Wait. Did I just agree with Pat Bucanan?

[quade 3]

Quote

A Decade of Self-Delusion
by Patrick J. Buchanan
12/29/2009

About the first decade of what was to be the Second American Century, the pessimists have been proven right.

According to the International Monetary Fund, the United States began the century producing 32 percent of the world's gross domestic product. We ended the decade producing 24 percent. No nation in modern history, save for the late Soviet Union, has seen so precipitous a decline in relative power in a single decade.

Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35018

Now, can the remaining deadenders finally please stop defending GWB? I'm lookin' at you Mr. Cheney.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,400]

The republicans will defend Bush, or at least try to blame it on Obama or Clinton. The democrats will defend Obama and blame it on GWB. As a result nothing will change.

What _could_ we do? Start excelling in the few remaining areas we can be competitive in:

Advanced materials - carbon fiber, liquid crystal manufacture, nanomaterials, biological construction techniques, solid state lighting.

Alternative energy - solar panel manufacture, smart-grid products, high voltage DC transmission systems, nuclear reactor design, pumped storage.

Software - speaker independent voice recognition and language translation, digital power control.

Telecom - new modulation/networking protocols for both wireless and wired/fiber communication, spread-spectrum optical systems.

We also have to start being a little more competitive as a manufacturer - or at least stop becoming uncompetitive so quickly. That means more non-union shops and greater cooperation between government and industry. Lowering taxes could help, but doing that right now would be insane based on the amount of debt we've accrued.

[quade 3]

Bill, isn't there going to be a pretty long lag in all of that and doesn't that also leave out a huge number of people?

Materials are all about really high level engineering and research. As much as I'd like to get into that, at this point, there's no way I'd ever be able to make any sort of contribution in those areas. I think it's pretty safe to say that applies to a lot of what you're talking about and the kind of folks that may be out of a job too.

What -do- we do?

The jobs that got shipped out of the country are NEVER coming back. I don't care what kind of tax incentive you give a company. If it can be outsourced overseas for half the price (or sometimes a LOT less), then there's no way to ever make that financially attractive to bring back to the US.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

The republicans will defend Bush, or at least try to blame it on Obama or Clinton. The democrats will defend Obama and blame it on GWB. As a result nothing will change.

What _could_ we do? Start excelling in the few remaining areas we can be competitive in:

Advanced materials - carbon fiber, liquid crystal manufacture, nanomaterials, biological construction techniques, solid state lighting.

.

For years it has been very hard work getting high schoolers to enter materials science programs, and many universities have shut down their UG level materials programs for lack of enrollment. I've noticed over the past 2-3 years an increase in interest. We have doubled the number of freshmen in our MatSci program, and I have 159 students (mostly from other disciplines) registered for my intro course this semester.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Bill, isn't there going to be a pretty long lag in all of that and doesn't that also leave out a huge number of people?

Materials are all about really high level engineering and research. As much as I'd like to get into that, at this point, there's no way I'd ever be able to make any sort of contribution in those areas. I think it's pretty safe to say that applies to a lot of what you're talking about and the kind of folks that may be out of a job too.

What -do- we do?

The jobs that got shipped out of the country are NEVER coming back. I don't care what kind of tax incentive you give a company. If it can be outsourced overseas for half the price (or sometimes a LOT less), then there's no way to ever make that financially attractive to bring back to the US.

Two things:
1.) Education that is not sneered at by those who pride themselves as dumb as dirt and proud of it. If we want to stay a leader in the world we need educated people and workers. Scrap the no child left behind.. teaching to the tests is not a valid education. People need to learn to use their brains not rote memorization of the lowest common denominator to pass a test.

2.) America for Americans. If you are not an American you do not work here. If you hire illegal aliens to work for you... YOU the one who hired them go to jail. If you are an American company you hire American workers. That sure sounds a whole lot more patriotic than the current crap that passes for patriotism.

[billvon 2,400]

>Bill, isn't there going to be a pretty long lag in all of that . . .

Yes - which means we have to make the effort _now_ to have an effect in ten years.

>and doesn't that also leave out a huge number of people?

Yes. Not everyone will profit from this. The old technologies will die, and those jobs will go with them.

>The jobs that got shipped out of the country are NEVER coming back.

There are a lot of exceptions, but as a generality I agree with you. Which is why we have to create new jobs to replace them. You can get anyone in almost any country to create a tech support call center or a DRAM SIMM manufacturing line - but it's a lot harder to get someone outside the US with experience in composite spacecraft design.

