I'm becoming an atheist

[skydiverkeith 1]

Wow, you are a passionate person. I would love to defend my position as you are, but I just don't feel that strongly about it. All of what you say does make perfect sense.

Although, if everyone in the world was Christian and lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ, the world would be a much better place.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[dontsplatmatt 0]

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Although, if everyone in the world was Christian and lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ, the world would be a much better place.

You know not how wrong you are.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)




If everyone in the world was Christian and lived by the demented teachings of Jesus Christ, the world would be enslaved, raped or dead.

If everyone in the world was moral and lived by the moral laws of nature, the world would be a much better place.

[philh 0]

Im not aware that the 19 hijackers of 9/11 showed particular evidence of ppsychological disoderes, now were they undereducated. What seem to unite them was an unshakeable belief in their cause.
Perhaps you have some evidence otherwsie?

[mnealtx 0]

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By the way the pain receptors in a fetus work just fine.

Between 24 and 28 weeks yes.

http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/fetal_pain.html

There's a few that suggest lower ( around 20 - 22 weeks ) but those are claims by pro-life bigots who always lack the proper scientific studies to back it up. Vast majority of scientists suggest 25-28 weeks)

You make a lot of ASSumptions about people, don't you?

I was one of those sub-24 week babies, and I can assure you that my pain receptors were working just fine.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skydiverkeith 1]

Lol, I know. I've never been religious, but have studied Christianity out of curiosity. It's my understanding that when Jesus came around (new testament), he threw out the old testament crap and wanted his teaching to take its place, so all that old testament stuff you quoted doesn't apply to contemporary Christians.

I was specificly refering to the words of Jesus Christ. Can you quote me some fucked up things he said? (not being patronizing. I am sincerely curious if any one has examples of Jesus contradictions, bad teachings, etc...)

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[mnealtx 0]

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If everyone in the world was moral and lived by the moral laws of nature, the world would be a much better place.

'Moral laws of nature' - and just where do those come from, pray tell?

Show us where these 'moral laws of nature' are written down and followed.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dontsplatmatt 0]

They are inherent. "god" does not have the ability to deem things right and wrong or to make certain actions moral and others immoral. "he" can only reflect what our morality tells us which as my last post showed is not always the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U51JT8dTHTs&feature=related

Watch all 3 parts when you get the chance.

EDITED to make the link clicky.

[philh 0]

The world would be better if they followed Christs teahcings?
So should they burn his opponenets as he said in John 15:6

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned."

[mnealtx 0]

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They are inherent.

Evidently these 'moral laws of nature' aren't as inherent as you think, since people break them.

I don't do youtube - it's blocked over here, sorry.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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I was one of those sub-24 week babies, and I can assure you that my pain receptors were working just fine.

Really? How? How can you possibly assure us your pain receptors were working just fine prior to week 24? I'm really curious.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[dontsplatmatt 0]

Some people may break them as a result of weakness of the will, however people know what is right and wrong and will tend to do the right thing.

Please tell me where you believe morality comes from. Surely not from the Bible or from "god." If that were true, "god" could tell you that it is right to rape (as "he" does in the Bible), and you would not hesitate to jump on the next pretty young lady you lay eyes on. Because "he" says it is right to rape and you disagree (I would hope), your morals obviously do not stem from "god."

[mnealtx 0]

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I was one of those sub-24 week babies, and I can assure you that my pain receptors were working just fine.

Really? How? How can you possibly assure us your pain receptors were working just fine prior to week 24? I'm really curious.

How? Because I was one of the original "kilogram kids". I was born prior to 24 weeks, and was in an incubator with IV's for several weeks before going home.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skydiverkeith 1]

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The world would be better if they followed Christs teahcings?
So should they burn his opponenets as he said in John 15:6

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned."

I looked up the passage in the New International Version and found this

6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Just looks like some vague metaphor to me...
Not sure how you interpreted it as you did.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[Bolas 5]

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They are inherent.

Evidently these 'moral laws of nature' aren't as inherent as you think, since people break them.

I don't do youtube - it's blocked over here, sorry.

Just because people break them, doesn't mean they aren't known.

