So - I have an idea how to close off the leak in the gulf.

[Lucky... 0]

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The pressures at that depth is roughly equal to the weight of a Ford Focus pressing down on an area the size of a US 50-cent piece. A lot of hydrulic systems operate at far less pressures.

Many much higher. Most airline acft hyd systems are 3k psi on 1/4" lines, the B-1B is twice that. Point taken, it's very high.

Which systems operate at less pressure than the well? A toilet? I don't know constriction equip, but I would guess it's 3k-ish too.

***It's not an easy job and I don't envy those whose responsibility it is to come up with an answer.

Fortunately they have certain people on internet clubs to keep these engineers in-line with new ideas.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Which systems operate at less pressure than the well?

A lot of agricultural equipment runs in the 1200-1500 psi range for one example. Do some research if interested, there ae many more. (BTW, I was talking about the water pressure...not the well pressure.)

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Fortunately they have certain people on internet clubs to keep these engineers in-line with new ideas

I think that was part of the posters argument, that all ideas should be looked at regardless of how stupid they appear and why he/she inquired as to where they could submit an idea.
I have been on many group discussions where something totally unrelated and idiotic led an engineer to think of a problem from a different point of view and find a viable solution. That is why in a brainstorming session all ideas are considered and discussed.

Reminds me of the time a self proclaimed aircraft , finance, political, and law expert couldn't explain what effect changing the rotation of the prop on a single engine airplane would have on the takeoff handling characteristics...or what aluminum alloys commonly used inaircraft could be welded, which couldn't, and why.
Probably a good thing I don't own anything he works on.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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Which systems operate at less pressure than the well?

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A lot of agricultural equipment runs in the 1200-1500 psi range for one example. Do some research if interested, there ae many more. (BTW, I was talking about the water pressure...not the well pressure.)

That's 1/2 the equation; what size lines? You said the weight of a Focus (2500lbs-ish) the size of a 50 cent piece (about 2 inches??). So if ag equip ran 1500 psi in 1/4" lines, the well is not >.

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Fortunately they have certain people on internet clubs to keep these engineers in-line with new ideas

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I think that was part of the posters argument, that all ideas should be looked at regardless of how stupid they appear and why he/she inquired as to where they could submit an idea.

And that was Bill's point, which I thought of at the very start of this thread; good intentions can = a pain in the ass. Ever been in a situation where people who don't have a clue try to help? It really works in reverse and makes a situation worse, as it takes up time and creates confusion / kills focus. Now there is really no problem with that here, no one that matters is perusing the internet forums looking for ideas.

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I have been on many group discussions where something totally unrelated and idiotic led an engineer to think of a problem from a different point of view and find a viable solution. That is why in a brainstorming session all ideas are considered and discussed.

Perhaps this is a room full of engineers.....just a guess. If ya don't understand the most rudamentary aspects of this matter, geology, physics, oceanography, hydraulics, etc then it's like trying to get 1st graders to do calculus.

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Reminds me of the time a self proclaimed aircraft , finance, political, and law expert couldn't explain what effect changing the rotation of the prop on a single engine airplane would have on the takeoff handling characteristics...or what aluminum alloys commonly used inaircraft could be welded, which couldn't, and why.
Probably a good thing I don't own anything he works on.

I answered all your questions correctly, you looked for ridiculous semantics to find fault.

***As for acft sheetmetal

I am an expert, I've done it directly for 15-20 years, acft period since I was 17 and actually have been around acft since I was basically born. Am I a metalurgist, stuctural engineer, etc? No, but at teh same time, as many time sin engineering, the engineers consult the mechs and come to an agreement as to how it will be done, teh mechs do it and the engineers draw it up to look like the part. Explain why they might do that at times, esp during repairs, rather than draw it up and then have the mech complete the repair. Of course you refused to answer any more questions after you failed to know what 'swell-n-draw' was in regard to riveting.

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For legal expert

I'm very knowledgeable, but no expert, never claimed to be.

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As for finance expert

I just post the data that you and yours run from. No one has ever shown me a major fed tax cut thta has worked. The best anyone has done was to submit the Clinton cap gains cut from 28% to 20%, an obsure reference anyway, but even still, tax receipts were going up like crazy before that, tailed off a bit right after that. So you tell me, show me a cut since you think tax cuts help the masses and the gov to operate more effficiently.

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As for political expert

That would have to be a political strategist and/or historian; I have never proclaimed to be an expert at either.

What I find funny is that you claim to be an engineer, yet you don't brag up what you design, produce or anything else. I've sent pics to a member of the Wing X tips I've installed, a tricky SOB when installed in conjuction with Sportsman cuffs, but you ha to know that, Mr Sheetmaetal engineer and expert. Experience has shown me that in design I want an engineer, in application I want a tech who has performed X task. So tell me, what do you design, what is your pride-n-joy accomplishment? Or is it just about criticizing others w/o an accomplishment of your own?

Counter-rotating props: What I told you was that it aids in stopping P-factor, which is true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-rotating_propellers

The advantage of such designs is that counter-rotating propellers balance the effects of torque and p-factor, eliminating the problem of the critical engine.

So where is that incorrect?

Weldable aluminum: 6061 T-6. Anything canbe welded if you're good enough, but 6061-T6 is the most desireable and most commonly welded aluminim in practice, it has the most reliable record. MD-80 (and probably others) door (bag pit and entry) theshold plates are a bonded stainless and aluminum (not sure which alloy). They most likely do this for corossion prevention on the bottom side and stainless durablility on the top side as it will be taking abuse. Our welder tried welding that bastard up and it went haywire; we was unable to do it. Unfortunately you weren't there to help him .

Tell me what you do, I've told all what I do.

[billvon 2,434]

>At least I have the want to try to fix it.

Which is all well and good. But until you prove you're a citizen I am afraid anything you suggest will be completely worthless. Can't have illegals taking away the 'right to help' that only US citizens possess.

[turtlespeed 212]

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>At least I have the want to try to fix it.

Which is all well and good. But until you prove you're a citizen I am afraid anything you suggest will be completely worthless. Can't have illegals taking away the 'right to help' that only US citizens possess.

I have no issue with that.
I will gladly show proof.
I would be exstatic to show proof, because that means someone out there is checking!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,434]

>I will gladly show proof.

Cool! If you post your birth certificate, that would be reasonable proof.

[turtlespeed 212]

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>I will gladly show proof.

Cool! If you post your birth certificate, that would be reasonable proof.

As soon as you can legally and properly identify yourself as an enforcement agent qualified to accept such documents.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,434]

>As soon as you can legally and properly identify yourself as
>an enforcement agent qualified to accept such documents.

I'm not; no one here is.

I would have been really surprised if you had actually done what you demand others do. But this is SC, where people are happy to blather on as long as they don't actually have to do anything - so no shocker here.

[turtlespeed 212]

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>As soon as you can legally and properly identify yourself as
>an enforcement agent qualified to accept such documents.

I'm not; no one here is.

I would have been really surprised if you had actually done what you demand others do. But this is SC, where people are happy to blather on as long as they don't actually have to do anything - so no shocker here.

Please show where I , what did you say . . . "demand others".

I will be happy to show any LEO or prospective employer my credentials.

In fact, I would be, as I said earlier, EXSTATIC, that someone is actually checking.

I would also fine the contractors using illegals to the maximum penalty. I would be exstatic about doing that too. That means that the illegal activities would be helping compensate the LEAs that are combatting the illegal activity.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,434]

>I will be happy to show any LEO or prospective employer my credentials.

You offered your advice HERE, not to a prospective employer. You complained that no one was doing more HERE to help with the blowout. You also support the idea that anyone helping fix it must show credentials.

So show your credentials - if you have the courage of your convictions, that is. Or just go back to bitching that others won't do what you yourself refuse to do. Perhaps you could rejoin the thread where you were complaining about that asshole Obama who won't even prove his citizenship to your satisfaction.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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What can I do to get that idea somewhere to be tested?

No - I'm not a mechanical engineer or anything of the like.

I have an idea and it is relatively simple, and might be implemented pretty easily.

I was at work today when a situation made me think how to stop a burst pipe and voila - we have a solution.

One thing I don't know is what the actual pressure of the oil coming out is, and how that would affect the device.

OK - so it looks like the pressure can get pretty substantial with the volume -

SO - here is my idea:

Take several thousand yards of this stuff and put small flotation devices at the connection to somewhat carry the weight as it descends.

Then make a bladder manifold out of thick vulcanized rubber, with several ports that can hook up to these hoses. Build a closable valve onto the end of the bladder manifold. Hook up a few of the hoses that are attached to some kind of storage device at the surface.

Push a pump deep into the hoses to help out just in case the oil woun't flow up the hose even though it is boyant compared to the water around it.

Lastly - secure the whole thing by taking a heavy duty innertube and slipping it over the pipe, slip the bladder manifold in place and let the hoses start filling up and the pressure is released through the filling of the hose and the valve at the top of the bladder.

Over lap the innertube over the bladder manifold and inflate to seal. Then slowly close the valve on top. If there needs to be less pressure, then open the valve and attach another hose. Repete this process until all the pressure can be contained into the vinyl hoses and let it rise to the surface.

It could work. It's not a permanent fix, but it would keep the oil from infiltrating the ocean.

I also know it is over simplified, but I think it is better than any idea posted thus far.

A former Nasa employee had this same idea and it is in the works and a possible idea that may actually get used. She was on Hannity yesterday (radio).

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[futuredivot 0]

Not even bothering to quote-but do you have any idea how fucking ridiculous that makes you sound?


Yeah-go hit the disable switch-I'm good with it, it needed to be said

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[kallend 1,648]

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>I will gladly show proof.

Cool! If you post your birth certificate, that would be reasonable proof.

Is THIS what you're looking for?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

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>I will be happy to show any LEO or prospective employer my credentials.

You offered your advice HERE, not to a prospective employer. You complained that no one was doing more HERE to help with the blowout. You also support the idea that anyone helping fix it must show credentials.

So show your credentials - if you have the courage of your convictions, that is. Or just go back to bitching that others won't do what you yourself refuse to do. Perhaps you could rejoin the thread where you were complaining about that asshole Obama who won't even prove his citizenship to your satisfaction.

NONE of you that are posting are qualified to see them.

Come up with an official that is qualified to examine them and I will.

Or take what Divot said to heart and admit that what he said is true about how this whole thing makes your whining sound.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Belgian_Draft 0]

-Let's see...the weight of a Focus pressing down on an area the size of a half dollar. Hmmmmm....that just could be force/area, which could be psi? Just maybe??? Size of the lines doesn't matter....2300 psi is 2300 psi whether in a hydraulic line or at the bottom of a column of water. There is a difference between force and pressure.

- Sure most are a pain in the ass, but that doesn't mean they are all worthless.

-Not always a room full of engineers. Often we have people from production lines, even janitors and those with CJ degrees, sit in on discussions to get views from "outside the box".

-No, you never answered my question correctly. The only thing you said was "P-Factor!" over and over and over... The question was how the change in direction influenced handling, not how rotation regardless of direction influenced handling. You didn't know then, you still don't.

-Sure 6061-T6 is very common and weldable. But it cannot be welded autogenously...do you know why? It's very important if you go to weld on it. But 6061-T4 is often used instead if the part is to be welded. Do you know why? It's pretty important, esp. if you work on aircraft. What of 7075? What would you do if you needed to weld two sheets?

-Without seeing the part and knowing how it was bonded I can't say if I would have been able to help.

-I've told you what I do, but I feel no need to "brag" about it.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/metal/Sheet-And-Plate-Metal-Work/Autogenous-Welding.html

So what? Is it the end of the earth if 6061 cannot be welded autogenously? Just use TIG. Are you trying to impress with $100 words/processes? For starters, very little is welded on acft airframes anyway, it's mostly riveted. Then even if it requires welding, so use Tig or another process; why is it even worth mentioning that autogenous welding is not an option?

6061 is the most weldable acft aluminum, a fact I knew 20-30 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy

Can't even see why it's worth mentioning that 6061 cannot be welded autognously.

As for 6061-T4, 6061-T6511 is more often used in acft as it's harder, 6061 isn't as hard an alloy as 7075-T6 and fittings, which are pretty much all that is welded in acft, need to be hard. I've yet to see a skin welded on an acft airframes. Very few parts are welded and it's basically just fittings. Even that, most fittings are machined if possible, as with stringer bathtub fittings, etc.

Welding 2 sheets, never seen it on acft, big or small. Tell me where on acft that that would be done; be specific. You're thinking trailer, trying to correlate the two stuctures. If a trailer structurally fails, you lose your load. If an acft struturally fails, people die. Think about it and how silly welding 2 skins together would be on acft, skins are located on the tube of the acft (airline), the tube must expand / contract with pressurization, so that would be catastrophic to have 2 sheets welded at the ends. Tell me, how would they join 2 sheets of they did, on acft skins. How would they mill areas of the skin if they wanted high and low points (what process)? How do they design acft skins so that if there is a rip, it doesn't extend?

Remember, this isn't a trailer, you can't transpose that logic over.

[futuredivot 0]

Totally not relevant but sort of interesting if you play with airplanes, I think that laser welding is starting to see some use on some Airbus panels maybe the 318 or 380-which would be sheet material-don't know what that mean at the bottom of the sea and it was just a snippet I heard and may have misremembered-The A in A and P is just the crap that gets in my way-don't pay much attention to it

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[yourmomma 0]

Not directed at you turtle. Does anyone know why there were not multiple fail safes in place to avoid this. It seems to me that from a cost/ benefit analysis. Not fully preparing for this was not only environmentally irresponsible but fiscally as well. Or were the fail safes in place and this particular failure was not accounted for.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/metal/Sheet-And-Plate-Metal-Work/Autogenous-Welding.html

So what? Is it the end of the earth if 6061 cannot be welded autogenously? Just use TIG. Are you trying to impress with $100 words/processes? For starters, very little is welded on acft airframes anyway, it's mostly riveted. Then even if it requires welding, so use Tig or another process; why is it even worth mentioning that autogenous welding is not an option?

