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JohnRich

Unarmed versus Armed Victims

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Is that why we've been reading and hearing of more gun related crimes in places like England?



That's because you're reading JohnRich. If you look on official Home Office stats, you'll see that the number of firearms offenses in UK goes DOWN.


Guess London isn't listening any better than Washington DC, then:

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Gun crime in London rose by nearly half and rape and homophobic crime rose by about a quarter over the past year, police figures have revealed.

There were 3,306 firearm offences in London in 2009, a rise of 48.7%.





Shhhh dont you know Europe is safe you dont have to be afraid of the gun crime there because therea re no guns:S:S:S

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Your quote: "Therefore a story of a non-gun owner like me who was "saved" from a crime by a gun owner is relevant."



Your claim: "only examples of gun owners coming to the rescue of people like him that refuse to protect themselves are acceptable."

Where is this ONLY in my quote?
Do you see the difference between "relevant" and "acceptable"?
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Shhhh dont you know Europe is safe you dont have to be afraid of the gun crime there because therea re no guns:S:S:S



If you actually read the article till the end, you'd see the following:

A total of 832,439 crimes were recorded in London in 2009, a reduction of 2.3% since 2008.

There were 725 fewer young victims of violence, a reduction by 3.5%, there were 25 fewer victims of homicide - with 130 homicide victims recorded - and knife crime fell by 7.9%.


which support my thoughts that this increase of "gun crime" was related to increase of enforcement for non-permitted guns and stuff like that.
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Shhhh dont you know Europe is safe you dont have to be afraid of the gun crime there because therea re no guns:S:S:S



If you actually read the article till the end, you'd see the following:

A total of 832,439 crimes were recorded in London in 2009, a reduction of 2.3% since 2008.

There were 725 fewer young victims of violence, a reduction by 3.5%, there were 25 fewer victims of homicide - with 130 homicide victims recorded - and knife crime fell by 7.9%.


which support my thoughts that this increase of "gun crime" was related to increase of enforcement for non-permitted guns and stuff like that.



Hmmm Maybe Seattle is safer after all only 48000 or so here.

http://www.seattle.gov/police/crime/09_Stats/2009_10_Year_Major_Crimes.pdf

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Your quote: "Therefore a story of a non-gun owner like me who was "saved" from a crime by a gun owner is relevant."



Your claim: "only examples of gun owners coming to the rescue of people like him that refuse to protect themselves are acceptable."

Where is this ONLY in my quote?
Do you see the difference between "relevant" and "acceptable"?



Well, let me provide the whole, even more damning quote, then:

"Therefore a story of a non-gun owner like me who was "saved" from a crime by a gun owner is relevant. A story when a gun owner saved himself from a crime is not because it does not impact my safety."

So, again, you show that the only acceptable use of a gun in your world is to protect YOU - while you refuse to take any steps to protect yourself.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Hmmm Maybe Seattle is safer after all only 48000 or so here.



Not really.

London has population of 7,556,900 - gives us one crime per 9.07 people.
Seattle has population of 602,000 - gives us one crime per 12.5 people



Per capita is not a valid comparison - what is the rate per 100k?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Well, let me provide the whole, even more damning quote, then:

"Therefore a story of a non-gun owner like me who was "saved" from a crime by a gun owner is relevant. A story when a gun owner saved himself from a crime is not because it does not impact my safety."

So, again, you show that the only acceptable use of a gun in your world is to protect YOU - while you refuse to take the steps to protect yourself.



No, this is your misleading interpretation. I said A is relevant, B is not relevant. I did not say C, D, E and so on are not relevant either. What you are trying to allege that I said that only A is acceptable. This is false.

And, of course, "relevant" != "acceptable".
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Hmmm Maybe Seattle is safer after all only 48000 or so here.



Not really.

London has population of 7,556,900 - gives us one crime per 9.07 people.
Seattle has population of 602,000 - gives us one crime per 12.5 people



Think metro AREA.. since London is one hell of a large metro.

But remember how safe Europe is supposed to be.... only the sheepdogs are supposed to have weapons to protect o ye of the flock

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Well, let me provide the whole, even more damning quote, then:

"Therefore a story of a non-gun owner like me who was "saved" from a crime by a gun owner is relevant. A story when a gun owner saved himself from a crime is not because it does not impact my safety."

