What does this say about your "God"?

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Staking your life on a non-existent 'being' is just plain dumb.

It's not like you're risking anything by believing in God.

Belief in God is reasonable. Disbelieving Him is the unreasonable thing. It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God. It's a blind leap to disbelieve in Him, because you have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral. Belief in God is reasonable.

We have a 'special' word reserved for that particular argument ...

It's .... Bollocks!

...awaiting a better argument to reply to...

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So the bits in the bible about being treated like royalty because you believe IS rubbish.
Thought so.

thanks

I believe and I expect quite the opposite of being treated like royalty. Having challenging things happen to you and then getting the big picture view of the situation opens your eyes. The testing of your faith develops perseverance.

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Hijackers killed their captives during negotiations.
Sailboat hijack
Very sad.

Everyone has to go sometime. We generally don't get to choose the time or the place. But this is one of those things that cause people who don't believe in God to bring out the argument of "If there is a God, why would this kind of thing happen." That's crazy talk. Thinking that God is going to treat everyone like royalty. Everything that happens in this world gives us the opportunity to grow. Imagine if you never let your kid get hurt or lose their money or experience things that happen in the world.
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

I’m sure Jean and Scott Adam, Philis Macay and Bob Riggle considered it pure joy, my brother, when they faced these particular trials. Gosh they were lucky.

.

Isn't it possible that during this ordeal, they either turned back to God or it strengthened their faith? Either way, you never know when it's your turn to go, so don't wait to develop your personal relationship with God.

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Staking your life on a non-existent 'being' is just plain dumb.

It's not like you're risking anything by believing in God.

Belief in God is reasonable. Disbelieving Him is the unreasonable thing. It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God. It's a blind leap to disbelieve in Him, because you have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral. Belief in God is reasonable.

We have a 'special' word reserved for that particular argument ...

It's .... Bollocks!

...awaiting a better argument to reply to...

Suit your self but you'll be waiting a long time.

Religion just isn't worth it.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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Everything does need a designer.

Therefore, God needs a designer. And God's designer needs a designer. And God's designer's designer needs a designer. And so on and so on.

The concept of infinity seems much simpler (yet still complex) to me if I just leave out the God stuff. But that's just me.

[SpeedRacer 1]

God, by the definition of believers, does not have a designer. God is eternal, so the rules of cause and effect do not apply. God lives "outside" of time.

You can leave God out, but then what caused the Big Bang? Doesn't that have to have a cause as well? The only solution for the start of the universe is that there had to be someone or something to which the temporal rules of A-caused-B-to-happen do not apply.

(oh, and by the way, I DO believe in the Big Bang and in evolution.)

Speed Racer
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God, by the definition of believers, does not have a designer. God is eternal, so the rules of cause and effect do not apply. God lives "outside" of time.

You can leave God out, but then what caused the Big Bang? Doesn't that have to have a cause as well? The only solution for the start of the universe is that there had to be someone or something to which the temporal rules of A-caused-B-to-happen do not apply.

See, this is where the reasonable argument ends. It's fair to ask what caused everything except for what caused God. "God is eternal, so the rules of cause and effect do not apply." Convenient answer, but totally made up, and neither provable nor dis-provable at this very moment. I'll just stick with "There is a lot I don't know, and I'm OK with that, but I'll continue trying to learn."

[BillyVance 34]

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Hijackers killed their captives during negotiations.
Sailboat hijack
Very sad.

The fact that any of the pirates survived the takeover speaks badly for our forces. Piracy on the high seas warrants summary hanging, walking the plank and/or being keelhauled.

Any time we identify a "mother ship," it should be replaced immediately with a hole in the water.


BSBD,

Winsor

I've wondered why we don't just make that happen? We have the technology. Just fucking do it!

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Meso 38]

Without this being an attack on you, I can only assume you have little knowledge on theoretical physics and some of the topics you're delving into here.

Just because your brain is set to think a certain way, it definitely doesn't mean that it's right. The universe is a lot different than what you're used to here on earth, the universe doesn't play by the same rules. Why do you think Einstein ended up dying without being able to make a conclusive rebuttal against the idea of quantum mechanics. He believed like you that nothing could be random, he believed in God and refused to settle for what other scientists were providing evidence for... He ended up spending decades working on a way to combat it but failed.

