Why do Americans hate their fellow Americans?

[freethefly 6]

Why is it? Americans seem to be their own worst enemy. They balk at helping their neighbor, yet scramble to get a donation off to another country! Is it solely to wave their "kindness" in the face of the rest of the world?

I would be particularly interested in what or friends in other countries think of Americas lack of compassion for it's own people.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[diverborg 0]

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Why is it? Americans seem to be their own worst enemy. They balk at helping their neighbor, yet scramble to get a donation off to another country! Is it solely to wave their "kindness" in the face of the rest of the world?

I would be particularly interested in what or friends in other countries think of Americas lack of compassion for it's own people.

Who's balking at helping their neighbor?
My state has been nothing but a giant disaster zone all year long and I've been astounded at how generous people have been with their time and money to help out a complete stranger in a time of need. They're literally coming from all over the country as well.

[freethefly 6]

Good answer. I do think, in times of large scale disasters, most will come to the aid of their fellow human. In general, how do you feel about healthcare and the debate concerning care for the poor? Most recent a report has shown that hospitals for profit are less likely to operate in areas that are predominately lower class. It also shown that healthcare professionals are less likely to work in lower class areas. Rural America being the hardest hit.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[JohnRich 4]

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Why is it? Americans seem to be their own worst enemy. They balk at helping their neighbor, yet scramble to get a donation off to another country!

You need to prove that what you're saying is actually true, before expecting us to disprove your hypothesis. Show us charitable donation totals both domestic and foreign.

[diverborg 0]

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Good answer. I do think, in times of large scale disasters, most will come to the aid of their fellow human. In general, how do you feel about healthcare and the debate concerning care for the poor? Most recent a report has shown that hospitals for profit are less likely to operate in areas that are predominately lower class. It also shown that healthcare professionals are less likely to work in lower class areas. Rural America being the hardest hit.

Ahhh, healthcare discussion, knew there was a catch.

Well to put it frankly, I'm all about taking care of the helpless, and I think most conservatives are (Keep in mind I don't necessarily consider myself conservative because I distance myself on a lot of their agendas as well). Its just that determining who is actually "helpless", and the means in which to do that are what is up for debate. I'd love to dive into that discussion, but not sure if I have the time an energy to do so.

I will go ahead and say, I don't mind the idea of govt healthcare programs for those that need it. Especially children, I'm just not particularly happy in the way we did it with the current bill. I think there were better ways to address our current problems that would cover more people and reduce cost, but that's a whole long discussion.

Edited.. What the heck, got a little time to blow.

I will go a little further and say that I think we would've been further ahead just purchasing private insurance for all the uninsured in the country rather than the bill we came up with. Just have a contract with a private insurer thats up for bid every few years, that has some very basic coverage that will keep folks and the healthcare industry out of bankruptcy. It would be like one gigantic group plan, but there needs to be relatively significant co-pays so the system doesn't get abused.

Anyway, thats my basic solution, determining how one gets covered under that massive group plan would still be up for debate. But I think it would be much more efficient than clogging up our ER's with Medicaid patients. Have you seen what an ER visit costs compare to a basic Dr's visit, yet we push medicaid patients through there instead of primary care physicians.

If I had all the time I'd love to crunch all these numbers and see how covering the current medicaid patients under a private insurer with a very basic plan with co-pays would compare to the current system.

Then I'd love to take it a step further, and just see what it would cost to take all the nations uninsured (noting that of course some of these shouldn't qualify for this plan if it ever existed) under that same concept and compare that to the newly adopted healthcare bill.

Or... Take a specific amount say $300/person or family to use as a voucher toward whatever plan they want. Believe it or not there are some basic high deductible plans you can get cheaper than that.

Lots of other options than the cluster of the current system or bill we just adopted, but if these folks are covered under private insurers, hospitals and practitioners would be much more likely to setup in these low-income areas because they will get paid. You saying that they tend to avoid these areas should tell us one thing. Medicaid is not paying enough to cover their expenses.

