Oh the irony

[jono 0]

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Even aside from health insurance, un-helmeted riders (in states that permit it) make everyone's auto liability insurance premiums higher. In most US states, liability insurance is mandatory for anyone who owns a motor vehicle. If you own a car or truck in a state that does not have mandatory motorcycle helmet laws, your liability insurance premium will be higher, to offset the risk that the motorcyclist you might be involved in an accident with might be more seriously injured or killed because he wasn't wearing a helmet (and that therefore your insurance carrier will have to pay-out a larger amount on the resulting injury or wrongful death claim).

Might want to check the facts Andy.

More likely that motorcycle accidents are the fault of an automobile driver and your rates are higher because the auto driver(and his insurer) is liable for damages.
Helmet laws are in place soley for the benefit of those auto insurers who are liable for damages caused by their customers.

Blue Skies,
Dan

I am sure this MIGHT have been a secondary consideration when drafting the law but I think that the primary reason is to prevent death/injury for those to stupid to understand that it will help save your life or those that think they can AVOID an accident just cos they are a careful rider.

Remember you don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop laughing.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Even aside from health insurance, un-helmeted riders (in states that permit it) make everyone's auto liability insurance premiums higher. In most US states, liability insurance is mandatory for anyone who owns a motor vehicle. If you own a car or truck in a state that does not have mandatory motorcycle helmet laws, your liability insurance premium will be higher, to offset the risk that the motorcyclist you might be involved in an accident with might be more seriously injured or killed because he wasn't wearing a helmet (and that therefore your insurance carrier will have to pay-out a larger amount on the resulting injury or wrongful death claim).

Might want to check the facts Andy.

More likely that motorcycle accidents are the fault of an automobile driver and your rates are higher because the auto driver(and his insurer) is liable for damages.
Helmet laws are in place soley for the benefit of those auto insurers who are liable for damages caused by their customers.

I know the facts, Dan, having practiced insurance and motor vehicle law for 25+ years. If you'll read carefully, you'll see that nothing you have said is inconsistent with anything I have said.

[rehmwa 2]

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Helmet laws are in place soley for the benefit of those auto insurers who are liable for damages caused by their customers.

nice - I'm just picturing executives of insurance companies walking around the office wearing helmets all the time

short answer - if the helmets reduce the level of damage to the cyclist, then, sure, damages are reduced. This can be primary or secondary justification, it doesn't matter. I'm sure the cyclist that crashes (those idiots that don't drive safe, OR those wonderful safe drivers that are crashed due to those horrible 4 wheel operators) still appreciates having a broken arm instead of mash brains and a broken arm.

aside - (I see my share of both 2 and 4 wheel idiots, but the 2 wheel version seem much more flamboyant in their idiocy and are much more clever in rationalizing breaking the laws of the road - just read some of the posts on dz.com where cyclist posers post and brag about how fast they drive on public roads - impressing both women and their parents with how extreme they are)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ion01 1]

How about not subject me and everyone else to your thoughts and standards? How about not making us have to pay for everyone else and their mistakes through regulation? Maybe we should regulate the internet so other people don't have to read certain posts and weed through false information etc.
Apply the same thought process to skydiving that you are using and you have just outlawed our own sport.
Its my life and if I want to destroy it I should be able to do so whether its destroyed by huge debt incurred through the EMSA costs or my death it is my life not yours.

[marks2065 0]

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Like I wrote before, thay don't call them accidents because you know they are about to happen.
Seems like like some people are just too stubborn or stupid to relize that quitting skydiving is safer than not.

Fixed it for you. It doesn't matter what you do, it is how safe you do it. Skydiving accidents raise health insurance premiums for all and what you are infering is that we should be regulated in all activities and be required to wear a bubble suite for protection at all times. wearing or not wearing a helmet should be the option of the rider. It is a fact that some accidents are caused by the helmet. by that fact all riders should not wear helmets if we follow your reasoning.

[billvon 2,400]

>It is a fact that some accidents are caused by the helmet.

And some skydiving fatalities are caused by the rig. Still be sorta dumb to jump without one.

[Andy9o8 0]

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How about not subject me and everyone else to your thoughts and standards?

How about you not subjecting me and everyone else to higher auto liability insurance premiums to pay for your freedom to have the wind in your hair while sharing the public roads with everyone else?

[jumpwally 0]

..and yet when someone is terminal they are not allowed help to end their life in a dignified , peaceful manner,,,but its ok to leave your insides inside out on the highway....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[marks2065 0]

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>It is a fact that some accidents are caused by the helmet.

And some skydiving fatalities are caused by the rig. Still be sorta dumb to jump without one.

most motorcycle accidents are caused by a lack of awareness of surroundings, the helmet directly causes a reduction in awareness by reducing hearing and vission. proven fact. the best way to reduce the chance of an accident is to use all tools at your dispossal to reduce the risk of an accident and that would mean not wearing a full face helmet.

[billvon 2,400]

>most motorcycle accidents are caused by a lack of awareness of
>surroundings, the helmet directly causes a reduction in awareness by
>reducing hearing and vission. proven fact.

And most skydiving accidents are caused by complacency. Proven fact. Remove the complacency that most people have that their main/reserve/AAD/RSL will save them, and they will use all the tools at their disposal to not die during a skydive.

[Andy9o8 0]

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>It is a fact that some accidents are caused by the helmet.

And some skydiving fatalities are caused by the rig. Still be sorta dumb to jump without one.

most motorcycle accidents are caused by a lack of awareness of surroundings, the helmet directly causes a reduction in awareness by reducing hearing and vission. proven fact. the best way to reduce the chance of an accident is to use all tools at your dispossal to reduce the risk of an accident and that would mean not wearing a full face helmet.

My cousin the oral/maxillofacial surgeon has about half of his practice at the local hospital doing repairs of people's faces from accidents. He says a large portion of those are reconstructing the jaws of motorcyclists who weren't wearing full-face helmets.

[DanJohnson 0]

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>It is a fact that some accidents are caused by the helmet.

And some skydiving fatalities are caused by the rig. Still be sorta dumb to jump without one.

most motorcycle accidents are caused by a lack of awareness of surroundings, the helmet directly causes a reduction in awareness by reducing hearing and vission. proven fact. the best way to reduce the chance of an accident is to use all tools at your dispossal to reduce the risk of an accident and that would mean not wearing a full face helmet.

My cousin the oral/maxillofacial surgeon has about half of his practice at the local hospital doing repairs of people's faces from accidents. He says a large portion of those are reconstructing the jaws of motorcyclists who weren't wearing full-face helmets.

Hear se !
But the truth is that most motorcycle accidents are caused by 4 wheel vehicles violating the motorcyclists right of way.

I know,
You may be right but you are still dead!

So what?
Who fears death?
No one who has opened their third eye!

I say live and let live. Live and let die!

My not wearing a helmet isn't affecting the price of your insurance policy nearly as much as 4 wheelers who violate the right of way of two wheelers.

[rehmwa 2]

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But the truth is that most motorcycle accidents are caused by 4 wheel vehicles violating the motorcyclists right of way.

1 - even if true, it's hardly justification to not wear a helmet - it's justification to absolutely wear one since this is out of the operator's control

2 - hard to give right away to some idiot on a public road flying along a 60mph road at 90 mph down the center stripe instead of in his own lane - no matter how extreme he thinks he is

(yes, I'm cynical because I see more idiotic motorcycle driving in my area at least than typical lately - --- since gas prices went up)

edit: and yes, these idiots comprise a really small percentage of most motorcyclists - but they are ruining it for the rest of us

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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My not wearing a helmet isn't affecting the price of your insurance policy nearly as much as 4 wheelers who violate the right of way of two wheelers.

that's idiotic - regardless of the cause of the accident, the increased medical cost is the reason the policy price is up - doesn't matter who was at fault.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanJohnson 0]

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But the truth is that most motorcycle accidents are caused by 4 wheel vehicles violating the motorcyclists right of way.

1 - even if true, it's hardly justification to not wear a helmet - it's justification to absolutely wear one since this is out of the operator's control

2 - hard to give right away to some idiot on a public road flying along a 60mph road at 90 mph down the center stripe instead of in his own lane - no matter how extreme he thinks he is

(yes, I'm cynical because I see more idiotic motorcycle driving in my area at least than typical lately - --- since gas prices went up)

edit: and yes, these idiots comprise a really small percentage of most motorcyclists - but they are ruining it for the rest of us

Yes,
If you research the data I'm certain you will find the vast majority of motorcycle accidents are the fault of an automobile driver failing to yield the right of way.

Instead of mandatory helmets perhaps we should outlaw cars.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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But the truth is that most motorcycle accidents are caused by 4 wheel vehicles violating the motorcyclists right of way.

1 - even if true, it's hardly justification to not wear a helmet - it's justification to absolutely wear one since this is out of the operator's control

2 - hard to give right away to some idiot on a public road flying along a 60mph road at 90 mph down the center stripe instead of in his own lane - no matter how extreme he thinks he is

(yes, I'm cynical because I see more idiotic motorcycle driving in my area at least than typical lately - --- since gas prices went up)

edit: and yes, these idiots comprise a really small percentage of most motorcyclists - but they are ruining it for the rest of us

Yes,
If you research the data I'm certain you will find the vast majority of motorcycle accidents are the fault of an automobile driver failing to yield the right of way.

Instead of mandatory helmets perhaps we should outlaw cars.

Perhaps riders should accept the FACT that, chances are, they will lay down their bike at some point. And, chances are, they will strike their head on something. Maybe hard, maybe just a bump.
I lost a good friend about 25 years ago when he lost control and ended up in a field. Not a scratch on him, but he had a severe closed head injury. Laid in a coma for two weeks before they unplugged him and let him pass. His passenger? Busted all to hell. Ribs. Leg. Both arms. Road rash. But he left the hospital before Mike's body. HE was wearing a helmet.
The difference was that Mike was thrown clear and ended up in a field where his head hit something, probably a rock. His buddy was trapped under the bike.
Personally I don't care if you wear a lid or not. Sometimes I don't, but usually do. But don't feel you have to justify not wearing one. Just say "I don't want to". It works for me.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[DanJohnson 0]

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But the truth is that most motorcycle accidents are caused by 4 wheel vehicles violating the motorcyclists right of way.

1 - even if true, it's hardly justification to not wear a helmet - it's justification to absolutely wear one since this is out of the operator's control

2 - hard to give right away to some idiot on a public road flying along a 60mph road at 90 mph down the center stripe instead of in his own lane - no matter how extreme he thinks he is

(yes, I'm cynical because I see more idiotic motorcycle driving in my area at least than typical lately - --- since gas prices went up)

edit: and yes, these idiots comprise a really small percentage of most motorcyclists - but they are ruining it for the rest of us

Yes,
If you research the data I'm certain you will find the vast majority of motorcycle accidents are the fault of an automobile driver failing to yield the right of way.

Instead of mandatory helmets perhaps we should outlaw cars.

Perhaps riders should accept the FACT that, chances are, they will lay down their bike at some point. And, chances are, they will strike their head on something. Maybe hard, maybe just a bump.
I lost a good friend about 25 years ago when he lost control and ended up in a field. Not a scratch on him, but he had a severe closed head injury. Laid in a coma for two weeks before they unplugged him and let him pass. His passenger? Busted all to hell. Ribs. Leg. Both arms. Road rash. But he left the hospital before Mike's body. HE was wearing a helmet.
The difference was that Mike was thrown clear and ended up in a field where his head hit something, probably a rock. His buddy was trapped under the bike.
Personally I don't care if you wear a lid or not. Sometimes I don't, but usually do. But don't feel you have to justify not wearing one. Just say "I don't want to". It works for me.

Heart wrenching story.
I don't think I have attempted to justify not wearing one.
If I wanted to do that I'd have posted a heart wrenching story of my own about a fledgiling skydiver who lost his life on a gravel road at low speed because of his full face helmet.

[diablopilot 2]

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How about not subject me and everyone else to your thoughts and standards?