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It’s not reasonable to think "wow, look at that. Spontaneous generation of ripples!" Now, the water itself didn't cause it. Something outside of the water had to cause it. Like our world, our universe, it didn't create itself. Something outside of it had to create it.

I don't think you realize the irony here, as this was one of the scenarios which brought forth proof of the atom and later to the idea of quantum mechanics where electrons were shown to exist without purpose and could exist in a 'random' state. A state that would put forth the idea that challenges previously conventional thinking of relativity.

You seem to think that time exists in a single universal measurement. If you do, you're sadly mistaken. Time is so very relative and your understanding of how the universe works is so very generic. Earth time is merely a measurement for humans on earth, in the reaches of space your concept of time is, well nothing.

So no, God did not create time since there is no universal time. Man created time or the concept of it.

Another lovely flaw in your theory which relies so very heavily on the theory of relativity is that if everything follows a set path and nothing exists randomly or by chance. Then you need to address the fact that the universe is constantly expanding and think about tracing it back through it's ages to it's original much much smaller form.

That's the long winded version of it... Here's the shortened version. You just said God exists outside of time and outside of our 'rules'... Now the exact same idea can be put forward to particles, and this is where you get quantum mechanics. Particles that exist in a behaviour that seems to contradict our understanding of the normal human world. There's a lot to the world that hasn't been explained yet, but there's also a lot of theories that make a lot more sense than your religious one.


Your morality issue is almost too weak to even address...

Nothing you said countered my proposal that morals exist, but that they are part of the logical process of thought. Choices that are made by brain not by God. Or are you going against what other Christians say in which case you've got a lot of prior questions to answer.

To say that people prior to God's little Jesus creating fiasco had morals because God was still present, is suggesting that these non-believers whom had never heard of the concept of God where having their morals dictated to them by God. The problem with that is that they would then not have 'free will', if God did indeed give 'free will' to man and did not intervene with our thought process then these people in the past, then those peoples morals could not come from him. If on the other hand God somewhere placed the concepts of morality into their heads, he could have placed the idea of his existence there too and saved em from hell. Next you'll say dogs have souls.

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Everything does need a designer.

Therefore, God needs a designer. And God's designer needs a designer. And God's designer's designer needs a designer. And so on and so on.

The concept of infinity seems much simpler (yet still complex) to me if I just leave out the God stuff. But that's just me.

I guess I mistyped. Everything in our world/universe/realm/dimension needs a designer. I believe that God created our world and for that to be possible he couldn't have been in it. You can look inside an automobile engine all day, but you have to look outside of it to find the designer. Since I don't believe God to be part of our universe, which is a universe that requires a designer for everything, the same rules don't apply. Theoretical physicists believe that other universes would have completely different laws (gravity is sideways, red is blue, etc.).

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God, by the definition of believers, does not have a designer. God is eternal, so the rules of cause and effect do not apply. God lives "outside" of time.

You can leave God out, but then what caused the Big Bang? Doesn't that have to have a cause as well? The only solution for the start of the universe is that there had to be someone or something to which the temporal rules of A-caused-B-to-happen do not apply.

(oh, and by the way, I DO believe in the Big Bang and in evolution.)

Agreed. People who don't believe in a creator believe that every single thing in the entire world that has ever existed required a designer EXCEPT the big bang. I can't except that as something to live by.

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God, by the definition of believers, does not have a designer. God is eternal, so the rules of cause and effect do not apply. God lives "outside" of time.

You can leave God out, but then what caused the Big Bang? Doesn't that have to have a cause as well? The only solution for the start of the universe is that there had to be someone or something to which the temporal rules of A-caused-B-to-happen do not apply.

See, this is where the reasonable argument ends. It's fair to ask what caused everything except for what caused God. "God is eternal, so the rules of cause and effect do not apply." Convenient answer, but totally made up, and neither provable nor dis-provable at this very moment. I'll just stick with "There is a lot I don't know, and I'm OK with that, but I'll continue trying to learn."