Religious people know the 10 Commandments and they break them too.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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Although, if everyone in the world was Christian and lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ, the world would be a much better place.

If everyone in the world was Nazi and lived by the teachings of Hitler, the world would be a much better place.

Ah what the hell, it was time for this thread to die anyways.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[mnealtx 0]

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Some people may break them as a result of weakness of the will, however people know what is right and wrong and will tend to do the right thing.

Then they're not inherent as you claim.

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Please tell me where you believe morality comes from. Surely not from the Bible or from "god." If that were true, "god" could tell you that it is right to rape (as "he" does in the Bible), and you would not hesitate to jump on the next pretty young lady you lay eyes on. Because "he" says it is right to rape and you disagree (I would hope), your morals obviously do not stem from "god."

Ah - so, people can break 'nature's moral law' because of weakness of will, but anyone that breaks 'God's law' is because God told them to?

How do you square that with Muslim religious laws, pray tell? Or is that only applicable to Christians?

I think you have some holes in your reasoning, sport.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,400]

>Evidently these 'moral laws of nature' aren't as inherent as you think,
>since people break them.

Of course. Doesn't me we don't break them. We've managed to ignore most natural behavioral drives because of that big brain of ours.

[dontsplatmatt 0]

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Ah - so, people can break 'nature's moral law' because of weakness of will, but anyone that breaks 'God's law' is because God told them to?

How do you square that with Muslim religious laws, pray tell? Or is that only applicable to Christians?

You completely misinterpreted my post. I was pointing out to you that "god" does not give you your morals. You know what is right and wrong, and you choose to do what is right despite what "god" says.

Please don't be so defensive. I'm not picking on Christianity. I'll summarize for you. Religion (and I promise you there are others out there aside from Christianity ) does not provide humans with their moral compasses, and in fact it usually does quite the opposite often guiding people to commit heinous and violent acts (i.e. suicide bombers who are usually Muslim).

[mnealtx 0]

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Ah - so, people can break 'nature's moral law' because of weakness of will, but anyone that breaks 'God's law' is because God told them to?

How do you square that with Muslim religious laws, pray tell? Or is that only applicable to Christians?

You completely misinterpreted my post. I was pointing out to you that "god" does not give you your morals. You know what is right and wrong, and you choose to do what is right despite what "god" says.

Please don't be so defensive. I'm not picking on Christianity. I'll summarize for you. Religion (and I promise you there are others out there aside from Christianity ) does not provide humans with their moral compasses, and in fact it usually does quite the opposite often guiding people to commit heinous and violent acts (i.e. suicide bombers who are usually Muslim).

You state that, you have yet to prove it - just as you have to prove 'natural' moral law.

It is society that creates 'moral laws', not God and not Nature.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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I was one of those sub-24 week babies, and I can assure you that my pain receptors were working just fine.

Really? How? How can you possibly assure us your pain receptors were working just fine prior to week 24? I'm really curious.

How? Because I was one of the original "kilogram kids". I was born prior to 24 weeks, and was in an incubator with IV's for several weeks before going home.

And you claim to remember pain from that age?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Shotgun 1]

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Religion doesn't make people adopt children and do good things. Good people just do good things.

And regarding your statement about religion not killing people, there are several religions that promote killing people for several different reasons. In any case that a person was killed because it was promoted by religion, had that religion not existed or the individual who did the killing not practiced the killing, it would not have happened. Umm, so yes, religion does kill people.

I don't think a group of people would have flown a couple of planes into buildings killing themselves and thousands of others just because they were bad people.

Bad people do bad things. It takes religion to make good people do bad things.

If religion is responsible for the bad things people do in the name of religion, then it is also responsible for the good things people do in the name of religion.

But I think that people are responsible for their own actions. And if they do things for religious reasons (whether "good" or "bad" - both subjective terms), they ultimately made the decision to do it, so it is a reflection of their own character.

[dontsplatmatt 0]

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Ah - so, people can break 'nature's moral law' because of weakness of will, but anyone that breaks 'God's law' is because God told them to?

How do you square that with Muslim religious laws, pray tell? Or is that only applicable to Christians?

You completely misinterpreted my post. I was pointing out to you that "god" does not give you your morals. You know what is right and wrong, and you choose to do what is right despite what "god" says.

