Finally "no open carry" at some businesses

[christelsabine 1]

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He received the same advise he gave. That is not ok in your book?

He was talking about his points of view like others did. You just were beeing impolite and rude. Big difference.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[georgerussia 0]

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So if I'm reading this correctly, you don't have a problem with concealed carry licensees, but a problem with people acquiring guns in the first place? A lot of states in the US have a fairly difficult process to acquire guns. If a person has no criminal history, no medical history of mental illness, and is a squared-away, mature individual, then there's no reason to deny them the right to self-defense. If they go crazy in 10 years and start shooting, I'd rather see a concealed carrier immediately subdue the threat, than have them gun down dozens of people before police respond. What would have happened during VA-Tech, Fort Hood, Columbine, etc, if teachers and or military members were allowed to carry concealed? A whole bunch of people who would be here today.

Not exactly - I do not have problems with carefully selected concealed carry licensees (like undercover cops). However at this moment to get a handgun basically all you need is to be 21, be able to write and have no major troubles with the law - this "criteria" matches virtually 90% of population and is pretty much not a restriction at all.

Now regarding concealed holders and crime prevention - statements like "concealed carry holders would reduce crime rate because criminals wouldn't know who is carrying" sound logical until you look deeper into the issue. The obvious issue with it is that to be a working solution, you would have to have a significant number of people around carrying. However the gun owners are only 25-30% of population, so chance that a specific teacher has a gun even at home is around 27%. And even Kopel admitted that only few are actually getting concealed carry permit in states where it's not that difficult to get. Then a chance for a specific teacher to a) own a gun, b) have a permit to carry and c) be carrying it with him is not significant enough to prevent anything.

What would work is mandatory search. Those who keep telling us that it is criminals which commit violent crimes, and tools don't matter somehow ignore the courts. Inside any court the concentration of criminals is typically much higher than anywhere else (except a jail), and still the number of violent crimes committed there seems to be quite low (and I do not remember any shooting sprees happening past the security check). Which is a surprise, because as we were told, that's criminals who commit crimes, and criminals obviously didn't change just because they were searched - it's removal of a tool which made it difficult/impossible to commit a crime. Airport sterile areas seems to be pretty much crime-free too. Again, it's pretty clear that areas, cities or countries where guns are restricted and this restriction is actually enforced have lower gun crime.

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You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. Here's another proving the same points, and citing references as well:
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp

I need an article which provides references so I can verify them on my own. Otherwise it would be possible to quote something like that:

States which have passed concealed-carry laws have seen their murder rate fall by 8.5 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assaults by 7 percent and robbery by 3 percent.

Which immediately makes me wonder how much the same crime rate fell in other states which did not pass concealed-carry laws? It may be the case of NRA-style claims like "crime rates significantly dropped in DC after lifting the gun ban" - without even mentioning that crime rate dropped pretty much nationwide, and therefore has nothing to do with gun ban. They also conveniently didn't provide years, so it is impossible to get this information from a 3rd party source like FBI statistics to even confirm that what they said is true.

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DC's the only exception? Texas there seems to have a lower rate than Illinois, California, and Washington, DC.

I'd politely remind that Kopel talks about "concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states". Sorry, but 533 versus 516 is not "much lower" - it is 5% difference.

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What about New Hampshire, which allows open carry, in addition to having some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country?

Having a population for the whole state twice of Washington, DC it is no surprise. But this is cherry-picking. Indeed you can mention Iowa, NH, ND and so, which have pretty low violent crime rate. However you cannot get FL, TX, NV, MD, LA and AZ out of equation (and I think you'd agree that it makes more sense comparing CA with TX/NV rather than with NH, and it makes more sense to compare NY with FL and not with Maine). Therefore it completely invalidates Kopel's statement that concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rushmc 18]

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If you do the same many would be happy

Do I give you advice?

As I have been told this is an open international forum.

Does not matter if it was directed at me or not.

And I still think you should follow your own advise

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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He received the same advise he gave. That is not ok in your book?

He was talking about his points of view like others did. You just were beeing impolite and rude. Big difference.



Oh, and he was not?

Now we all get it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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So if I'm reading this correctly, you don't have a problem with concealed carry licensees, but a problem with people acquiring guns in the first place? A lot of states in the US have a fairly difficult process to acquire guns. If a person has no criminal history, no medical history of mental illness, and is a squared-away, mature individual, then there's no reason to deny them the right to self-defense. If they go crazy in 10 years and start shooting, I'd rather see a concealed carrier immediately subdue the threat, than have them gun down dozens of people before police respond. What would have happened during VA-Tech, Fort Hood, Columbine, etc, if teachers and or military members were allowed to carry concealed? A whole bunch of people who would be here today.

Not exactly - I do not have problems with carefully selected concealed carry licensees (like undercover cops).so who chooses? You? However at this moment to get a handgun basically all you need is to be 21, be able to write and have no major troubles with the law - this "criteria" matches virtually 90% of population and is pretty much not a restriction at all.as our constitution says it should be

Now regarding concealed holders and crime prevention - statements like "concealed carry holders would reduce crime rate because criminals wouldn't know who is carrying" sound logical until you look deeper into the issue. The obvious issue with it is that to be a working solution, you would have to have a significant number of people around carrying. However the gun owners are only 25-30% of population, so chance that a specific teacher has a gun even at home is around 27%. And even Kopel admitted that only few are actually getting concealed carry permit in states where it's not that difficult to get. Then a chance for a specific teacher to a) own a gun, b) have a permit to carry and c) be carrying it with him is not significant enough to prevent anything.

What would work is mandatory search. Those who keep telling us that it is criminals which commit violent crimes, and tools don't matter somehow ignore the courts. Inside any court the concentration of criminals is typically much higher than anywhere else (except a jail), and still the number of violent crimes committed there seems to be quite low (and I do not remember any shooting sprees happening past the security check). Which is a surprise, because as we were told, that's criminals who commit crimes, and criminals obviously didn't change just because they were searched - it's removal of a tool which made it difficult/impossible to commit a crime. Airport sterile areas seems to be pretty much crime-free too. Again, it's pretty clear that areas, cities or countries where guns are restricted and this restriction is actually enforced have lower gun crime.

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You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. Here's another proving the same points, and citing references as well:
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp

I need an article which provides references so I can verify them on my own. Otherwise it would be possible to quote something like that:

States which have passed concealed-carry laws have seen their murder rate fall by 8.5 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assaults by 7 percent and robbery by 3 percent.

Which immediately makes me wonder how much the same crime rate fell in other states which did not pass concealed-carry laws? It may be the case of NRA-style claims like "crime rates significantly dropped in DC after lifting the gun ban" - without even mentioning that crime rate dropped pretty much nationwide, and therefore has nothing to do with gun ban. They also conveniently didn't provide years, so it is impossible to get this information from a 3rd party source like FBI statistics to even confirm that what they said is true.

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DC's the only exception? Texas there seems to have a lower rate than Illinois, California, and Washington, DC.

I'd politely remind that Kopel talks about "concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states". Sorry, but 533 versus 516 is not "much lower" - it is 5% difference.

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What about New Hampshire, which allows open carry, in addition to having some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country?

Having a population for the whole state twice of Washington, DC it is no surprise. But this is cherry-picking. Indeed you can mention Iowa, NH, ND and so, which have pretty low violent crime rate. However you cannot get FL, TX, NV, MD, LA and AZ out of equation (and I think you'd agree that it makes more sense comparing CA with TX/NV rather than with NH, and it makes more sense to compare NY with FL and not with Maine). Therefore it completely invalidates Kopel's statement that concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states.

What ever works to support your point huh

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[georgerussia 0]

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As I have been told this is an open international forum.
Does not matter if it was directed at me or not.

No, it does matter. For example, when an opponent provides false information and does not want to admit that he does not have any sources to confirm it (despite his several claims he did), the post directed to him is not directed (or even relevant) to you unless you also provide false information.

And I also consider this kind of "advice" being a PA, but I will wait the moderator's decision on that matter.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[christelsabine 1]

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Oh, and he was not?

Now we all get it

No. I did not see any personal rudeness against you or someone else.

BTW: Who's *we all*, except yourself?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[tsisson 0]

I shot my gun today...I enjoyed it...now I'm sitting in my living room cleaning it.

I am a maniac...

[rushmc 18]

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As I have been told this is an open international forum.
Does not matter if it was directed at me or not.

No, it does matter. For example, when an opponent provides false information and does not want to admit that he does not have any sources to confirm it (despite his several claims he did), the post directed to him is not directed (or even relevant) to you unless you also provide false information.

And I also consider this kind of "advice" being a PA, but I will wait the moderator's decision on that matter.

I considered yours to be a PA to begin with. Hence the throw back

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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I shot my gun today...I enjoyed it...now I'm sitting in my living room cleaning it.

I am a maniac...

you gun nut you.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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Oh, and he was not?

Now we all get it

No. I did not see any personal rudeness against you or someone else.

BTW: Who's *we all*, except yourself?

Take your pick
Does not change the point

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jsaxton 0]

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Some outlaw biker club members carry a ball-peen hammer in a sheath attached to their belt.

Just wear a carpenters belt, then you have a utility knife too! The chalk-line could come in hand too :)

[RonD1120 58]

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Some outlaw biker club members carry a ball-peen hammer in a sheath attached to their belt.

Just wear a carpenters belt, then you have a utility knife too! The chalk-line could come in hand too :)

Funny thing happened today. I am taking the MSF Basic Rider Course to obtain the motorcycle endorsement on my FL driver's license. Our instructor recommended that we also get a concealed weapons permit. He said they were easy to obtain and only takes about two weeks.

Last week a gun owner's spokesman announced on the AM radio program that FL was actively marketing their CWP outside the state as a fund raiser. He also stated they are easy to obtain and agreements of reciprocity allow their validity in other states.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[aresye 0]

Okay, now you're starting to annoy me, because you're beginning to show laziness on your part. The article I posted did cite references. A quick Google search yielded the exact reference they listed. However, since you seem to want a full article with a bibliography at the end, here you go:

http://www.iowacarry.org/files/Fact%20Sheet.pdf

This may be of particular interest to you:

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* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are
far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where
fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present
when a burglar strikes:
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands:
45% (average of the three countries); and,
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%. Ref. #18

Here's another interesting fact:

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* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at
least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw,
compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole. Ref. #16
* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been
in 1981, before the law was passed. Ref. #17

So now that you've finally gotten your references, are you going to actually look them up this time?

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[georgerussia 0]

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Okay, now you're starting to annoy me, because you're beginning to show laziness on your part. The article I posted did cite references. A quick Google search yielded the exact reference they listed.

I firmly believe that when someone posted something to prove their position, it is their job to spend time searching Google to provide the references. As you can see, I do it myself - I didn't just tell you that "what Kopel said is incorrect and you can find it in Google". I spent extra time to find a relevant link, and copy some relevant data from it to support my point. And I expect the same in return.

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However, since you seem to want a full article with a bibliography at the end, here you go:
http://www.iowacarry.org/files/Fact%20Sheet.pdf

I went through this article. Basically this is cut-and-paste from another research (mostly Klesk), and they do not provide their own data. Makes it very useless for our purpose - pretty much the same way as you'd write your article, and cite the one you provided as reference.

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* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

Unfortunately they do not provide this statistics, so it is not possible to verify this claim directly. What we can compare, however, is the robbery rate. A burglar entering an occupied home is committing a robbery, not a burglary. And the robbery rates per 100K are very similar between US and UK as we discussed very recently in another thread.

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* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.

According to this, in 1982 Kennesaw, GA had population of 5,000 (with 80% of white population). You still consider it a relevant example? You do think we can really compare crime rate there with, for example, Atlanta?

Basically the main issue with this link is that it does not cite any 3rd party source which can be considered unbiased. It is completely based on what other pro-gun writers claimed. Now if you look on my sources, they are pretty much gun-neutral. I do not quote data from Brady or other pro-control advocates. Makes it a little different.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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I considered yours to be a PA to begin with. Hence the throw back

It is very interesting that you didn't consider this a PA to begin with, but considered this a PA. You are indeed very unbiased.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[billvon 2,400]

George, MNeal, Rush - cut it out.

[rushmc 18]

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I considered yours to be a PA to begin with. Hence the throw back

It is very interesting that you didn't consider this a PA to begin with, but considered this a PA. You are indeed very unbiased.

How do you know how I thought about those comment one way or the other??

You a mind reader?

shhheeeessshhh

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[christelsabine 1]

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You a mind reader?

It's not that hard to *read your mind* or follow your train of thoughts.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[rushmc 18]

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You a mind reader?

It's not that hard to *read your mind* or follow your train of thoughts.

You just keep thinking that way

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[aresye 0]

You know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking about putting some rounds down range, and sighting in my new Aimpoint Micro T-1 for my M4.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[rushmc 18]

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You know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking about putting some rounds down range, and sighting in my new Aimpoint Micro T-1 for my M4.

No, I did not know that is what you are thinking
I need to site one in as well and if we lived close enough I might have asked if I could come along. Sounds like a relaxing afternoon to me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnRich 4]

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And finally to the stories. I'm not reading "armed citizen" because I am not interested [in any data that contradicts my own viewpoint LALALALALALALALLALALALALA (fingers in ears)]

I thought I made it pretty clear without your childish editing: I'm not reading "armed citizen" because I am not interested of how a minority of armed people protects themselves from crimes. As I said, like the majority I do not own any guns, so none of those stories are relevant to me.

I do not own guns, and not planning to do so. Therefore a story of a non-gun owner like me who was "saved" from a crime by a gun owner is relevant. A story when a gun owner saved himself from a crime is not because it does not impact my safety. Is it so hard to understand?

Since you are here vociferously advocating that guns be banned, and confiscated by nazi-style goon squads, you have an intellectual duty to research the facts and find out the full range of pros and cons of gun ownership. Your unwillingness to do that shows that you aren't fully informed, don't want to be fully informed, and despite your self-imposed lack of education on gun self-defense facts, you insist on pushing ahead with your false ideas anyway. That earns you zero credibility.

[georgerussia 0]

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Since you are here vociferously advocating that guns be banned, and confiscated by nazi-style goon squads, you have an intellectual duty to research the facts and find out the full range of pros and cons of gun ownership.

I already did. My $200 donation to Brady (the one made in your name) was a result of that.

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That earns you zero credibility.

The last thing I care about is my credibility in the eyes of some NRA zealots, who think it's perfectly fine to have shooting sprees and have children killed as long as they can keep their loved guns.

And the value of your opinion about me for me is negative - the more you say I'm wrong, the more I'm sure I am doing the right thing.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[JohnRich 4]

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If you think Europe is so great, then move back there.

What kind of BS is that, Marc...
Just imagine that about 60 million of your total population stems from Germany, what about the rest???
Send all of them back where they came from...

You're doing it again. That is to say, you're displaying your bad habit of taking singular examples, and extrapolating that one example into some entire population.

He was only talking about those people living in America and complaining about how horrible it is here.
It has nothing to do with all Germans, or "all" of any ethnic, social, religious, or any other kind of group.