It's very fair to ask what caused God. I don't believe that anyone on Earth will ever know. I believe that God created the universe with the rules that we know. For that to be possible he has to exist outside of our universe and therefore outisde of our known laws and rules. Maybe once we figure out how his universe operates, we could answer your question. I went more in depth in a prior post so read that one if you wish.

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People who don't believe in a creator believe that every single thing in the entire world that has ever existed required a designer EXCEPT the big bang.

Where do you get this from?

I don't believe in a "creator." This has nothing to do with whether I believe everything else requires a designer. Actually, I have no idea whether everything that has ever existed required a designer. How would you know such a thing? You would first need to have knowledge of everything that has ever existed, and I don't believe that anyone has anything even close to that.

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Isn't String Theory an attempt to solve Einstein’s problem? Maybe it’s very complex and can’t be solved in a lifetime, or many lifetimes. Either way, at one point in time people knew the Earth was flat and at another, people knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. The way we know the world changes constantly and God’s word stays the same.

I don't know how you got the idea, but I absolutely don't think that time is in a single universal measurement. I started learning about time when I was like 10 with Bill Nye the Science Guy. Obviously, I've delved deeper since. So by your way of looking at it, there is no such thing as time and I was created at age 23 and have not moved forward. Time exists but it is relative. There isn't an absolute that I know of.

I don't disbelieve the idea that our universe was once very small. I simply don't believe that there once was a random mass and that it spontaneously exploded and now I can watch proxy flying on my iPhone. The Bible doesn't give the specifics on exactly how God created the universe.

I don't know where you're going with the particles, but yes I know that electrons seem to move around randomly, and that certain elemental particles have been teleported. There's a lot going on out there, but again the only constant is God's word.

Morals don't dictate what we do. I've known that steeling was immoral for as long as I can remember, but I've stolen a candy bar or two when I was a kid. That's where free will is. I knew it was wrong, but took the candy. Morals simply tell us, deep down, what is right. Free will lets us go against it if we need to satisfy ourselves in the now.

I’d also like to say thanks for the good debate. I work with less than studious people and don’t get to argue to such an extent very often.

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People who don't believe in a creator believe that every single thing in the entire world that has ever existed required a designer EXCEPT the big bang.

Where do you get this from?

I don't believe in a "creator." This has nothing to do with whether I believe everything else requires a designer. Actually, I have no idea whether everything that has ever existed required a designer. How would you know such a thing? You would first need to have knowledge of everything that has ever existed, and I don't believe that anyone has anything even close to that.

But it does have something to do with things requiring a designer. It's a reality that the things we see and use were created by someone or something. That's just how it is. The only exception seems to be that people that don't believe in a God say it's ok for the universe to have created itself. My N.O. Xplode needed a creator, my Pyramid Hefeweizen needed a creator, Parachutist needs a creator, yet you're comfortable with saying that the most beautiful, complex, and vast thing in our world did not require a creator. I just can't accept that.

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"God’s word stays the same"

Funniest irony in the entire thread.
Seriously.

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It's a reality that the things we see and use were created by someone or something. That's just how it is.

See, to me, that's what the argument for a creator comes down to: "That's just how it is." Which has never worked for me.

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My N.O. Xplode needed a creator, my Pyramid Hefeweizen needed a creator, Parachutist needs a creator, yet you're comfortable with saying that the most beautiful, complex, and vast thing in our world did not require a creator.

And you're comfortable with comparing the most beautiful, complex, and vast thing in our world to beer and skydiving magazines?

I'm not trying to win you over to my way of thinking. Just always trying to understand and figure out how to live comfortably in a world where most people seem to believe differently than I do. And, after all, it's all "belief" and not "fact," either way. It's helpful for me to see "God" as a metaphor, though I'm still trying to figure out the proper translation for it. Perhaps something along the lines of "all that cannot be understood/explained."

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It's a reality that the things we see and use were created by someone or something. That's just how it is.

See, to me, that's what the argument for a creator comes down to: "That's just how it is." Which has never worked for me.

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My N.O. Xplode needed a creator, my Pyramid Hefeweizen needed a creator, Parachutist needs a creator, yet you're comfortable with saying that the most beautiful, complex, and vast thing in our world did not require a creator.

And you're comfortable with comparing the most beautiful, complex, and vast thing in our world to beer and skydiving magazines?

I'm not trying to win you over to my way of thinking. Just always trying to understand and figure out how to live comfortably in a world where most people seem to believe differently than I do. And, after all, it's all "belief" and not "fact," either way. It's helpful for me to see "God" as a metaphor, though I'm still trying to figure out the proper translation for it. Perhaps something along the lines of "all that cannot be understood/explained."

They are just things that exist. I could use the Large Hadron Collider or the F-22 (both of which neither compare to the splendor of the universe, but did require a creator). I just didn't have the LHC or the F-22 in front of me for a quick example.

Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. I've loved science my whole life and still enjoy learning about it and that has only strengthened my belief in God. Even with a somewhat scientific mind, God does make sense.

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"God’s word stays the same"

Funniest irony in the entire thread.
Seriously.

Please explain...

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It's a reality that the things we see and use were created by someone or something. That's just how it is.

See, to me, that's what the argument for a creator comes down to: "That's just how it is." Which has never worked for me.

Sorry, didn't catch the part earlier. I was just saying that everything that we know requires a creator. I didn't mean that's just how it is to try to get my belief across. I was saying that, well, our stuff needs a creator.

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Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact.

If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, then I don't think it can have much to do with science as we know it. With that definition, science can't prove it one way or the other. Unless you were saying earlier that science may one day be able to explain God? (And possibly then go on to explain what, if anything, created God?) In which case I would agree that, if some sort of "God" does exist, it is somehow knowable. That is why I consider myself an atheist rather than an agnostic.

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It's an interesting area of debate we enter into now, I had the same debate with a Jehovah's witness who wanted to convert me in the main road a couple years ago.

You see, if God is all knowing and all powerful he understood perfectly prior to his creation of man that they wouldn't follow (not all, not even majority). He understood man's actions despite the idea of giving them free will, so I will say to you what I said to the man on the street. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be pre-programmed by God to follow his orders than have free will and burn in hell because he never showed me enough evidence.

Different view points have different criteria for what constitutes good and evil. Hedonism seeks to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. With Christianity, all things (blessing and suffering) work together for good. In my personal experiences, some of the most profound blessings I have experienced were preceded by some of the most intense suffering.

It is hard to know what hell really is. My belief is that those who have chosen to reject God are better off there in an environment they can comprehend than they would be in heaven

...

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I was just saying that everything that we know requires a creator.

Who created the oceans, the dirt, the distant planets and solar systems? There are a lot of things that we see and use that have no known creator. I don't think that the fact that they are complicated, working objects means that they must have a designer/creator. To me, that's where the "that's just the way it is" fails.

But again, the idea of "God" seems to be very similar to my "I don't know."

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It is hard to know what hell really is. My belief is that those who have chosen to reject God are better off there in an environment they can comprehend than they would be in heaven

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."

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Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact.

If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, then I don't think it can have much to do with science as we know it. With that definition, science can't prove it one way or the other. Unless you were saying earlier that science may one day be able to explain God? (And possibly then go on to explain what, if anything, created God?) In which case I would agree that, if some sort of "God" does exist, it is somehow knowable. That is why I consider myself an atheist rather than an agnostic.

I'm basing it on the facts of design, cause, reliability, and morality.

Everything requires a designer (not everything with one little exception of the universe).

Everything needs a cause as to why it happens.

There is a general moral standard to Christians and Atheists alike.

We live in a very reliable world. Water boils at the same temperature every time (pure water, same atmospheric pressure, etc). Science literally depends upon the reliability of nature. For science to be of any use at all, it demands that once they do something in a test tube, they can do it again. One thing that people don't think about is that science can't prove the continued reliability of nature. They can say that something has happened every day up until now, but they can't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that it will happen again. So science relies on faith. Science and faith aren't at odds. Science demands faith. Though it’s not an absolute proof, God is a reasonable explanation for reliability.

I don't think that science will ever be able to completely explain God.