So Why Did the U.S. Fight its Civil War?

[kelpdiver 2]

the 400 issue isn't relevant. That's an adequate sample size, especially when 46% vote that way.

The question about random selection of the sample is the appropriate question to ask.

[airdvr 200]

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>46 percent of GOP voters in the state think interracial marriage should be illegal.

All 13 of them

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[pirana 0]

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States rights. The war was fought as the result of disagreement over what rights individual states could control.

What State rights in particular?

Anti-Federalism predates even the formation of The Union. Before there was even a specific issue to respond to, there was very strong distrust for centralized power. It took 7 decades for the debate to ferment into all out conflict - and when it did the issues revolved around commerce in general and the threat to southern commerce in the form of the abolition of slavery.

But saying slavery caused the war would be oversimplification. It was just the catalyst issue at the time. The debate has never gone away and has manifested itself around issues of education, voting rights, and even marriage.

So the short answer is that the debate began as an arguement in principle with no specific complaint other than how the rules should be written (because of a some well founded distrusts of central authority); and the war began when the ongoing debate threatened tthe cornerstones of the southern economy.

There are many good texts on the early debate over states rights - but it is best to look at ones that includes the original documents related to the topic (by Jeffreson, Hamilton, and Madison above all; but also Washington, Yates, Gerry, Jones, Mason and others). Revionists and even well intentioned historians do not do them justice.

From this student's perspective I believe we are fortunate that the Federalist's had the vision to see the havoc multiple powerful legislatures would wreak on a future US of A - and that they won the day. But the debate has still not been settled, and maybe that is good, as it evolves with the issues of the day - as is evidenced by George Wallace needing to be removed from the university steps as he tried to assert his state's right to deny school entry based on skin color.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Andy9o8 0]

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Can we be certain that all votes to ban interracial marriage are cast exclusively by a caucasian demographic?

Absolutely not. We can infer from previous polls that it's likely the overwhelming majority are.

Exactly. Those who think this is "Republican vs. Democrat" are so overdosed with the standard news-network tenor of American discourse that they're missing the point.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Fucking Hell

It's as simple as that. You see it with simple clarity because, not being an American, you can step back from the canvas; thus to see it best.

[shropshire 0]

Some times it just takes a simple chap to show you the way

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[muff528 3]

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Can we be certain that all votes to ban interracial marriage are cast exclusively by a caucasian demographic?

Absolutely not. We can infer from previous polls that it's likely the overwhelming majority are.

Exactly. Those who think this is "Republican vs. Democrat" are so overdosed with the standard news-network tenor of American discourse that they're missing the point.

Maybe you could point that out to the Original Poster who quoted only the Republican results without question while lamenting the failure of the Civil War to completely wipe out these toothless, back-country rubes. But ...IMO, the whole purpose of this "poll" had nothing to do with interracial marriage per se. The purpose was to directly tie racism and intolerance to Repubs and more specifically to possible Republican presidential contenders. Again, speculating and IMO, the poll backfired when the results for the Dems bombed and now they are to be released "in the coming weeks" (never) with the hope that it will be forgotten. Or they could just lie. The problem with lying about those results is that another poll done by others might consistently show their BS and render even the Repub results as unbelievable. Better to just keep quiet and not publish uncomfortable results. The fact that the respondents are now labeled Repubs and "non-Repubs" is one clue. If the Democrat results were any less intolerant by even a little they would have published results for all demographic groups for comparison. Maybe we got the truth and nothing but the truth ....but we didn't get the whole truth.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Maybe you could point that out to the Original Poster who quoted only the Republican results without question while lamenting the failure of the Civil War to completely wipe out these toothless, back-country rubes.

From a 20,000 foot view, it appears that the other side actually won the civil war (not the side the history books tells us who won). NASCAR rules in America. Sports Car Racing (ALMS), Indy Car and Formula One take a back seat to NASCAR. Yup it looks the history books were wrong. Now get back in yer car and start making them left hand turns before I sick Billy Bob on you.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[muff528 3]

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......NASCAR rules in America. Sports Car Racing (ALMS), Indy Car and Formula One take a back seat to NASCAR......

Yep! If you can't run with the big dogs get back on the porch

PS: IIRC, a lot of snowbird BillyBobs were more than a little ticked off when they couldn't get their NASCAR fix on ESPN a couple of years ago .....eh?

Edit to add: It might be fun to get a bag of popcorn and watch a few of these people who disparage NASCAR get into a 3400 lb. car and try to make a left turn at 190+ (that's 305+ kph for our northern friends). ...just sayin'

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Edit to add: It might be fun to get a bag of popcorn and watch a few of these people who disparage NASCAR get into a 3400 lb. car and try to make a left turn at 190+ (that's 305+ kph for our northern friends). ...just sayin'

I have never driven a real world Late Model, Nationwide, Camper Truck or Sprint Car (and chances of me driving one of these in the real world is slim to nil). But thanks to www.iracing.com I have driven the virtual versions and one thing I did learn driving these cars in iRacing was going around in circles making only left hand turns was easy. But going around in circles making only left hand turns and being fast was not so easy.

Oh and NASCAR may not rule supreme on ESPN anymore, but it is king of the hill on Speed TV. Of course Speed TV is owned by NASCAR. LOL

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[muff528 3]

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Edit to add: It might be fun to get a bag of popcorn and watch a few of these people who disparage NASCAR get into a 3400 lb. car and try to make a left turn at 190+ (that's 305+ kph for our northern friends). ...just sayin'

I have never driven a real world Late Model, Nationwide, Camper Truck or Sprint Car (and chances of me driving one of these in the real world is slim to nil). But thanks to www.iracing.com I have driven the virtual versions and one thing I did learn driving these cars in iRacing was going around in circles making only left hand turns was easy. But going around in circles making only left hand turns and being fast was not so easy.

Oh and NASCAR may not rule supreme on ESPN anymore, but it is king of the hill on Speed TV. Of course Speed TV is owned by NASCAR. LOL

I've never raced cars but I do have a lot of respect for the skills of all these guys and all classes of racing. But I did some powerboat racing years ago and sometimes you would find yourself making a (very) hard left turn even when you didn't want to.

[PiLFy 0]

You don't honestly believe the Civil War was fought over interracial marriage, do you? It was about money, like most wars. It was also fought about 150 years ago. Seventy years ago, most Americans believed the Japanese & Germans to be the most evil people on the earth. We now feel very differently.

Edited to add: Oops, I forgot. This is SC. Y'all love to argue in here...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Not sure if you missed my reference so I will repeat it again:

Going around in circles making only left hand turns and being fast was not so easy.

Oh and there is a common misconception that in NASCAR they only make left hand turns. But in order to come out of a left hand turn, one needs to turn the wheel to the right.

Have I succeeded in hijacking this thread yet? It never was my intention.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Andy9o8 0]

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Y'all

Aha.

[muff528 3]

Just to answer the question in the thread title (from the horses mouth):

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union, .....

......I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free."
~ A. Lincoln, letter to Horace Greeley, Aug 22, 1862

Another quote somewhat relevant to the thread:
“Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed.” ~ A. Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

I owned a 1970 Superbird for about 6 years.( Petty ran one like it with a 43 on the door)... think I might be able to do it??????

Track days with that were FUN....

[PiLFy 0]

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Y'all

Aha.

Uh_Huh... Andy, I've several black friends, plus Latino & Asian friends, as well. Sh*t, I even know a couple of lawyers that aren't too bad.

[muff528 3]

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I owned a 1970 Superbird for about 6 years.( Petty ran one like it with a 43 on the door)... think I might be able to do it??????

Track days with that were FUN....

Why not! Danica can do it! (get video)
(70 Superbird ...noice ride!!)

[Amazon 7]

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I owned a 1970 Superbird for about 6 years.( Petty ran one like it with a 43 on the door)... think I might be able to do it??????

Track days with that were FUN....

Why not! Danica can do it! (get video)
(70 Superbird ...noice ride!!)

I wish I still had it.. but at 4 MPG..... and only running on 104 octane Sunoco...( now you would have to burn AvGas ) Its not something I would want to drive alot. Not to mention every local yocal in site that wants to pull you over so he could look at the engine.

[muff528 3]

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I owned a 1970 Superbird for about 6 years.( Petty ran one like it with a 43 on the door)... think I might be able to do it??????

Track days with that were FUN....

Why not! Danica can do it! (get video)
(70 Superbird ...noice ride!!)

I wish I still had it.. but at 4 MPG..... and only running on 104 octane Sunoco...( now you would have to burn AvGas ) Its not something I would want to drive alot. Not to mention every local yocal in site that wants to pull you over so he could look at the engine.

4 MPG sounds bad but gas was what ...35 or 40 cents? That musta been back in the Sunoco "Dial-a-Grade" days. You could mix your own fuel right there at the pump!Did they ask "Izzat a hemi?" or "Ya got a cam in there?"

[Amazon 7]

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I owned a 1970 Superbird for about 6 years.( Petty ran one like it with a 43 on the door)... think I might be able to do it??????

Track days with that were FUN....

Why not! Danica can do it! (get video)
(70 Superbird ...noice ride!!)

I wish I still had it.. but at 4 MPG..... and only running on 104 octane Sunoco...( now you would have to burn AvGas ) Its not something I would want to drive alot. Not to mention every local yocal in site that wants to pull you over so he could look at the engine.

4 MPG sounds bad but gas was what ...35 or 40 cents? That musta been back in the Sunoco "Dial-a-Grade" days. You could mix your own fuel right there at the pump!Did they ask "Izzat a hemi?" or "Ya got a cam in there?"

After the A Rab Oil embargo.. that shit was over a buck a gallon especially for premium..and yes.. it was a 426

[muff528 3]

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I owned a 1970 Superbird for about 6 years.( Petty ran one like it with a 43 on the door)... think I might be able to do it??????

Track days with that were FUN....

Why not! Danica can do it! (get video)
(70 Superbird ...noice ride!!)

I wish I still had it.. but at 4 MPG..... and only running on 104 octane Sunoco...( now you would have to burn AvGas ) Its not something I would want to drive alot. Not to mention every local yocal in site that wants to pull you over so he could look at the engine.

4 MPG sounds bad but gas was what ...35 or 40 cents? That musta been back in the Sunoco "Dial-a-Grade" days. You could mix your own fuel right there at the pump!Did they ask "Izzat a hemi?" or "Ya got a cam in there?"

After the A Rab Oil embargo.. that shit was over a buck a gallon especially for premium..and yes.. it was a 426

Well, on the plus side ...if you had that car now and someone asked to see the engine you could tell them to google it and look at the images. (Or you could send them to that cool site that fills out the search field automatically!)

[DaVinci 0]

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So Why Did the U.S. Fight its Civil War?

Succession issues were MUCH more than just 'racist' issues.

"My paramount object in this struggle, is to save the Union and it not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it..."

""I have no purpose directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

".....I have never sought to apply these principles to the old States for the purpose of abolishing slavery in those States. It is nothing but a miserable perversion of what I have said, to assume that I have declared Missouri, or any other slave State shall emancipate her slaves. I have proposed no such thing. "

All Lincoln.

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46 percent of GOP voters in the state think interracial marriage should be illegal

Well, that is stupid.

[Andy9o8 0]

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So Why Did the U.S. Fight its Civil War?

Succession issues were MUCH more than just 'racist' issues.

Sorry; I can tell from numerous responses, including yours, that I obviously didn't phrase the thread title as I meant the message. I didn't literally mean, "What was the real cassus belli in the Civil War?"; I meant more like "Why did we fucking bother preserving the Union - i.e., what use was it - if this was destined to be the result?"

[billvon 2,467]

>From a 20,000 foot view, it appears that the other side actually won the civil war

Was in BestBuy a while back, watching Pearl Harbor on a bigscreen TV. The sound system was making the explosions very loud.

"It's so strange to watch this. My father was there that day," said one guy.

"And we're watching it on a Japanese TV," noted another.