How about you not subjecting me and everyone else to higher auto liability insurance premiums to pay for your freedom to have the wind in your hair while sharing the public roads with everyone else?

How about you attack the insurance industry since they are the cause of that particular problem, and not the individual who simply wants the freedom of choice.

Fuckin' nanny state.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

So post it. It would be very interesting to hear of how a helmet caused a death.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[DanJohnson 0]

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So post it. It would be very interesting to hear of how a helmet caused a death.

Do you know of the hangmans' noose?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So post it. It would be very interesting to hear of how a helmet caused a death.

Do you know of the hangmans' noose?

Yep. It was used by executioners to hang people. How is that relevent?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Andy9o8 0]

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How about not subject me and everyone else to your thoughts and standards?

How about you not subjecting me and everyone else to higher auto liability insurance premiums to pay for your freedom to have the wind in your hair while sharing the public roads with everyone else?

How about you attack the insurance industry since they are the cause of that particular problem, and not the individual who simply wants the freedom of choice.

Fuckin' nanny state.

But they're really not. Sorry, but you guys just aren't understanding the cause-and effect.
I'm no champion of insurance companies' bullshit, where that's what it is. But insurance is still a legitimate industry, every bit as much as, say, banking is (unless one is Jesus Christ in the year 32 AD). Insurance companies base premiums on level of risk. That's perfectly legitimate, and there's nothing wrong with it. If you live in a high-fire risk area, your risk of fire to your home is greater, no matter whether you have insurance or not; and all local homeowner's insurance premiums will reflect that.

And if you're in a state where there's a higher risk of accidentally causing more serious injury to a motorcyclist because more of them are un-helmeted, the liability risk to you is increased, regardless of whether you are insured or not. But if you do have auto liability insurance, your premium will reflect the enhanced liability risk that you bear.

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Fuckin' nanny state.

No. It's not about telling you to wear a helmet because it's best for you. It's about requiring you to wear a helmet as a way of keeping everyone else's liability risks down. That translates to lower premiums for those who are insured, and lower personal asset risk for those who are uninsured; but either way, it's an economic benefit to everyone in the state.

[Andy9o8 0]

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So post it. It would be very interesting to hear of how a helmet caused a death.

Do you know of the hangmans' noose?

Yep. It was used by executioners to hang people. How is that relevent?

I think he's referring to a cervical fracture known as a "hangman's fracture", which some believe can be caused by the cervical spine flexing against the fulcrum of the edge of a helmet. It's the type of injury, for example, which was Dale Earnhardt's cause of death.

It's a specious argument: that something that has a 99% chance of helping you also has a 1% of hurting you - so that 1% is the reason why you don't use it. It's like the old "thrown clear of the danger" argument that some people use against seat belts: 99% of the time, it's a crock of shit.

To Dan: if you have hard data to cite, then cite it.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I am not sure what kind of bug it was, all I know is my full face visor was full of yellow guts and it was such a huge smear that I was forced to pull over and clean my visor before I could continue on. Maybe all the open face lovers / none helmet lovers need to only stop for gas instead of stopping for gas and food. I guess they get their snacks along the way from all the bugs that fly into their mouths. But those bugs must hurt when they hit you in the face. I will never forget the day when one second I can see fine, the next second all I see is yellow bug guts.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So post it. It would be very interesting to hear of how a helmet caused a death.

Do you know of the hangmans' noose?

Yep. It was used by executioners to hang people. How is that relevent?

I think he's referring to a cervical fracture known as a "hangman's fracture", which some believe can be caused by the cervical spine flexing against the fulcrum of the edge of a helmet. It's the type of injury, for example, which was Dale Earnhardt's cause of death.

It's a specious argument: that something that has a 99% chance of helping you also has a 1% of hurting you - so that 1% is the reason why you don't use it. It's like the old "thrown clear of the danger" argument that some people use against seat belts: 99% of the time, it's a crock of shit.

To Dan: if you have hard data to cite, then cite it.

Hmmm...interesting. I still hope he posts the whole story. Seems I heard a similar tale many years ago of a rider who went doen and his helmet caught on a guardrail, breaking his neck. Seems moot considering what would have happened to his head without the helmet.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.