Greece Advised to Leave the Euro

[Gawain 0]

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from a euro perspective: the euro-zone grew (imo) to quick ánd without the homework being done properly. bad point being that even the driving forces behind the whole project (germany & france) weren't abiding to the set rules all the time, and countries like italy, greece, spain and portugal had many fiscal & economical problems that weren't dealt with properly in the first place (read: before the union started).
but once a system like the euro is up and running it would be suicidal (again mho) to try and go back - to much would be lost and to little gained.

I guess this will delay the 2012 target for many of the Eastern European nations to join. (Poland, oddly, is doing pretty well in this current state of affairs)

probably yes. as much as I like the idea of a unified europe without borders and a strong economic bond between the countries I still think the expansion/taking in more countris came way to early. we've been far to euphoric and optimistic and the way this continent (still) has to go in the near future doesn't seem to bright at all. to many questions are unanswered: will europe be able to speak with one voice (read: foreign affairs), who should take leadership (will there ever be something like a president for all? do we even want this???), how should things be dealt with on a local level (legislative waterhead based in brussels?), how are we going to deal with uprising and resurrection of nationalism (hungary comes to my mind but i guess there are other places as well that like to blame "europe" for homegrown problems)
this list could be longer -so you see: greece is just on part of a much greater complex puzzle

Here is where countries that are now members (Greece for one) are not served by such a single voice: Cyprus. Greece is now able to hold an economically stronger country like Turkey away from the table. As you said, it's only one example and a reason why the single currency may be not the best idea in the end. None of the members are following their own rules. So, how do you tie in economics without giving up sovereignty? Free trade - plain and simple. Tax treaties for pan-European companies and payroll, etc. Throw in formulas for currency variables and you have an equally imperfect, but ultimately more flexible situation...just one idea off the cuff.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Kennedy 0]

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And we have such an efficient system? If we quit fighting it and went to single payer there would be less waste and fraud. Doctors would be gov employed and therefore would have no reason to corrupt, fraud, steal, collude, etc.

The system now is gov-paid via medicare for private svs, so fraud is aplenty.

Wait...wait...wait...wait...wait....ARE YOU SAYING THAT GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS AND THE BUREAUCRACY AREN'T CORRUPT AND THERE ISN'T FRAUD???!!!

And here is the heart of the matter. For some reason, socialists like Lucky are unable to imagine that an all powerful government could do anything they don't approve of.

I wonder what it would take to beat it through a socialist's skull that if you give the government the power to take away another person's freedoms and choices, then that government has the power to take away THEIR freedoms and choices. All for the greater good, of course. [queu the sycophantic chorus: "the greater good"]

I guess they all have such delusions of grandeur and believe so powerfully that their position is obviously the only right one that every person everywhere must agree with them or there is something dangerously wrong with the other person.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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And we have such an efficient system? If we quit fighting it and went to single payer there would be less waste and fraud. Doctors would be gov employed and therefore would have no reason to corrupt, fraud, steal, collude, etc.

The system now is gov-paid via medicare for private svs, so fraud is aplenty.

You really believe this? You actually think that the people out there committing fraud will stop being scumbags and will suddenly become useful members of society? You obviously underestimate the greed, laziness, and stupidity of dirtbags everywhere.

Lucky, have you ever worked directly with the government on anything in your life? Or are you one of those people who has not actual experience beyond being dissatisfied with services provided?
(which make me wonder, since you're not happy with the job they do now, what makes you think they'll do better with more money, more responsibility, and more red tape?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rhaig 0]

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>So you want to be an isolationist country?

Sounds like he just wants to be an isolationist family if it comes to that.

Unless he gets in a pinch, then it's, "Gubbment, help me."

and why not? he's paying taxes to that government right now isn't he?

See, I love this. I worked for this old guy who was/is a tea bagger and he hates socialism and all it stands for. Of course I could shut him up by tellingg him the way it is: He's a socialist who hates socialism, unless it's for the people who deserve it (according to him). He's colleccting social security an getting Medicare, yet he hates the idea of any kind of socialized medicine, even the innocuous BS that takes eefect in 2914. He's 67 and won't have to bear the burden of any of whatever the sky-is-falling crowd tryies to convice us of anyway.

Many, many socialists vote Republican and receive SS cause they deserve it.

If you would be kind enough to tell me how to legally stop paying into the SS system and get out what I've paid in during the last 3 decades, I'll gladly opt out of any payments from them during my lifetime.

--
Rob

[Andy9o8 0]

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no holes barred,

Please take that kind of discussion to Bonfire.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Try to read again; CHINA HAS THE MOST EFFICIENT SYSTEM IN THAT THEY ARE THE BIGGEST CREDITOR, WE ARE THE BIGGEST DEBTOR.

Try to read the definition of efficiency.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Guess what Billvon, I find Luckys posts refreshing and no holes barred, I don't always agree with his opinions
but he seems to have a better grip on what politicians are than you and a lot of others who post here.

Too bad he has such poor grip of factual data.

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My opinion is that the Euro was designed for the benefit of France and Germany.
With the attitude of I'm alright jack and the rest of you can go fuck yourselves.

I'm more interested by this point. How does Germany benefit? As the strongest economy in the EU, doesn't it hurt them to have to subsidize many of the others? Or does the easy trade with no barriers or currency drag make up for that and more?

[billvon 2,447]

>I wonder what it would take to beat it through a socialist's skull that if you
>give the government the power to take away another person's freedoms
>and choices, then that government has the power to take away THEIR
>freedoms and choices.

Same thing it would take to get that message through a tea partyer's skull I imagine. Everyone wants to get their own stuff and cut other people's stuff. Democrats and republicans just disagree on what that stuff is.

[billvon 2,447]

>I've lived through two currency changes and both of them were a disaster.

OK. Sounds like you won't want a third, then.

[kallend 1,659]

Maybe it's time for Alaska to be advised to leave the $US

Less than a year after then-Gov. Sarah Palin (R-Alaska) quit the government to pursue other projects, Alaska leads the way in its debt-to-GDP ratio when its unfunded pension obligations are taken into account, followed by Rhode Island, New Mexico, Ohio and Mississippi. And although Alaska’s ratio is far lower than Greece’s, it does give the state a debt-to-GDP ratio similar to that of Jordan and Palin’s favorite health care resource, Canada, and a higher ratio than Ghana, Cote d’Ivoire, India, the Philippines or Uruguay.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[feuergnom 22]

we're living in interesting times, aren't we

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Kennedy 0]

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>I wonder what it would take to beat it through a socialist's skull that if you
>give the government the power to take away another person's freedoms
>and choices, then that government has the power to take away THEIR
>freedoms and choices.

Same thing it would take to get that message through a tea partyer's skull I imagine. Everyone wants to get their own stuff and cut other people's stuff. Democrats and republicans just disagree on what that stuff is.

When you figure out what it takes, short of putting a new hole into their head, let me know, because both sides need a serious helping of whatever it takes.

By the way, since I'm not 100% up on it, what freedoms or choices are the Tea Party trying to give the government/take away from individuals?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 2,447]

>By the way, since I'm not 100% up on it, what freedoms or choices are
>the Tea Party trying to give the government/take away from individuals?

The Tea Partyers, like everyone else, wants their government services while eliminating "other people's" services. I think it is best summed by this recent quote from Jodine White of Rocklin, CA. During a telephone poll she was asked if she was OK reducing the size of government if she personally lost some services:

"That’s a conundrum, isn’t it? I don’t know what to say. Maybe I don’t want smaller government. I guess I want smaller government and my Social Security. I didn’t look at it from the perspective of losing things I need. I think I’ve changed my mind."

[rehmwa 2]

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>Everyone wants to get their own stuff and cut other people's stuff.

that's such a nutty comment though, you could toss it at someone that's protesting spending tax dollars on "free cotton candy to 7 selected people in the country"

"well hell - maybe they want cotton candy, Bill, but they sure aren't complaining about you wanting a fire department. You want your stuff and they want their stuff"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,447]

>that's such a nutty comment though

You may consider it nutty, but it is why government keeps growing. Republicans want to cut taxes - as long as they get another two wars and a trillion dollar satellite defense system. Democrats want to cut spending - as long as they get their medicare, HUD and education program expansions.

In other words, neither party really wants to cut spending.

[Kennedy 0]

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>By the way, since I'm not 100% up on it, what freedoms or choices are
>the Tea Party trying to give the government/take away from individuals?

The Tea Partyers, like everyone else, wants their government services while eliminating "other people's" services. I think it is best summed by this recent quote from Jodine White of Rocklin, CA. During a telephone poll she was asked if she was OK reducing the size of government if she personally lost some services:

"That’s a conundrum, isn’t it? I don’t know what to say. Maybe I don’t want smaller government. I guess I want smaller government and my Social Security. I didn’t look at it from the perspective of losing things I need. I think I’ve changed my mind."

I remember reading that moron's quote. Yeah, so the Tea Party has idiots like every other.

...OK deap breath...

That's the problem with governments spending without worrying about how to pay for things. They've made promises they can't keep. Starting with pensions and ending with, well, I haven't seen and end yet. But you haven't answered me. What freedoms or choices do the TP folks want to take from people and give to government? I don't mean which entitlements do we save and which do we 86. I mean reproductive choice, self defense, etc.

They seem largely concenrned with unchecked govt spending, porous borders, recidivist criminals, and a limited constitutional govt. They sound pretty libertarian to me (on the easy issues, anyway).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

The Tea Party has a lot of supporters that jumped on the Ross Perot bandwagon. They're unsatisfied voters who really want an alternative to the status quo and will leap to the first thing that sounds good.

[kallend 1,659]

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They seem largely concenrned with unchecked govt spending, porous borders, recidivist criminals, and a limited constitutional govt. They sound pretty libertarian to me (on the easy issues, anyway).

The Border Patrol has difficulty meeting its recruiting goals. Perhaps a few of the TP folks would volunteer for a 3 year stretch at the border. Nice work environment: desert, 100 degee heat...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[Gawain 0]

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They seem largely concenrned with unchecked govt spending, porous borders, recidivist criminals, and a limited constitutional govt. They sound pretty libertarian to me (on the easy issues, anyway).

The Border Patrol has difficulty meeting its recruiting goals. Perhaps a few of the TP folks would volunteer for a 3 year stretch at the border. Nice work environment: desert, 100 degee heat...

Yeah, but it's a dry heat...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[lawrocket 3]

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And China will be laughing. Seems that Communism is the most effective form of government from a fiscal stance.

Really? Did you bother telling that to the former Sovet Union? East Germany? Romania? Poland? Yugoslavia?

How about Cambodia? Ethiopia? Somalia? Afghanistan? Angola? yeah. They did well and have continued to flourish.

We now have, what, five remaining communist states? China; Vietnam; Laos; NoKo; and Cuba. Am I missing any?

China - yes. A powerhouse right now. Plenty of communist states become powerhouses and seem to be in great shape. Then eventually the Ponzi scheme of social engineering falls down and there is left a mess.

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When you allow for the elite to run things, the elite does well.

Who do you think runs China? Did you know that China is a one-party Communist state? Recall that Mao became the single elite - and he and his henchmen did quite well. The 30 million people who died in a famine were, I guess, not quite elite enough.

Xiaoping, when he took the helm, instituted reforms that made China more economically competitive by bringing in some capitalism. Oh yeah, they took the heads off of people in Tiananmen Square, too.

Of course, presently, there is strong economic growth. This is, to a large extent, empowered by infratructural systems that are being built and have been built such as the Three Groges Dam - projects that are admirable in their ends but do not get done in places like the US anymore because of the environmental and community inpacts.

However, eventually, a grass roots movement develops where the people of a communist state eventually tire of dominance by the elites. It likely will happen in China.

Nevertheless, one benefit of our economic interdependence is that China is just as reliant on the US. I'd prefer it to be otherwise - that the US didn't need Chinese money for fighting wars in the Middle east, on drugs, and on poverty. But since we cannot pay for it ourselves it's what happens.

Take a look at Greece as an example of where we could be headed unless things are reeled in - and soon.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Kennedy 0]

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They seem largely concenrned with unchecked govt spending, porous borders, recidivist criminals, and a limited constitutional govt. They sound pretty libertarian to me (on the easy issues, anyway).

The Border Patrol has difficulty meeting its recruiting goals. Perhaps a few of the TP folks would volunteer for a 3 year stretch at the border. Nice work environment: desert, 100 degee heat...

Yeah, when you pay like the janitor but expect perfection in a physical and dangerous profession, recruiting can be tough. When you have the reputation of not backing your people and occasionally throwing them in prison for doing their job, meeting your recruiting goals can be a real bitch.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

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[Kennedy 0]

You could make the case for Venezuela being on that list, and on it's way into the shitter.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,659]

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They seem largely concenrned with unchecked govt spending, porous borders, recidivist criminals, and a limited constitutional govt. They sound pretty libertarian to me (on the easy issues, anyway).

The Border Patrol has difficulty meeting its recruiting goals. Perhaps a few of the TP folks would volunteer for a 3 year stretch at the border. Nice work environment: desert, 100 degee heat...

Yeah, when you pay like the janitor but expect perfection in a physical and dangerous profession, recruiting can be tough. When you have the reputation of not backing your people and occasionally throwing them in prison for doing their job, meeting your recruiting goals can be a real bitch.

It's really funny hearing the right changing its tune on rates of government pay and benefits when it suits their position.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[futuredivot 0]

and your examples are?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[kallend 1,659]

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and your examples are?

Are they?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.