So, again, you show that the only acceptable use of a gun in your world is to protect YOU - while you refuse to take the steps to protect yourself.



No, this is your misleading interpretation. I said A is relevant, B is not relevant. I did not say C, D, E and so on are not relevant either. What you are trying to allege that I said that only A is acceptable. This is false.

And, of course, "relevant" != "acceptable".



Your own posting record proves your lie.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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But remember how safe Europe is supposed to be.... only the sheepdogs are supposed to have weapons to protect o ye of the flock



Well, it is. Note that the Seattle only lists "major crimes", while London lists "all crime" (which includes non-violent gun crime as well).
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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Maybe. JR and masterrig were talking about UK.
Talking about just London (or DC) is pretty extreme cherry-picking. Worse than that would be only talking about a specific suburb.



From the Home Office:

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Analysis by the type of weapon shows there was a large decrease in the number of firearm offences involving imitation weapons in 2008/09 and small rises in the number involving
handguns and shotguns (Table 3.09).
• Handguns were used in 4,250 offences during 2008/09, two per cent (78 offences) more than in 2007/08. Shotguns were used in 617 offences, up two per cent (15 offences)



What? Handgun and shotgun crime is UP? How can that be - they reported that gun crime FELL!!!!

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Imitation weapons were used in 1,502 offences in 2008/09, 41 per cent fewer than in the previous year. This total is 55 per cent lower than the peak of 3,373 offences in 2004/05.



Looks like that 'decrease' was criminals deciding not to use the fake guns anymore, while use of REAL guns rose.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Your own posting record proves your lie.



So you are out of arguments and up to lies.



Do you REALLY want me to quote all the times you've said that gun ownership is only valid when it saves your ass (paraphrased)? I can, you know, and it'll just make you look even more foolish.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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What? Handgun and shotgun crime is UP? How can that be - they reported that gun crime FELL!!!!



This is because you're intentionally cherry-picking again (as you obviously know that "gun crime" includes much more than just handguns and shotguns). Of course you're not going to explain that shotgun crime went up by whooping 15 (!) crimes (not 15%, just 15), and handgun crime going 2% up is compensated by "undefined firearm" crime going 27% down.

There is even a nice plot for those who cannot read, on page 8. I'm attaching it for your convenience.

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Looks like that 'decrease' was criminals deciding not to use the fake guns anymore, while use of REAL guns rose.



Nope. "Undefined" and "other firearm" is not imitation.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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Do you REALLY want me to quote all the times you've said that gun ownership is only valid when it saves your ass (paraphrased)? I can, you know, and it'll just make you look even more foolish.



You said that "only examples of gun owners coming to the rescue of people like him that refuse to protect themselves are acceptable. "

THIS is what you have to prove. You can provide zillions of irrelevant examples (like the one you paraphrased), but it would not matter because you need to prove a very specific thing. The reason you cannot do it because I did not say it like that - this is just how you (mistakenly) interpreted it. But you attributed it to me, and screwed up there.

I'm going to sleep, enjoy your search.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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What? Handgun and shotgun crime is UP? How can that be - they reported that gun crime FELL!!!!



This is because you're intentionally cherry-picking again (as you obviously know that "gun crime" includes much more than just handguns and shotguns).



That's straight from the Home Office, George, so your 'cherry-picking' red herring ain't working this time.

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Looks like that 'decrease' was criminals deciding not to use the fake guns anymore, while use of REAL guns rose.



Nope. "Undefined" and "other firearm" is not imitation.



What part of "Imitation weapons were used in 1,502 offences in 2008/09, 41 per cent fewer than in the previous year" gave you the difficulty?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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You said that "only examples of gun owners coming to the rescue of people like him that refuse to protect themselves are acceptable. "

THIS is what you have to prove. You can provide zillions of irrelevant examples (like the one you paraphrased), but it would not matter because you need to prove a very specific thing. The reason you cannot do it because I did not say it like that - this is just how you (mistakenly) interpreted it. But you attributed it to me, and screwed up there.

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Here's the link to the post, quoted again in full:

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***(Kelpdiver)And finally to the stories. I'm not reading "armed citizen" because I am not interested [in any data that contradicts my own viewpoint LALALALALALALALLALALALALA (fingers in ears)]***

(Georgerussia)I thought I made it pretty clear without your childish editing: I'm not reading "armed citizen" because I am not interested of how a minority of armed people protects themselves from crimes. As I said, like the majority I do not own any guns, so none of those stories are relevant to me.

I do not own guns, and not planning to do so. Therefore a story of a non-gun owner like me who was "saved" from a crime by a gun owner is relevant. A story when a gun owner saved himself from a crime is not because it does not impact my safety. Is it so hard to understand?



Wasn't hard to understand at all, and proves my point perfectly - thanks!
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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That's Europe! This is the U.S.A. What works for some, doesn't always work for others.



For example?
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Europe's gun laws! Guns started in Europe with the advent of gunpowder. That sperad to the U.S. and we began to manufacture guns. With that in mind... Europe started it all!

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Is that why we've been reading and hearing of more gun related crimes in places like England?


___________________________
That's because you're reading JohnRich. If you look on official Home Office stats, you'll see that the number of firearms offenses in UK goes DOWN.


John is not my only source. He does come across with 'good' information. I guess, it depends on whose stats you read. All I could find was how England's gun-crime rate was way up, last year. What I don't understand is, you are so much against guns yet, you stated that you were 'saved' by a gun owner. I would think, you would have more of an understanding if not appreciation of guns. Ya' got me there!


Chuck

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Is that why we've been reading and hearing of more gun related crimes in places like England?



That's because you're reading JohnRich. If you look on official Home Office stats, you'll see that the number of firearms offenses in UK goes DOWN.


Guess London isn't listening any better than Washington DC, then:

Quote

Gun crime in London rose by nearly half and rape and homophobic crime rose by about a quarter over the past year, police figures have revealed.

There were 3,306 firearm offences in London in 2009, a rise of 48.7%.



Thanks for the back-up!;)


Chuck

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Do you REALLY want me to quote all the times you've said that gun ownership is only valid when it saves your ass (paraphrased)? I can, you know, and it'll just make you look even more foolish.



You said that "only examples of gun owners coming to the rescue of people like him that refuse to protect themselves are acceptable. "

THIS is what you have to prove. You can provide zillions of irrelevant examples (like the one you paraphrased), but it would not matter because you need to prove a very specific thing. The reason you cannot do it because I did not say it like that - this is just how you (mistakenly) interpreted it. But you attributed it to me, and screwed up there.

I'm going to sleep, enjoy your search.


Looks to me like Mike proved his point and submitted valid information. You submit only one source. That was a real nice graph... where does it cover? London, Paris, Rome... all of Europe? Me thinks, you just like to argue!:D


Chuck

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There is even a nice plot for those who cannot read, on page 8. I'm attaching it for your convenience.



That (poorly attributed, poorly defined) graph shows a constant increase from 1999 till 2006, and then a decline that is still above the 1999 starting point.

Given the fact that laws haven't changed during this time, how does it support your argument? The last legislation was in 1997 in response to Dunblane, and effectively ended private ownership. As the chart your provided shows, there was a pretty marked increase in gun crime nonetheless - appears like it peaked with a ~60% increase, and even with the decline still appears to be 15% over.

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That's straight from the Home Office, George, so your 'cherry-picking' red herring ain't working this time.



"Straight from the Home Office" information shows that the gun crime is DOWN - and it shows it extremely clear on a plot I attached above. You had to do extreme cherry-picking (like pointing out that shotgun crime increased by 2% or 15(!) crimes), and completely ignoring drop in "other/unidentified firearm" to falsely claim that "'decrease' was criminals deciding not to use the fake guns anymore, while use of REAL guns rose. real weapon crime is up".

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What part of "Imitation weapons were used in 1,502 offences in 2008/09, 41 per cent fewer than in the previous year" gave you the difficulty?



What part of "unidentified firearm" drop by 27% and "other firearm" drop by 33% gave you the difficulty so you falsely claimed that "use of real guns rose"? Where did you get the information that all unidentified and other firearms are not real guns?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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