GCM for these guys. But in doing so, I agree that they SHOULD BE CHARGED AND CM-ED. As for the tone of the posts, I believe that there is ample reason to say America bashing is very much an element of the debate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #83 January 13, 2012 Some posters are America-bashers. Yep. Ignore them. They don't get away, but that way their threads are shorter. And blind defense of American is jingoism. We're no more perfect than any other country. There's a whole lot of good here, and our systems work better than in many other countries. But our people, as a whole, seem to be less willing to listen to criticism of our country than other countries are (at least as far as I can see, and have experienced). That may sound like patriotism, but sometimes there's a nugget of truth behind criticism, and one ignores it at one's own peril. As far as the "being quiet" are you saying that you can understand why Taliban or insurgents would do things like behead American soldiers? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #84 January 13, 2012 Quote Quote Who said it was you..? Then who was it? Way outside the rules, here. Borders on a PA, if I understand Quades explanation of what the rules are for this site.Since you admit to have been joking about Nazi's massacring people, then perhaps you should seek counseling. Sad...... Not good at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #85 January 13, 2012 "As far as the "being quiet" are you saying that you can understand why Taliban or insurgents would do things like behead American soldiers?" You lost me..... You're saying the jarheads beheaded those dead guys, too? I didn't see that crap anywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #86 January 13, 2012 No. You're saying that you can understand where they piss-taking Marines are coming from emotionally (and agreed it's unlawful). I asked if, therefore, you understood where the Taliban who behead Americans are coming from emotionally; I inferred from your response that you did, and asked for confirmation. Do you think that violating someone in what's seen as a barbaric way is just as bad when we do it to someone else, as when others do it to us? Note, by the way, that what see as barbaric isn't always seen as barbaric by the perpetrators (e.g. beheading), just as pissing on a corpse is far less barbaric to an American than it is to an Arab (as far as I can tell from reading). Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #87 January 13, 2012 QuoteI have not yet, anywhere in this thread stated that I condone the conduct of those jarheads. in post #57 you wrote, "Yes, I will vote for acquittal at the GCM." That's about as much "condoning" as anyone could ever hope for. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #88 January 13, 2012 QuoteNo. You're saying that you can understand where they piss-taking Marines are coming from emotionally (and agreed it's unlawful). I asked if, therefore, you understood where the Taliban who behead Americans are coming from emotionally; I inferred from your response that you did, and asked for confirmation. Do you think that violating someone in what's seen as a barbaric way is just as bad when we do it to someone else, as when others do it to us? Note, by the way, that what see as barbaric isn't always seen as barbaric by the perpetrators (e.g. beheading), just as pissing on a corpse is far less barbaric to an American than it is to an Arab (as far as I can tell from reading). Wendy P. That is one of the things I was attempting to explain yesterday. Hoo-ray.... Someone gets it. I stand on my previous statements. In combat, troops should follow the Code of Conduct, and the UCMJ. What others do is on them, and their superiors and then they must answer for their conduct. I do have doubt that the Taliban fighters who have mutilated bodies, and so forth, will be charged under whatever code of conduct, if there is any, that the Taliban uses By the way.... Did you know that any and all battlefield pick ups, or souvenirs, are technically the property of the US government. That is how extensive the UCMJ goes to control the behavior of troops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #89 January 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteI have not yet, anywhere in this thread stated that I condone the conduct of those jarheads. in post #57 you wrote, "Yes, I will vote for acquittal at the GCM." That's about as much "condoning" as anyone could ever hope for.[/repl We disagree... Being brought up on a charge and GCM-ed is some grim stuff. If I were to be the sole jurist on a panel, that could fit your case. Mens Rea............. for example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,123 #90 January 13, 2012 So then you won't object if, after some new atrocity against an American soldier or civilian, someone says that they understand why (the committer) might have done that? Understanding isn't the same as condoning, no matter whose side you're one. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoogeyMan 0 #91 January 13, 2012 QuoteSo then you won't object if, after some new atrocity against an American soldier or civilian, someone says that they understand why (the committer) might have done that? Understanding isn't the same as condoning, no matter whose side you're one. Wendy P. Someone says they understand why somebody did something. Your words, yes? OK.... so what? That ain't a crime is it? To say that one understands an act is not to agree with the act or even the motive behind the act. To distinguish whether the victims are American or another human inhabitant of our planet is not valid to me. Kinda cold blooded statement, Wendy. We could beat this horse all day, and still get nowhere. Now that I have seemingly defacto hijacked this thread.... Since you are a mediator or an arbitrator, don't you have anything productive to do? Answering e-mails is time consuming for me, as I do have a very full and busy life. I'm getting kinda bored with this topic and the myopic responses that are flowing in on the tide. As you posted; best to ignore some posts. I do look forward to your future posts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 622 #92 January 13, 2012 "Since you are a mediator or an arbitrator, don't you have anything productive to do?" Quite an asinine response, really. She actually seems to be doing her best to be civil with you. I find that impressive. More so given your responses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #93 January 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhy is this about America bashing, when the behavior is definitely unacceptable? Would you understand this behavior if it were done by Taliban fighters, or had been done by Iraqi insurgents? Would you be quiet if someone else were to post that they understood how people could be so pissed, or would you call them unamerican? Do we get different rules? Wendy P. No, I would not be quiet, I'd be smart enough to "walk a mile in their shoes" before declaring that they were wrong, WHICH I HAVE. Good for you, but I disagree about walking in their shoes. I don't have to be a murderer to know that murder is wrong. I don't have to be a rapist (or rape victim) to know that rape is wrong. I don't have to be a torturer to know that torture is wrong. This event was tactically unnecessary, strategically counterproductive, and just plain wrong. It reflects badly on the USMC and on the USA. NO EXCUSES.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoogeyMan 0 #94 January 13, 2012 Quote "Since you are a mediator or an arbitrator, don't you have anything productive to do?" Quite an asinine response, really. She actually seems to be doing her best to be civil with you. I find that impressive. More so given your responses. Being off topic and an attempted flame, do you have anything on topic to add? Wendy holds her self as an intelligent person, and capable of making her own responses. Why do you insult her? BTW...Are you a Mod? We know who your GF is. We already went over the Knight in shiny armor way back in the debate. Hypocritical actually...... Reading some of your posts, you are in exactly zero position to criticize any poster on this entire web site. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Creep0321 0 #95 January 13, 2012 Quote Good for you, but I disagree about walking in their shoes. I don't have to be a murderer to know that murder is wrong. I don't have to be a rapist (or rape victim) to know that rape is wrong. I don't have to be a torturer to know that torture is wrong. This event was tactically unnecessary, strategically counterproductive, and just plain wrong. It reflects badly on the USMC and on the USA. NO EXCUSES. You disagree about walking in our shoes because you haven't, I had a similar train of thought before i deployed the first time. War, especially the type of war we are fighting against the Taliban that follow no rules of war, is different than civilian life and murder back here. Shit happens, its that simple, fortunately we have not committed even 1% of the atrocities that the Taliban has. Bit that shit doesn't make the media. Were these Marines wrong, yea, should they be punished, minimally in my opinion, the media is pitting more attention on this than need be, its that simple really.Jack of all trades. Military Free Fall Jumpmaster. USA Static-line Jumpmaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoogeyMan 0 #96 January 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy is this about America bashing, when the behavior is definitely unacceptable? Would you understand this behavior if it were done by Taliban fighters, or had been done by Iraqi insurgents? Would you be quiet if someone else were to post that they understood how people could be so pissed, or would you call them unamerican? Do we get different rules? Wendy P. No, I would not be quiet, I'd be smart enough to "walk a mile in their shoes" before declaring that they were wrong, WHICH I HAVE. Good for you, but I disagree about walking in their shoes. I don't have to be a murderer to know that murder is wrong. I don't have to be a rapist (or rape victim) to know that rape is wrong. I don't have to be a torturer to know that torture is wrong. This event was tactically unnecessary, strategically counterproductive, and just plain wrong. It reflects badly on the USMC and on the USA. NO EXCUSES. Agreed.......... I believe that you are reading my posts, yet not comprehending. I have posted that there should indeed be a GCM. Do you have a problem with bringing charges, and a GCM? A GCM is no small matter, either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 622 #97 January 13, 2012 Yup...like I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #98 January 13, 2012 >fortunately we have not committed even 1% of the atrocities that the >Taliban has. Right. But you can't really criticize the Taliban; you have to be smart enough to "walk a mile in their shoes" before declaring that they were wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoogeyMan 0 #99 January 13, 2012 Quote Yup...like I said. Like you said, what? Another attempt to flame? Dood.! Those lame ass one liners have been roundly bashed and been cause for interjection by Mods, in other threads. Anything on topic to add? If not, then post an apology to Wendy, and power down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #100 January 13, 2012 QuoteShit happens The words of someone who has no intelligent response left. While most US soldiers are honorable, to defend these few guys, who clearly have no honor, does nothing but dishonor the majority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 4 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
wmw999 2,123 #90 January 13, 2012 So then you won't object if, after some new atrocity against an American soldier or civilian, someone says that they understand why (the committer) might have done that? Understanding isn't the same as condoning, no matter whose side you're one. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #91 January 13, 2012 QuoteSo then you won't object if, after some new atrocity against an American soldier or civilian, someone says that they understand why (the committer) might have done that? Understanding isn't the same as condoning, no matter whose side you're one. Wendy P. Someone says they understand why somebody did something. Your words, yes? OK.... so what? That ain't a crime is it? To say that one understands an act is not to agree with the act or even the motive behind the act. To distinguish whether the victims are American or another human inhabitant of our planet is not valid to me. Kinda cold blooded statement, Wendy. We could beat this horse all day, and still get nowhere. Now that I have seemingly defacto hijacked this thread.... Since you are a mediator or an arbitrator, don't you have anything productive to do? Answering e-mails is time consuming for me, as I do have a very full and busy life. I'm getting kinda bored with this topic and the myopic responses that are flowing in on the tide. As you posted; best to ignore some posts. I do look forward to your future posts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #92 January 13, 2012 "Since you are a mediator or an arbitrator, don't you have anything productive to do?" Quite an asinine response, really. She actually seems to be doing her best to be civil with you. I find that impressive. More so given your responses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #93 January 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhy is this about America bashing, when the behavior is definitely unacceptable? Would you understand this behavior if it were done by Taliban fighters, or had been done by Iraqi insurgents? Would you be quiet if someone else were to post that they understood how people could be so pissed, or would you call them unamerican? Do we get different rules? Wendy P. No, I would not be quiet, I'd be smart enough to "walk a mile in their shoes" before declaring that they were wrong, WHICH I HAVE. Good for you, but I disagree about walking in their shoes. I don't have to be a murderer to know that murder is wrong. I don't have to be a rapist (or rape victim) to know that rape is wrong. I don't have to be a torturer to know that torture is wrong. This event was tactically unnecessary, strategically counterproductive, and just plain wrong. It reflects badly on the USMC and on the USA. NO EXCUSES.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #94 January 13, 2012 Quote "Since you are a mediator or an arbitrator, don't you have anything productive to do?" Quite an asinine response, really. She actually seems to be doing her best to be civil with you. I find that impressive. More so given your responses. Being off topic and an attempted flame, do you have anything on topic to add? Wendy holds her self as an intelligent person, and capable of making her own responses. Why do you insult her? BTW...Are you a Mod? We know who your GF is. We already went over the Knight in shiny armor way back in the debate. Hypocritical actually...... Reading some of your posts, you are in exactly zero position to criticize any poster on this entire web site. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creep0321 0 #95 January 13, 2012 Quote Good for you, but I disagree about walking in their shoes. I don't have to be a murderer to know that murder is wrong. I don't have to be a rapist (or rape victim) to know that rape is wrong. I don't have to be a torturer to know that torture is wrong. This event was tactically unnecessary, strategically counterproductive, and just plain wrong. It reflects badly on the USMC and on the USA. NO EXCUSES. You disagree about walking in our shoes because you haven't, I had a similar train of thought before i deployed the first time. War, especially the type of war we are fighting against the Taliban that follow no rules of war, is different than civilian life and murder back here. Shit happens, its that simple, fortunately we have not committed even 1% of the atrocities that the Taliban has. Bit that shit doesn't make the media. Were these Marines wrong, yea, should they be punished, minimally in my opinion, the media is pitting more attention on this than need be, its that simple really.Jack of all trades. Military Free Fall Jumpmaster. USA Static-line Jumpmaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #96 January 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy is this about America bashing, when the behavior is definitely unacceptable? Would you understand this behavior if it were done by Taliban fighters, or had been done by Iraqi insurgents? Would you be quiet if someone else were to post that they understood how people could be so pissed, or would you call them unamerican? Do we get different rules? Wendy P. No, I would not be quiet, I'd be smart enough to "walk a mile in their shoes" before declaring that they were wrong, WHICH I HAVE. Good for you, but I disagree about walking in their shoes. I don't have to be a murderer to know that murder is wrong. I don't have to be a rapist (or rape victim) to know that rape is wrong. I don't have to be a torturer to know that torture is wrong. This event was tactically unnecessary, strategically counterproductive, and just plain wrong. It reflects badly on the USMC and on the USA. NO EXCUSES. Agreed.......... I believe that you are reading my posts, yet not comprehending. I have posted that there should indeed be a GCM. Do you have a problem with bringing charges, and a GCM? A GCM is no small matter, either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #97 January 13, 2012 Yup...like I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #98 January 13, 2012 >fortunately we have not committed even 1% of the atrocities that the >Taliban has. Right. But you can't really criticize the Taliban; you have to be smart enough to "walk a mile in their shoes" before declaring that they were wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #99 January 13, 2012 Quote Yup...like I said. Like you said, what? Another attempt to flame? Dood.! Those lame ass one liners have been roundly bashed and been cause for interjection by Mods, in other threads. Anything on topic to add? If not, then post an apology to Wendy, and power down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #100 January 13, 2012 QuoteShit happens The words of someone who has no intelligent response left. While most US soldiers are honorable, to defend these few guys, who clearly have no honor, does nothing but dishonor the majority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