[freethefly 6]

Point taken, John.

As I see, America is not the largest contributor to charitable aid per GDP. Yet, America boast as being such. I do believe, for the most part, that people worldwide are willing to help each other.

What does bother me is the constant bickering between political parties and supporters of such when it comes to what some call "nanny state". This mode of thought seems to be in conflict with donations being used to help the poor. Would not the church be considered a form of socialism? If so, then any one person who donates to any charitable fund would be a supporter of socialism.
Why then would one complain when tax dollars are used to help the poor? I much rather see my taxes help those in need than for those dollars to pay a politicians high salary and healthcare. I would, also, rather those dollars not fund wars, but fund a health agenda that would promote better living that would eventually reduce health cost.

For 2009, individuals donations totaled $217.3 billion. Although, overall $307.75 billion (one link place this figure at $303.75b) was given in total. The total for 2010 individual donations is expected to range from $222 billion to $227 billion.

In comparison corporate giving in 2009 was only $14.1 billion.

http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/mind-soul/doing-good/2010-11-29-sharing-by-the-numbers-graphic_N.htm

http://www.nps.gov/partnerships/fundraising_individuals_statistics.htm

http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html

http://www.globalissues.org/article/35/foreign-aid-development-assistance

Some of what I have found that a large portion of donations are used to pay lucrative salaries.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/26/15-highest-paid-charity-ceos.html

I've yet to find a breakdown of donation usage per country, U.S. vs the rest. If any person knows of such a statistic, please post a link.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

Diverborg, I like what you are proposing. Also, you are right about the catch. This also ties in with a post from yesterday (What was Wrong). Generally, people are good. Even the bad neighbor is most likely to come to your aid if a tornado were to take out your house.

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I will go a little further and say that I think we would've been further ahead just purchasing private insurance for all the uninsured in the country rather than the bill we came up with. Just have a contract with a private insurer thats up for bid every few years, that has some very basic coverage that will keep folks and the healthcare industry out of bankruptcy. It would be like one gigantic group plan, but there needs to be relatively significant co-pays so the system doesn't get abused.

I like the premise of your thought. It does seem to be similar, in scope, to the HMO. The HMO was rife with abuse. Not by those who used it, but by those who ran it. I'm not sure if government oversight could had fixed the problem.
As of now, I have no healthcare other than the VA. The local VA has recently refused to treat my health concerns. That being HIV. My only other avenue is MoHealthnet. I would have to contribute $711.50 per month. This does not include medications or anything outside the scope of the plan. In all, I would be paying well over $1000.00 per month for care. I hope to be back to work sometime next month and to be free of the VA and never to have to use Healthnet.

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Anyway, thats my basic solution, determining how one gets covered under that massive group plan would still be up for debate. But I think it would be much more efficient than clogging up our ER's with Medicaid patients. Have you seen what an ER visit costs compare to a basic Dr's visit, yet we push medicaid patients through there instead of primary care physicians.

ER abuse seems to be the major pain in the back for the healthcare system. It beguiles me that people run of to the Er for a splinter or a runny nose and then balk when the bill comes in. TRICARE should be implemented in the civilian sector. My mother is enrolled in TRICARE. (I did read recently that the DoD is looking to overhaul TRICARE) http://www.tricare.mil/mybenefit/ProfileFilter.do;jsessionid=NJhYD610BJGgxhKWxwvnyt73GBqJFpgGy5cZ64vhLJ2MnxbTsxSC!434107299?puri=%2Fhome%2Foverview%2FWhatIsTRICARE

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Lots of other options than the cluster of the current system or bill we just adopted, but if these folks are covered under private insurers, hospitals and practitioners would be much more likely to setup in these low-income areas because they will get paid. You saying that they tend to avoid these areas should tell us one thing. Medicaid is not paying enough to cover their expenses.

I do like the idea of insurers bidding on the job. The lowest bidder would stand to make the most. Combined with a system similar to TRICARE and MEDICAID overall cost would be reduced dramatically. As we are now, without a system in place to promote better living the future of cost can only skyrocket and that will only trickle up to the wealthy.

Can donations be the answer to reducing cost? If each American over the age of 18 were to contribute $10.00 per month the intake would amount to $30,000,000,000.00 This is based on 250 million adults 18 and over contributing $10.00 per month times 12. An extra $120.00 per year per person would not break any persons bank. Combined with your idea, I think it sounds good.
Thoughts anyone?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[diverborg 0]

I just did some basic math to come up with an idea of how my ideas might compare to the new govt plan.

Based on several articles I've read it seems that the new plan will cover about 30 million more people for the cost of an additional $100 billion a year. Those are modest projections, and I say its unlikely that they'll come in under budget.

Ok, I'm on a group plan with a few thousand people and most would consider it far more luxurious than any plan that the govt should be offering as free healthcare. For my wife and I combined I checked my benefits statement and the cost is $765/month (keep in mind that stays constant regardless if we have 10 kids). But lets just play with high estimates here to give some illustration on how much better this bill could've been handled.

If we take those figures (surely a group plan of 30 million would get a slightly better discount), and just say $300 per person per month. (even though it would be a lot lower than that for a family plan, not to mention a more basic coverage plan)

Thats 3600/yr per person. Take that times 30 million and thats $108 billion a year. So basically for the same cost as the current bill, we could've covered everybody under a giant group "cadillac" plan that I pay for at work.

Everybody gets to keep their current plan, hospitals are getting paid, nobody's defaulting on bills except for maybe co-pays and deductibles. No govt control over your healthcare, no rationing, just a private insurance for everybody at the same price as the current plan.

Now figure in what an insurance company could actually bid for that job, you're looking at a lot lower number. Subtract however many people from that 30 million that have turned down group plans through their employer to save a few bucks at our expense. Make that plan a much more basic in its coverage. And also subtract all the families that are making 75,000 plus a year that could afford it on their own. And I bet we're looking at a number less than half of that. Plus imagine what decline in the cost in healthcare, when basically every patient is covered.

I'll stop there for now.

[diverborg 0]

Correction, the $765 is what my employer pays. I pay an additional $200. So basically 1000 for my wfie and I, plus however many young'ns we wished to have.

Either way, there's no reason the uninsured needs a plan as expensive as ours and I don't think the realistic projections would be that far off from the numbers I'm coming up with.

[freethefly 6]

Diverborg, that does sound good. I'll have to crunch your thoughts with mine before a sound reply.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Coreece 190]

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Diverborg, that does sound good. I'll have to crunch your thoughts with mine before a sound reply.

Time for a special liberal arts intermission while you ponder the impossible, brought to you by the Thievery Corporation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmWGaKgXnHM

The Richest man in Babylon:

There is no quidance in your kingdom
Your wicked walk in Babylon
There is no wisdom to your freedom
The richest man in babylon

Your beggars sleep outside your doorway
Your prophets leave to wander on
You fall asleep at night with worries
The saddest man in Babylon

The wicked stench of exploitation
Hangs in the air and lingers on
Beneath the praise and admiration
The weakest man in Babylon

There is no hope left in your kingdom
Your servants have burned all their songs
Nobody here remembers freedom
The richest man in Babylon

(scat)
babylon no get rich again
but to end up sick again
and you end up weak again
babylon
(scat)

babylon you run
you better know you you better understand
the rancher man you better hear what we say
babylon this is your final day
babylon this is your final call
read the writing that's on the wall
see divided we stand
and together we fall
you never know that
you not gon' catch me in a rat pack
we not gon' fall away from it jah
no way

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[diverborg 0]

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Time for a special liberal arts intermission while you ponder the impossible, brought to you by the Thievery Corporation:

Something to ponder as well...

First I'm a fiscal conservative, I know it sounds outrageous that I'd even support any notion that somebody get something that they don't work for, but ponder this first.

We live in a country that doesn't refuse emergency treatment, and I think most everybody would like to keep it that way. Because of that, where do you think somebody's going to go when they need to see a Dr if they're uninsured. To the ER where its waaaay more expensive. Who's paying for that now?
.
.
.
. Drumroll..... WE ARE!! We are paying for it both in taxes and the cost of our insurance being higher to cover for it. One way or another that money is going to be moving around. Now if everybody is covered regardless of who is paying for it, the cost per person on my theoretical scenario would be even less, and further decrease what an insurance company would be able to bid the job for in the future. And we won't have people going to the ER for the sniffles ringing up a $500 bill when a family doctor could've handled that for around $75.

Yes the rough draft may sound a little utopian, but letting private insurance companies compete for it sounds way better then the gobs of administrative waste and inefficiency with a govt run system. Not to mention avoiding all the fears of invasion of privacy, rationing when you're on your own plan, and control of our lives.

Just need to make sure we don't kill the incentive to remain on your own private plan. This plan would definitely need to have limitations to coverage. There is no way to get around some level of rationing on the govt plan when you need to stay within a budget.

[shropshire 0]

This is the worst type of generalisation and it misses the point of Charitable giving.

Everyone donates to charity at an individual level and based upon their individual moral compass.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

As an outsider what amazes me is the pure hatred between Americans simply because they support different mainstream political parties. Its beyond logic. Also the racial divisions are bizzare for a developed country, the racial prejudice from all sides is staggering.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[shropshire 0]

Same thing happens in parts of the U.K (Go to South Wales and big up any party other than Labour )

But I agree - hate on party lines in the States is well beyond daft.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rushmc 18]

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Why is it? Americans seem to be their own worst enemy. They balk at helping their neighbor, yet scramble to get a donation off to another country! Is it solely to wave their "kindness" in the face of the rest of the world?

I would be particularly interested in what or friends in other countries think of Americas lack of compassion for it's own people.

I dont know where you live, but that is not the way it is where I live.

As for what other countries think? I dont care

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

Dear Speakers Corner - Why do people that disagree with my subjective political leanings clearly have such hate deep down inside?
signed
Confused in Seattle

Dear Confused - Is that really a question?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[freethefly 6]

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Shropshire: Everyone donates to charity at an individual level and based upon their individual moral compass.

I respectfully disagree. Bill Gates does, as does Warren Buffett. I am sure that there are others at their level that does. However, $222 Billion (the low figure of the expected 2010 donations) is shameful when 400 individuals are worth far above that.
http://www.forbes.com/wealth/forbes-400/list

The net worth of the Forbes 400 is above one trillion dollars.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/22/news/companies/forbes_400/index.htm

There has to be something horribly wrong with a system when the top 1% holds more than 40% of the countries wealth.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

It is equally shameful when lower class individuals are more willing to donate to charity than the top 1% (Gates and Buffett excluded)

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Skyrad: As an outsider what amazes me is the pure hatred between Americans simply because they support different mainstream political parties. Its beyond logic. Also the racial divisions are bizzare for a developed country, the racial prejudice from all sides is staggering.

This is a part of my point. The division is amazing when the overall goal is similar. Every person should be enjoying what is good about America. No child should ever go to bed hungry (or in a cardboard box.) Nor, should any person suffer when there is healthcare that should be within reach.

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Shropshire: But I agree - hate on party lines in the States is well beyond daft.

The hate extends into the parties even amongst their own members. It is insane and part of the reason that nothing is getting done.

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Rushmc: I dont know where you live, but that is not the way it is where I live.

As for what other countries think? I dont care

Typical Marc Rush response. Nothing intelligent to add to any thread.
For the record, Mr. Rush, I live in the same country that you do. However, I do not reside in the world that exist only in your head. It seems to me, within the head of Marc Rush, all are living the American dream.
As for you not caring what others think of America? That is part of the problem, also.

Diverborg has provided some good ideas. Let's hear more positive input and let's leave the hate at the door.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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and let's leave the hate at the door.

Maybe you can start by realizing that just maybe, what Marc said was true for his area of the country instead of just slamming him for having the audacity to disagree with you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[freethefly 6]

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Dear Speakers Corner - Why do people that disagree with my subjective political leanings clearly have such hate deep down inside?
signed
Confused in Seattle

Dear Confused - Is that really a question?

You, more often than not, typically have good input to any given subject. I would like to hear your thoughts.
I admit that the thread title was designed to provoke response. Are not most titles designed to do so?

As for party leaning? I do not hold any political party close. My choice, as of today, for the next President is a Republican. That could change. My last choice was a Democrat. I am 49% on him at this point in time.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rushmc 18]

You assume I have hatred toward others. Far from it. Posts like yours I dismiss outright because I reject the premise to begin with.

I disagree with others. And they disagree with me. But it seems (and it shows up here regularly) that if someone stands their ground based on thier principals, they are labeled and beat down. A political example of this attempt to destroy Sara Palin. How about Dan Quale? Remember what happened to him? But Joe the dufuss Biden gets a pass?

So in this post you comment to intelligence. Do you expect a nice repsonse when you post like that? Maybe you dont care. Why do you hate so much (see, I can make assumptions too)

I know not all are living their dream. But for most, not all, they are living what they work for. I reject that all should have a life that is the same. It would be nice but it can never happen

I believe people and the gov to some extent should help when people need help. But I do not believe that we need the social programs that we have today.

I also do not care what other people have. Either in property or money. That is just plain petty IMO. My dad once told me that I should never worry about someone having more than I do. If I do, I will be worrying about it all the time

I disagree with those like dreamy boy, and you to some extent,, who believe that there is something wrong with people having a lot of money. I guess I feel it is none of my damned business.

And to the caring about what other countries think.
Why should I? I can never make them happy. As long as the US is successful and powerful other countries will not like us. Working to have them like us only will serve to make the US worse/weaker. (which is really all you want in the end)

The US has done more good, for more people and countries than any other in the history of man. Far from perfect but better than any other

I am proud of that fact.

So, you want a debate, talk to people like Wendy does. At least she shows respect to those with whom she disagrees..

The anger and vitriol from those like you and kallend will only serve to me to keep dismissing you off hand.

Or, we can exchange. On most topics you and I will never agree. To me that is fine. I just think you are wrong and I disagree with you. As opposed to those who question my intelligence and character when they disagree with me.

In the end, I think it will most likely be a complete waste of my time to type this post. You will still treat those you disagree with the same

The hatred you post about is a projection from you. The hate is yours, not mine

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

I'd like to, but I just pretty much think your entire leading post is flawed from the start. it's equivalent to a bonfire post of "why are freeflyers all so uptight?" - it's false, overgeneralized, and serves only a tiny group's ego (i.e., people that are crappy at freeflying).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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So, you want a debate, talk to people like Wendy does. At least she shows respect to those with whom she disagrees

actually, I think Freethefly has be trying, lately

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 18]

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and let's leave the hate at the door.

Maybe you can start by realizing that just maybe, what Marc said was true for his area of the country instead of just slamming him for having the audacity to disagree with you.

That is what liberals do. How can anybody be so stupid as to disagree with them

I have found the easiest way to drive them fucking nuts, it be confident in my position and stand my ground

But you do have a point. I could post a dozen stories and comments I have recieved over the years from lineman, (who came here to help with storm restoration) as to how nice people are here and how willing they are to help a neighbor.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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So, you want a debate, talk to people like Wendy does. At least she shows respect to those with whom she disagrees

actually, I think Freethefly has be trying, lately

Maybe, but his last post to me did not reflect that.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln