kelpdiver 2 #26 May 26, 2011 Quote>His reluctance to do harm to others was his undoing. True. Had he had less reluctance, we could had a handful of dead cops and a dead Marine instead of just a dead Marine. I guess all you can do is hope for that the next time. if it was the result of illegally aggressive police action, and lead to them behaving in more prudent manner, yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #27 May 26, 2011 Quote Awful lot of faith in a Huffington Post article. Naaa because it FITS the fucking story they want to believe. For example...they shoot 70 times and HIT HIM 60 times but he didn't die right away......RIGHT.......Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #28 May 26, 2011 QuoteAwful lot of faith in a Huffington Post article. Google the phrase "Jose Guerena" limited to the past 24 hours, and you'll get 62,000+ hits. Tossing aside the blogs, editorials and all that shit, some of them are straight-news articles from other news outlets. Tell you what: if you find other articles about this by reputable straight-news outlets that paint a materially different factual picture, by all means post the link(s) here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #29 May 26, 2011 The whole thing sounds like a case of 'bad intel'! Too often, raids are set-up based on what later turns-out to be bad information. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 May 26, 2011 Quote If armed men who do not announce themselves as cops break my door down, and I end up killing them all. Who is at fault? What are the rules? I was under the impression that if I answer there knock, they would have to show ID, Show Warrant and then break in if I refused or did not respond in the first place? In concept, you are legally entitled to defend yourself with lethal force in such a situation. But... 1) you have to survive the process 2) you're likely to get roughed up, and if they're acting this way in the first place, they may now move to falsely establish that they did announce themselves. 3) you're still going to jail, and you're still going to have to spend on a legal defense. This is true for almost any justified shooting, not of cops. No gun owner who is aware of this wants to have to use their gun. 4) Outcome of a he said, he said shooting will depend on what is found in the house and your record. If you have pot, or a prior history, your version of the story may end up being disregarded. If you're obvious a "upstanding citizen" with no obvious reason to shoot cops, then there's a better chance that it will eventually blow over. Still think I'd want to change towns though. These type of raids are inherently unstable. The cops want to minimize their risk from presumed bad guys, and the residents may or may not know what's going on, what to protect themselves as well. But the presumptions of legality favor the cops. other notes - it's irrelevant that the safety was on. The cops see a rifle pointed their way - they can fairly assume it's dangerous. - denied medical care - a bigger concern if it was an injury, not being shot 60 times. That sounds rather fatal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 May 26, 2011 Quote For example...they shoot 70 times and HIT HIM 60 times but he didn't die right away......RIGHT....... even for SWAT, that's an amazingly high hit rate. For a regular officer who rarely trains, unbelievable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scruffy 0 #32 May 27, 2011 Andy9o8, do you think (assuming that the huffpo story reflects reality) that these events warrant criminal action against the officers, worthy of professional sanctions against them, or could it be chalked up to a justified shooting of a potential threat? Hindsight is 20/20, but the way I see things if an officer wants to call himself SWAT he should be held to a higher standard.Peace, love and hoppiness Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #33 May 27, 2011 Far too few hard facts out yet. Need more facts from more sources. Some sources will undoubtedly conflict (in fact, already have conflicted). I don't want to make a snap judgment based on such early reports. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wsd 0 #34 May 27, 2011 Quote Ah, Internet Rambo. Spectre, spectre, is that you? I find that funny and anyone who knows me would laugh as well. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wsd 0 #35 May 27, 2011 QuoteQuote For example...they shoot 70 times and HIT HIM 60 times but he didn't die right away......RIGHT....... even for SWAT, that's an amazingly high hit rate. For a regular officer who rarely trains, unbelievable. Hallway fatal funnel, even a seeing eye dog could hit something that has nowhere to go. Hallway is roughly 36"-40" wide, if he was a big guy the hall was filled with torso. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #36 May 27, 2011 maybe the cops had too much icecream... scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #37 May 27, 2011 Quote Hallway is roughly 36"-40" wide, if he was a big guy the hall was filled with torso. Naaa I heard from my brothers pet dog that he was a skinny guy and he turned sideways ( what a sneaky little basterd) and the SECOND count was that they ONLY hit him 59 times because all these sorry cops were to busy laughing as he begged for his life in front of his little child.... But that was from a pet dog............Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