6061 is the most weldable acft aluminum, a fact I knew 20-30 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy

Can't even see why it's worth mentioning that 6061 cannot be welded autognously.

As for 6061-T4, 6061-T6511 is more often used in acft as it's harder, 6061 isn't as hard an alloy as 7075-T6 and fittings, which are pretty much all that is welded in acft, need to be hard. I've yet to see a skin welded on an acft airframes. Very few parts are welded and it's basically just fittings. Even that, most fittings are machined if possible, as with stringer bathtub fittings, etc.

Welding 2 sheets, never seen it on acft, big or small. Tell me where on acft that that would be done; be specific. You're thinking trailer, trying to correlate the two stuctures. If a trailer structurally fails, you lose your load. If an acft struturally fails, people die. Think about it and how silly welding 2 skins together would be on acft, skins are located on the tube of the acft (airline), the tube must expand / contract with pressurization, so that would be catastrophic to have 2 sheets welded at the ends. Tell me, how would they join 2 sheets of they did, on acft skins. How would they mill areas of the skin if they wanted high and low points (what process)? How do they design acft skins so that if there is a rip, it doesn't extend?

Remember, this isn't a trailer, you can't transpose that logic over.

"Is it the end of the earth if 6061 cannot be welded autogenously? Just use TIG"
That's freakin' funny! I'm going to print that out and hang it above my desk!

Aircraft skins that are welded? How about the space shuttle fuel tank. Important enough for ye? Nope, it's not 7075. The newer tanks are made of an alloy that is much harder to weld than even that.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Totally not relevant but sort of interesting if you play with airplanes, I think that laser welding is starting to see some use on some Airbus panels maybe the 318 or 380-which would be sheet material-don't know what that mean at the bottom of the sea and it was just a snippet I heard and may have misremembered-The A in A and P is just the crap that gets in my way-don't pay much attention to it

Are you an A&P? I'm all about airframe, can do engine work on recips, but turbines I'm weak on. I know a little P&W PT-6, and I know some basics on 733, A320's etc, we pull em all the time, but the internals are not my forte.

See, we build / fix airplanes, the powerplant guys just hang parts on em

Laser welding: Is this for alum skin panles or composite of some sort? Scarebus are throwaways anyway. Hell, we part out / tear down scarebus's at 15 - 20 years of age all the time. We even parted out a newer 340 recently. The spars are life-limited and cannot be bumpe like Boeing / Douglas, so they're throw away.

[billvon 2,434]

> Does anyone know why there were not multiple fail safes in place to avoid this.

Cost. BOP's are expensive; even more so when they have to install them under 5000 feet of water. It's likely they calculated how much a spill would cost them, then compared that to putting more redundant BOP's on every well they maintain, and decided that it was just plain cheaper to go with a single failsafe. (Looks like that will turn out to be wrong, though.)

BTW the "failsafe" you are probably referring to is the shear ram; it's the last ditch device that will cut off the flow even when the drill is in place. It cuts through the drill string and shuts off flow. However, it won't cut through a tool joint (the joint between two pipes) so there's a significant chance of it not working. In this case they tried to activate it several times and it's never been able to shut off the flow, so the assumption is that it's on a tool joint.

[1969912 0]

Lots of ROV activity around the leak right now. See Ocean Intervention ROV's 1 and 2 here: http://www.troutbugs.com/rovs.html

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

Looks like they are getting ready to strip off the tophat oil capture thingy and set the new tophat in place. Sould be good video, but it'll probably take all night. Hope it works!

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[yourmomma 0]

I figured it was cost. It seems to me that they should have..gasp...faced heavier regulation.(Before anyone starts I understand that the existing regulations are crippling them causing them to drive up our cost and likely wouldn't have done anything.) The regulations they are going to face will likely be far stricter and costlier as an afterthought.

Similarly, this being a man made disaster the corporation involved shouldn't have to bear the cost. The government should step in. Unlike natural disaster where private citizens should be expected to pick themselves up by the boot straps.

[skydveraz 0]

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Duct tape?


Chuck

Oil And Water Proof Duct Tape!

Arizona only has two seasons, Hot and HOTTER!