US child appeals against being tried for murder as an adult

[rehmwa 2]

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Determining probability of recidivism like you propose is attractive, but difficult in the extreme.

so what? it's the primary purpose of society based justice. It's not just "attractive" - it's what is right. So hanging onto the unproven subjective rules (like age) is just simpler/lazier - but less just and not effective at protecting society.

it's much better than allowing the bias of people's emotions concerning anyone, including children that have adult concepts of judgement and consequences.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Keeping a 16 year old rapist / murderer from continuing this path of criminal behavior is slightly different from denying him the ability to vote, get drunk, drive or have certain jobs. Arbitrary legal ages for those things do not endanger the person or society. Arbitrarily deciding that the same 16 year old will not serve but a nominal amount of time for his crime is whole new world.

I accept that discussion - assessment of the individual as an adult for the protection of society. allowable.....but for administrating benefits to the individual that do not impact the safety of the rest of society, we can take a more broad brush

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18.

It's not the primary topic of this thread, but I'd be curious to know how this rule is applied to Holocaust-era crimes. Let's say you have an old Nazi guy in his eighties who is accused of heinous Nazi war crimes back when he was 17. Even a fairly brief, slap-on-the-wrist punishment for this guy might be a de facto life without parole sentence given his present age. Is there any precedent for this situation?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[dreamdancer 0]

what a cracking debate this has turned out to be - well done to all concerned

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[billvon 2,400]

>Except when that "child" has committed a crime so cold and calculated
>that he/she is determined to be a threat to society far past any term of
>incarceration given a juvenile.

Yep. Just as when an adult commits a crime so nasty that he is determined to be a serious threat, the normal rules should not apply to him, and should be treated like a foreign terrorist . . .

Nope, that doesn't work either. If you want to change the laws concerning juvenile sentencing, then by all means start lobbying to change them. Until then they get treated as prescribed by the applicable laws.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you want to change the laws concerning juvenile sentencing, then by all means start lobbying to change them. Until then they get treated as prescribed by the applicable laws.

Uh, that's exactly what's happened.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>Except when that "child" has committed a crime so cold and calculated
>that he/she is determined to be a threat to society far past any term of
>incarceration given a juvenile.

Yep. Just as when an adult commits a crime so nasty that he is determined to be a serious threat, the normal rules should not apply to him, and should be treated like a foreign terrorist . . .

Nope, that doesn't work either. If you want to change the laws concerning juvenile sentencing, then by all means start lobbying to change them. Until then they get treated as prescribed by the applicable laws.

When a person, regardless of age or race is a foreigner and committs terrorist acts then they are treated as a foreign terrorist.
When a person, regardless of age or race, committs crimes in an adult manner then they should be treated as an adult.
Seriously, Bill, it is some fucked up thinking to say this kid should not be tried as an adult unless he is proven to be criminally insane.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[virgin-burner 1]

the US is a 3rd world country..

what a shame, really.

maybe you should introduce the stoning again for unfaithful spouses, it has worked in other countries for hundreds of years.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davjohns 1]

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Determining probability of recidivism like you propose is attractive, but difficult in the extreme.

so what? it's the primary purpose of society based justice. It's not just "attractive" - it's what is right. So hanging onto the unproven subjective rules (like age) is just simpler/lazier - but less just and not effective at protecting society.

it's much better than allowing the bias of people's emotions concerning anyone, including children that have adult concepts of judgement and consequences.

It's not just difficult. It would bankrupt society. We have to be able to transact some cases at lower levels. If there is evidence that a higher level of scrutiny is warranted, you go to the next level. The evaluation and application of resources begins at the lowest level and goes up. If you had read the whole post, you would see that I said jumping to CSI level of investigation of every case is not tenable.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[davjohns 1]

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>The child, having assumed an adult role and being adjudicated as having
>adult understanding of those actions, is afforded the consequences an adult in
>similar posture would endure.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? The reassignment of his status to something he is not without his consent. If a friend of yours got into a domestic dispute with his wife in the house down the street, and he was arrested, and they decided to try him as a foreign enemy combatant, would you consider that OK?

>If you discovered a dog had a disease that is normally associated with
>cats, you would treat that dog with the medicine that cured that disease.

Even if the medicine was useful to cats but would kill the dog? If that were the case, treating a dog like a cat could result in a dead dog - and wind the vet up in a courtroom.

There's a reason vets don't generally treat dogs like cats - and a reason we don't generally try children as adults.

You argued herein that a person has to consent to be labeled as an adult before they can be tried as one. Are you for real? If you had read my argument, you would know that is part of the problem. Someone of a 'child' age could commit a heinous crime and use their youth as a shield despite having adult faculties. Of course they would not consent.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[rehmwa 2]

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It's not just difficult. It would bankrupt society. We have to be able to transact some cases at lower levels. If there is evidence that a higher level of scrutiny is warranted, you go to the next level. The evaluation and application of resources begins at the lowest level and goes up. If you had read the whole post, you would see that I said jumping to CSI level of investigation of every case is not tenable.

Sorry, but I read this that laws that are just placebos are ok and true context isn't feasible.

Else you are just agreeing with me that level of scrutiny should tie off to level of impact.

The shortcoming is that we don't have the societal structure or members with the intelligence and morals to provide judges and law enforcement individuals with sufficient character to actually work the issues dispassionately and with the morals to do it right. So we have a billion rules to try and compensate for the shortcomings of human beings.

perhaps it's true, that's sad

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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You argued herein that a person has to consent to be labeled as an adult before they can be tried as one. Are you for real? If you had read my argument, you would know that is part of the problem. Someone of a 'child' age could commit a heinous crime and use their youth as a shield despite having adult faculties. Of course they would not consent.

BV and Kallend love circular arguments - it's dizzying. It's much easier to argue what you want to hear rather than try to understand the other person's context. This is a subset of why much of population can't grasp the need for judgment in terms of individual assessment, rather they opt for simplistic solutions applied in self destructive complexity. That leaves us with trying to enforce standard "Process" in the case of law and justice vs doing it right, doing it arbitrarily, or just tying our hands with a ton of subjective rules.

It might not be just....but at least it's equal when run as intended.

That's a pretty amazing result to evolve from the human condition and all it's variation - it's not a bad result, considering.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,400]

>When a person, regardless of age or race is a foreigner and committs terrorist
>acts then they are treated as a foreign terrorist.

Fair enough. The corollary, therefore, is:

"When a person, regardless of age or race is a child and commits crimes then they are treated as a child."

[rehmwa 2]

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>When a person, regardless of age or race is a foreigner and committs terrorist
>acts then they are treated as a foreign terrorist.

Fair enough. The corollary, therefore, is:

"When a person, regardless of age or race is a child and commits crimes then they are treated as a child."

No, your purposeful obtuseness aside, but if you want to write the corollary correctly, you left out one words.

"When a person, regardless of age or race is a child and commits crimes then they are treated as a child criminal."

this is still your intent, but with less of the emotive bias showing

'child' replaces 'foreigner'
'crime' replaces 'terrorist acts' (and the other variation)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,400]

>"When a person, regardless of age or race is a child and commits crimes then
>they are treated as a child criminal."

Fair enough.

[rehmwa 2]

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>"When a person, regardless of age or race is a child and commits crimes then
>they are treated as a child criminal."

Fair enough.

well, BDraft certainly miss stated his intent (stated) messing up adding the word 'foreign' to "foreign terrorist" - seems to me, the act of terrorism is much more important than the randomness of nationality

but you did catch him in a semantics game, congrats

unless you're trying to imply something about his sub-conscious......but that's a painful tactic and not as productive to go on tangents that lead nowhere

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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You argued herein that a person has to consent to be labeled as an adult before they can be tried as one. Are you for real? If you had read my argument, you would know that is part of the problem. Someone of a 'child' age could commit a heinous crime and use their youth as a shield despite having adult faculties. Of course they would not consent.

BV and Kallend love circular arguments - it's dizzying. It's much easier to argue what you want .

What exactly is circular about saying "A child is not an adult"?

Children are NOT adults.

That's all there is to it.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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You argued herein that a person has to consent to be labeled as an adult before they can be tried as one. Are you for real? If you had read my argument, you would know that is part of the problem. Someone of a 'child' age could commit a heinous crime and use their youth as a shield despite having adult faculties. Of course they would not consent.

BV and Kallend love circular arguments - it's dizzying. It's much easier to argue what you want .

What exactly is circular about saying "A child is not an adult"?

Children are NOT adults.

That's all there is to it.

And cold, calculating murderers are not children...regardless of physical age.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[winsor 186]

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insanity...

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Lawyers for a child in Pennsylvania who was 11 when he allegedly shot and killed his father's pregnant fiancee attempted today to persuade an appeals court not to try him as an adult under America's harsh system of juvenile justice.

Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole. He would become the youngest child in US history to be sentenced to be incarcerated forever.

The US is the only country where juveniles are serving life imprisonment without parole under the so-called "life means life" policy. Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/25/us-boy-accused-murder-appeals

The problem here is treating the problem from a legal standpoint, when it is clearly medical.

The solution to this issue is to make abortion safe and legal until the fetus can vote. Problem solved.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Nightingale 0]

Having worked on both the prosecution side and the defense side in the criminal justice system, and having been a teacher and worked with children, I don't think anyone under 16 should ever be tried as an adult. Kids just don't process consequences like adults do.

That said, there needs to be better provisions for keeping someone incarcerated longer if they age out of the juvenile system and could still be a danger to society, and following juveniles who have been incarcerated long-term with support and psychiatric evaluations rather than just releasing them to learn how to cope as an adult in a world they left as a child.

[rehmwa 2]

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What exactly is circular about saying "A child is not an adult"?

Children are NOT adults.

That's all there is to it.

ok, when the question is all about debating the legal definition of children vs the legal definition of adult, your argument isn't circular - it's moronic. Or at least it's moot.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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What exactly is circular about saying "A child is not an adult"?

Children are NOT adults.

That's all there is to it.

ok, when the question is all about debating the legal definition of children vs the legal definition of adult, your argument isn't circular - it's moronic. Or at least it's moot.

It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. The morons are those who think renaming children as adults makes them adults.

Even a child who commits a particularly heinous crime is NOT an adult.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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Having worked on both the prosecution side and the defense side in the criminal justice system, and having been a teacher and worked with children, I don't think anyone under 16 should ever be tried as an adult. Kids just don't process consequences like adults do.

Agreed

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That said, there needs to be better provisions for keeping someone incarcerated longer if they age out of the juvenile system and could still be a danger to society, and following juveniles who have been incarcerated long-term with support and psychiatric evaluations rather than just releasing them to learn how to cope as an adult in a world they left as a child.

Agreed. Sociopaths need special treatment, but renaming them as something they are not is still absurd.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

if you won't join the discussion's intent just to be smug that's fine.

What is YOUR definition of adult then? Is it an age? Is it a level of displayed maturity? Is there an age "range" that you'd be comfortable with a mixed answer? Do you bias by gender on the question? or background?

Inquiring minds want to know.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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Inquiring minds want to know.

but know better than to expect any engagement from him.