Please don't be so defensive. I'm not picking on Christianity. I'll summarize for you. Religion (and I promise you there are others out there aside from Christianity ) does not provide humans with their moral compasses, and in fact it usually does quite the opposite often guiding people to commit heinous and violent acts (i.e. suicide bombers who are usually Muslim).

You state that, you have yet to prove it - just as you have to prove 'natural' moral law.

It is society that creates 'moral laws', not God and not Nature.

Many, including myself, disagree.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazine/09babies-t.html?_r=1

EDIT: I will admit that society does have a large impact on developing morality, but we are not born completely lacking a sense of right and wrong dependent on some cosmic being to guide us in the right direction.

[billvon 2,400]

>just as you have to prove 'natural' moral law.

That's trivial. Many animals that do not have religion have clearly observable moral laws. Rats will deprive themselves of food to avoid shocking a rat in another cage. Vampire bats will share blood with other bats who did not find any, even when no reward is forthcoming. Chimpanzees care for handicapped chimpanzees and do not display their usual intimidation posturing to them. Elephants will try to free other animals (even of different species) from their cages in zoos. Larger dominant wolves will handicap themselves during play fights, rolling onto their backs, assuming a submissive posture and allowing themselves to be bitten, so that other younger wolves can develop the skills they'll need to become pack leaders.

From the Telegraph:
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Animals can tell right from wrong
Animals possess a sense of morality that allows them to tell the difference between right and wrong, according to a controversial new book.


By Richard Gray, Science Correspondent
Published: 9:00PM BST 23 May 2009
Animals can tell right from wrong
Research suggests that it's not just humans who have a moral compass

Scientists studying animal behaviour believe they have growing evidence that species ranging from mice to primates are governed by moral codes of conduct in the same way as humans.

Until recently, humans were thought to be the only species to experience complex emotions and have a sense of morality.

But Prof Marc Bekoff, an ecologist at University of Colorado, Boulder, believes that morals are "hard-wired" into the brains of all mammals and provide the "social glue" that allow often aggressive and competitive animals to live together in groups.

He has compiled evidence from around the world that shows how different species of animals appear to have an innate sense of fairness, display empathy and help other animals that are in distress.

Prof Bekoff, who presents his case in a new book Wild Justice, said: "The belief that humans have morality and animals don't is a long-standing assumption, but there is a growing amount of evidence that is showing us that this simply cannot be the case.

"Just as in humans, the moral nuances of a particular culture or group will be different from another, but they are certainly there. Moral codes are species specific, so they can be difficult to compare with each other or with humans."

[dontsplatmatt 0]

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Lol, I know. I've never been religious, but have studied Christianity out of curiosity. It's my understanding that when Jesus came around (new testament), he threw out the old testament crap and wanted his teaching to take its place, so all that old testament stuff you quoted doesn't apply to contemporary Christians.

Well apparently he didn't do a good enough job convincing daddy that his book was bad because the Bible is still printed with both the Old and the New Testaments. Contemporary Christians believe that Jesus and "god" are the same entity and that the entire Bible, not just the New Testament, is the holy word of this entity transcribed by humans. They read and believe (are deceived by it) on a daily basis, so I fail to see how the Old Testament doesn't apply to them. That being said, many Christians do like to pick and choose what they follow from the Bible which contradicts their very definition of "god." They claim he is a perfect being which means that nothing imperfect and come from him. The Bible is his word, so it must be perfect. If the Bible is perfect, it cannot become outdated because that is an imperfect quality. Therefore, the entire Bible is perfect and Christians should enslave, rape and kill everyone it commands them to.

[skydiverkeith 1]

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Lol, I know. I've never been religious, but have studied Christianity out of curiosity. It's my understanding that when Jesus came around (new testament), he threw out the old testament crap and wanted his teaching to take its place, so all that old testament stuff you quoted doesn't apply to contemporary Christians.

Well apparently he didn't do a good enough job convincing daddy that his book was bad because the Bible is still printed with both the Old and the New Testaments.

\
You can get the new testament by itself at most book stores, and Jesus' words are usually highlighted.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock