How many people just got put out of work and just don't know it yet?

[Iceburner 0]

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if people are doing so well in the obama year, and so bad during the bush year, why did my IRA grow 700+ bucks in the last 2 years of bush, and drop 350 in the 1 year of obama?? I'm not a genius, but i'd say i was doing better under bush...although, investments tend to do better through time....guess i gotta stick it out tilll the great O is done.

It's not scientific or statistically significant to take 1 non-random sample and draw a conclusion to the whole system.

Furthermore, your IRA may have sold stock and bought bonds, which is likely; bonds soared as the market crashed.

Management/mismanagement of 1 IRA account means absolutley zip to the argument of economy. Do I need to post the GDP #'s, the NBER saying the Great Recession started in late 2007, the 3.4% unemployment rose from Feb 08 to Feb 09 per the BLS, or the market crash from a high of 14K+ to a low of 6500 in about 2 years as it freefell before and during Obama's inauguration? Do I? Are you going to argue that GWB's economy was stellar or even acceptable? Please make the argument or ask me to make the counter-argument. I doubt you'll do either, you'll just go on telling us about your IRA and acct as tho the economy spins around it.

Yes the economy did tank under bush...he happened to be the president when the housing bubble burst. What caused the economy to tank (beginning with fannie mae) was largely due to pressures put on them to give out the loans at subprime rates...by the clinton admin (if you really want me to link it I will when I get home). The economy would have recovered even without obamas policies/spending...and there are new studies being done to see if the spending he did actually slowed the recovery....but it doesn't matter, you will praise obama no matter what and I will continue to criticise him. I used my ira not as a statistic suggesting anything, simply as a personal example of how I didn't have it that badunder bush and this last year I have lost money. If my spelling sucks its because I'm on the phone

[kallend 1,677]

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So you are OK with putting me out of business?

If your business is so poorly run that it can't afford decent conditions for its employees, it should indeed fold.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,677]

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if people are doing so well in the obama year, and so bad during the bush year, why did my IRA grow 700+ bucks in the last 2 years of bush, and drop 350 in the 1 year of obama?? I'm not a genius, but i'd say i was doing better under bush...although, investments tend to do better through time....guess i gotta stick it out tilll the great O is done.

If you dropped that much since Obama was inaugurated, your investment strategy sucks big time. The DOW went UP 32% during Obama's first year. It dropped over 30% during Bush's final year.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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Yes the economy did tank under bush...he happened to be the president when the housing bubble burst.

Yea, pure coincidence. And Clinton happened to be the president when the country underwent the greatest economic boom ever. It really comes down to how much money you are willing to let the ruch hang on to; Clinton had the ethics to collect more, fascist pig Ronnie and GWB had other ideas and cit taxes leading to the mess.

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What caused the economy to tank (beginning with fannie mae) was largely due to pressures put on them to give out the loans at subprime rates...by the clinton admin (if you really want me to link it I will when I get home).

I know you're going to reference Gramm, Leach, Bliley, a bill sponsored by those 3 lovely Repiblicans. We've beat this to death here already, revisit if you wish. That may have urged a little sub-prime lending, which, if houses aren't artificially inflated is not that big a deal even if most default, you lose 10-20% on turning the houses back. The real problem was the artificial inflation and sub-prime didn't cause that.

PITI, mostly the P (Principle) and the I (int) are very relative; as one goes higher, the other falls. And since the int rate tanked to 50-year lows basically overnight, principles and the amount a person would qualify for went up drastically, causing hyperinflation which was the cuase and the catalyst. W/o the low int rates there would have been a small mess with the subprimes. Of course the subprimes were the throw in by the Repubs to get the otherwise rich-beneficial bill to get it to pass.

So, why did the int rates drop? Bush's tax cuts were a big reasons, but cutting taxes as you want to spend 100's of billions on a war was huge too. But overspending and simultaneously cutting taxes was the cause of the need for the fed reserve to lower rates; to stimulate the economy. The first thing Clinton did as he entered office was to raise taxes, top brkt from 31% to 40% and that really helped turn things around, even before the .com boom. The first thing GWB did was to cut taxes and give away the stimulus. So your little act of coincidence is actually just for comic relief, I assume.

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The economy would have recovered even without obamas policies/spending...

Oh, I see, yea. The economy tanks under fascist pig Ronnie until he deficit spends out of it for a lukewarm economy, GHWB cuts spending and raises taxes, Clinton cuts more spending and raises taxes again which helps give us the most robust growth ever, GWB outdoes FR spending-wise and cuts taxes and everything tanks, now Obama is hande dthe 2nd worst economy of all time and you say his stimulus didn't help. Oh pleae, show me your Heritage Foundation garbage to support that . Are you not able to see a recurring trend here with recurring results? I feel bad for you if ya can't. Cut taxes - things go to fuck; FIGURE IT OUT, EINSTEIN.

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and there are new studies being done to see if the spending he did actually slowed the recovery....

Ah, teh ellusive "studies." Again, keep your Heriatge Foundation crap and make args of your own. The same type asswipes made claims that FDR prolonged the Republican GD too

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but it doesn't matter, you will praise obama no matter what and I will continue to criticise him.

No, I will reference objective data, discard illegitimate data and make my own opinion based upon that. You will follow whatever FOX telsl you.

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I used my ira not as a statistic suggesting anything, simply as a personal example of how I didn't have it that badunder bush and this last year I have lost money. If my spelling sucks its because I'm on the phone

Yes, you tried to argue that due to your IRA, everyone must be doing well, by BK and foreclosure stats that is very easy to reject, as well as all the other massive amounst of negative GWB daat. Care to talk GDP? 4 of the 5 Q's preceeding Obama were negative, the Q Obama entered under was -6.4%.

I don't care about spelling errors.

[pirana 0]

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The end result would be an economic boom. No more being a wage slave to a job you hate, just because the benefits are really good. People who want to start businesses would have the freedom to do so, as they would not have to worry about health care for themselves and their families. Employer/employee negotations could go back to being mostly earnings based, instead of "compensation" based, as in excessive health insurance costs forcing down net income.

It isn't like we aren't spending the money already. Losing 1/3 of the health insurance premiums to "overhead" isn't sustainable. What it comes down to is simple - How will the money flow?
Right now, the majority of the health care $$ flows from the public, to private organizations that make take a big cut of the $$ to run themselves and provide a "good return to their investors", then the leftovers go to the medical service providers.
The $$ should go straght out of pocket via taxes and go to pay the medical services providers directly via a Medicare for all system. The system exists, it works, and people understand it. Simple, straightforward, and quite doable.

Get on board with single payer and maybe you might be able to start another company some day.

That is false. No tax dollars go directly from the taxpayer to the providers of care; or to the providers of anything for that matter.

Who do you think will administer an expanded Medicare? Little elves that work for free?

I agree employers should be out of the picture; pay people what the market demands and let them make their own insurance choices.

Hard to prove where costs will go, but creating an even more humongous government bureacracy will almost certainly increase admin costs; which right now run about 10% for any HCF organization that is run efficiently and responsibly.

Savings from mandated maintenance/preventive care should be realized, with the big question being how much will that be countered by increased utilization. Increased access will most definitely result in more services; both necessary and unnecessary.

Add to that the fact that cost of actual care continues to rise at a minimum double of wages, and as far as I know nothing is being done about price trend of services. Once this is realized, probably part of the next round of "advances" will be salary caps for docs. Can't wait to see how that goes over.

It will probably resemble the fiasco that went down in MN when some bleeding hearts tried to mandate freezing or capping what insurance would cost while at the same time mandating dramatically increased benefits. Makes you wonder how some of our legislators ever passed basic arithmetic.

That 900 billion has to come from somewhere, with the most likely sources (really the only sources) being costs to businesses that simply get passed on to consumers in higher prices and to wage earners as lower wages/fewer jobs.

Wait and see is about all that can be done now; with my fear being that tweaking will only be in the form of expansion, more costs, more bureacracy, more restrictions, and less freedom to choose.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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The resistance to ANY reform, no matter how small, was funded by the health care companies via the senators they own, and the astroturf organizations that the sheeple bought into.

Resistance? Sure about that? Looks like both sides were on the take, with a few more Dems than Reps.

Insurance - Money to Congress
McCain, John (R-AZ) $2,917,103
Obama, Barack (D) $2,505,802
7 of the top 10 and 12 of the top 20 are Democrats

Health Professionals - Money to Congress
Obama, Barack (D) $12,102,904
5 of the top 10 and 8 of the top 20 are Democrats

Health Services/HMOs - Money to Congress:
Obama, Barack (D) $1,483,372
6 of the top 10, and 10 of the top 20 are Democrats

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The smartest and most logical thing to do for health care is to transition to a single payer system.

Yes, that works so well for Medicare - you know, run by the gov't, refuses more claims than the private insurance, and due to have a half TRILLION dollars in 'fraud and waste' cut out of it.

Yes, Medicare is a poor comparison to commercial business. They have a captive audience, forced into narrowly defined benefit sets, with fixed pricing, coercion of providers, and shitloads of fraud.

I doubt that providers rallying for single payer are hoping it mimics Medicare.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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The "new" number one priority was going to be getting the economy moving again. Only to pull another 180, tell the press in Asia that the number one priority is healthcare, and that was why his trip to Asia was delayed/now more or less canceled. What's he going to do now? He can't cut taxes now, gotta pay for the new entitlement. Can't do another jobs bill, gotta pay for the new entitlement. This trillion dollar baby has locked him.

I can't believe he put his party's pet social program ahead of the economy. IMO, this is going to cost them big unless some miraclulous economic recovery takes place very soon.

I've never aligned with either major party at any point in my life, but if this tanks the economy even worse; I'm prepared to vote straight Rep ticket the rest of my life to make sure they never have the opportunity to do it again.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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When you own a small business come back and talk - until then your musing and raamblings are mute.

Small businesses are exempt, I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

ALL business is affected.

Simple economics - Employees get paid more or are covered by insurance via emplorers - prices escalate. Employers do not have capital to expand, nor do home owners now, construction buisness goes under . . . pretty simple.

I think we should go to a single builder plan; have the government take over the construction industry.

Why not; housing is a basic need.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

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I've never aligned with either major party at any point in my life, but if this tanks the economy even worse; I'm prepared to vote straight Rep ticket the rest of my life to make sure they never have the opportunity to do it again.

now this is something I thought I'd never ever see you write

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

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Yep. And Obama is really a terrorist who is going to make us into an Islamic dictatorship. How'd that one work out for you?

Show me where I said that please, captain assumptions.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

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So you are OK with putting me out of business?

If your business is so poorly run that it can't afford decent conditions for its employees, it should indeed fold.

And what gives you the right to determine what decent conditions are . . . perhaps you should come down and see the operation before you do what you do best - jump to a nonsensical conclusion.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

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When you own a small business come back and talk - until then your musing and raamblings are mute.

Small businesses are exempt, I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

ALL business is affected.

Simple economics - Employees get paid more or are covered by insurance via emplorers - prices escalate. Employers do not have capital to expand, nor do home owners now, construction buisness goes under . . . pretty simple.

I think we should go to a single builder plan; have the government take over the construction industry.

Why not; housing is a basic need.

That is pretty much what I am expecting next.

I have an idea . . why don't we just have the government run EVERYTHING and then we can get a gubment check every week.

I'm tired of working to support others - it is time for them to support me.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Channman 2]

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Yep, strong negative reaction from the business community - just look at the S&P, DOW and NASDAQ.

Oh, wait, they're all UP!

The Markets work much like the religion of Global Warming...there is a cooling tread coming, I'm sure of it.

You and Stanley ought to get together and have a nice conversation about this, he has been delluded on this issue since last October or so. He was calling for the sky to fall since then and has been on suicide watch twice as his margins came due on his shorts.

GDP, Unemp, and teh market are doing EXTREMELY WELL and have been since your turd is gone and my awesome pres is in.

As an aside, I did extremely well during the Clinton years, exceptionally horribly during the Bush years and things are really spinning around a year into Obama's time. This really makes my entire attitude positive; these kinds of things are contagious and I see a lot of people feeling the same way. If attitudes stay + I see a long, sustain growth period and a minimizing of the ugly Republicna Party, not the end, but a real cooling off period as far as R's being elected.

Take a deep breath DUDE, my point to Kallend was just pocking a little fun. Markets are like temps. they trend UP and trend DOWN. I like most see gains in my investments and I also see losses. However the losses are never realized until I get scared and sell.

Now back to you cellebration and leave me with my wine and cheese, with the hope of a great November dancing in my head.

[kallend 1,677]

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So you are OK with putting me out of business?

If your business is so poorly run that it can't afford decent conditions for its employees, it should indeed fold.

And what gives you the right to determine what decent conditions are . . . perhaps you should come down and see the operation before you do what you do best - jump to a nonsensical conclusion.

Somewhat less nonsensical than your OP.

Why are you abusing your employees anyway?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,677]

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When you own a small business come back and talk - until then your musing and raamblings are mute.

Small businesses are exempt, I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

ALL business is affected.

Simple economics - Employees get paid more or are covered by insurance via emplorers - prices escalate. Employers do not have capital to expand, nor do home owners now, construction buisness goes under . . . pretty simple.

I think we should go to a single builder plan; have the government take over the construction industry.

Why not; housing is a basic need.

That is pretty much what I am expecting next.

I have an idea . . why don't we just have the government run EVERYTHING and then we can get a gubment check every week.

I'm tired of working to support others - it is time for them to support me.

You should stick to what you do best.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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When you own a small business come back and talk - until then your musing and raamblings are mute.

Small businesses are exempt, I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

ALL business is affected.

Simple economics - Employees get paid more or are covered by insurance via emplorers - prices escalate. Employers do not have capital to expand, nor do home owners now, construction buisness goes under . . . pretty simple.

I think we should go to a single builder plan; have the government take over the construction industry.

Why not; housing is a basic need.

That is pretty much what I am expecting next.

I have an idea . . why don't we just have the government run EVERYTHING and then we can get a gubment check every week.

I'm tired of working to support others - it is time for them to support me.

You should stick to what you do best.

He is very lucky that there is always a completely new group of female jumpers every year here on Dizzy and at the DZ....

[mnealtx 0]

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Yes, Medicare is a poor comparison to commercial business.

Agree.

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They have a captive audience, forced into narrowly defined benefit sets, with fixed pricing, coercion of providers, and shitloads of fraud.

And that's what we'll be getting even MORE of with the HC reform...yippee!!

Gee...shitloads of fraud, in a gov't run system? Say it's not so!!

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I doubt that providers rallying for single payer are hoping it mimics Medicare.

They may hope not, but that's what we'll get.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pirana 0]

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I've never aligned with either major party at any point in my life, but if this tanks the economy even worse; I'm prepared to vote straight Rep ticket the rest of my life to make sure they never have the opportunity to do it again.

now this is something I thought I'd never ever see you write

I'm just so extremely disappointed that rather than aim for sensible regulation that maintains the kind of downward price pressure that can only come from competition; they opted for first steps towards humongous expansion of a government system which has price fixing as it's only option for putting pressure on cost.

And doing so at a time when we need to stimulate growth, not create a new $1 trillion dollar in debt, is unconscionable.

I used to think of myself as pretty centrist, seeing neither party as more evil than the other. This administration is changing that.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm just so extremely disappointed that rather than aim for sensible regulation that maintains the kind of downward price pressure that can only come from competition; they opted for first steps towards humongous expansion of a government system which has price fixing as it's only option for putting pressure on cost.

so the real goal is expansion of power, not helping the people - we knew that - same coin as 4 years ago, just the flip side of it

it's a shame, real health industry and cost reform is a decent goal

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[marks2065 0]

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When you own a small business come back and talk - until then your musing and raamblings are mute.

Small businesses are exempt, I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

ALL business is affected.

Simple economics - Employees get paid more or are covered by insurance via emplorers - prices escalate. Employers do not have capital to expand, nor do home owners now, construction buisness goes under . . . pretty simple.

I think we should go to a single builder plan; have the government take over the construction industry.

Why not; housing is a basic need.

That is pretty much what I am expecting next.

I have an idea . . why don't we just have the government run EVERYTHING and then we can get a gubment check every week.

I'm tired of working to support others - it is time for them to support me.

You should stick to what you do best.

we still have ins co's taking 10% for overhead, now we have gov taking 10%+(will probably be more than the ins co's because gov employees make about 20% on average) and we have 30 million people getting free health care. what makes you think that the cost to everyone else wouldn't go up at least 20%.

[DanG 1]

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and we have 30 million people getting free health care

Um, no. There will be 30 million more covered. It doesn't mean they will be getting it for free. Right now, people who actually have insurance are paying for the medical care of those 30 million. Under the new bill the cost of caring for those people will be spread out to everyone, including most of those 30 million.

This bill doesn't mandate free insurance, it mandates universal insurance (mostly). There is a big difference.

- Dan G

[kallend 1,677]

Believing your own propaganda is always a mistake.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

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Believing your own propaganda is always a mistake.

what propaganda? are the new gov employees to handle this working for free? are those making under 40k paying full price for insurance? are the ins co's not paying themselves? does the law make illegals pay for insurance? are the illegals forbiden to get free med care?

we have the same people paying for the increase in numbers insured and getting treatment. we have tens of thousands of new government employees and no reduction in actual cost of giving medical treatment. the hard working american again is being robbed to pay the way for a few worthless people and government waste.

[kallend 1,677]

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Believing your own propaganda is always a mistake.

what propaganda?

You can start with THIS.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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and we have 30 million people getting free health care

Um, no. There will be 30 million more covered. It doesn't mean they will be getting it for free. Right now, people who actually have insurance are paying for the medical care of those 30 million. Under the new bill the cost of caring for those people will be spread out to everyone, including most of those 30 million.

This bill doesn't mandate free insurance, it mandates universal insurance (mostly). There is a big difference.

With a good portion of these people not getting insurance due to affordability, what makes you think they would be paying for it?

No, we already know where some of this money is coming from - higher medicare taxes on income, coupled with higher taxes on investment gains. The threshold may seem very high for those living outside the big city, but if my gf and I were married, it would be an extra 1-2k/year in taxes. She has a small condo, I rent.