>I don't care what kind of tax incentive you give a company. If it can be
>outsourced overseas for half the price (or sometimes a LOT less), then there's
>no way to ever make that financially attractive to bring back to the US.

Right. Again, we have to create jobs/companies/industries that, at least initially, cannot be exported. When other countries eventually learn to copy those skills, then we create a new set of industries.

Don't forget that the Internet came from the US. Hard to imagine that a simple protocol for military use would turn into a hundred billion dollar industry - but it did. And while a lot of US companies got very rich off it, that work is now outsourced as much as anything else is.

We have to do that again, over and over, to retain any kind of a lead. And just as with the net, it will take cooperation between government, industry and education to make that happen.

[quade 3]

Quote

1.) Education that is not sneered at by those who pride themselves as dumb as dirt and proud of it.

Is that what you meant to say?

And yes, that's part of the lag I'm talking about. Pretty much 95% of all people from age 12 upward are already fucked by the current system. I'm guessing that even if we could magically and instantly change things right this moment, there'd still be a 10 to 12 year lag before people with better educations started coming out of the system.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,400]

>1.) Education that is not sneered at by those who pride themselves as dumb as
>dirt and proud of it.

Agreed 100%. That is absolutely critical.

>2.) America for Americans. If you are not an American you do not work here. If
>you hire illegal aliens to work for you... YOU the one who hired them go to jail.
>If you are an American company you hire American workers. That sure sounds
>a whole lot more patriotic than the current crap that passes for patriotism.

Disagree there. If we're to remain competitive, then we need a) the best of the best from all countries throughout the world to create new industries and b) workers who will take the low paying jobs that americans won't to build those products.

If you meant "hire citizens and legal foreign workers" then I agree, and would add that we need to let far more people into the US legally to take those jobs. If there are 100,000 low paying jobs that need to be filled by someone, I would hope that the company who provides them is in El Paso, not Juarez.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

1.) Education that is not sneered at by those who pride themselves as dumb as dirt and proud of it.

Is that what you meant to say?

And yes, that's part of the lag I'm talking about. Pretty much 95% of all people from age 12 upward are already fucked by the current system. I'm guessing that even if we could magically and instantly change things right this moment, there'd still be a 10 to 12 year lag before people with better educations started coming out of the system.

Exactly.. those are the people who usually sneer at an education, that situation needs to be turned around. Until its cool to be smart again our country is fucked.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

>1.) Education that is not sneered at by those who pride themselves as dumb as
>dirt and proud of it.

Agreed 100%. That is absolutely critical.

>2.) America for Americans. If you are not an American you do not work here. If
>you hire illegal aliens to work for you... YOU the one who hired them go to jail.
>If you are an American company you hire American workers. That sure sounds
>a whole lot more patriotic than the current crap that passes for patriotism.

Disagree there. If we're to remain competitive, then we need a) the best of the best from all countries throughout the world to create new industries and b) workers who will take the low paying jobs that americans won't to build those products.

If you meant "hire citizens and legal foreign workers" then I agree, and would add that we need to let far more people into the US legally to take those jobs. If there are 100,000 low paying jobs that need to be filled by someone, I would hope that the company who provides them is in El Paso, not Juarez.

I have no problem at all with guest workers who come here LEGALLY. Then again I have a problem with the dumbasses who sneer at an education and are dumb as dirt and seem to think they are owed an executive salary for menial work and will not take those jobs and decide they deserve to be on welfare if they cant get a job as an executive.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

The jobs that got shipped out of the country are NEVER coming back. I don't care what kind of tax incentive you give a company. If it can be outsourced overseas for half the price (or sometimes a LOT less), then there's no way to ever make that financially attractive to bring back to the US.

They're coming back.

White collar jobs are moving to the developing world for the cost benefits that caused manufacturing jobs to move: salaries and costs of living 1/10th what ours are.

This holds for both established companies and new startups.

If salaries (and costs of living) didn't come down, eventually we'd only have the jobs which needed to be done locally (like plumbing, construction, and medical care) and those guys would be out of business when the rest of us could no longer pay for their services.

Instead developing world salaries + costs of living are going increasing more rapidly while ours are decreasing or increasingly slowly. Eventually we'll meet and jobs will go where the people and resources are.

[billvon 2,400]

>Eventually we'll meet and jobs will go where the people and resources are.

While that may well happen if our economy collapses (thus solving the problem) I don't see that as a very desirable solution. In the past we've been able to make up for more expensive production by taking the lead in development, and I hope we can continue that.

[rhys 0]

Quote

After Sept. 11, the nation was united behind a president as it had not been since Pearl Harbor. But instead of focusing on the enemies who did this to us, we took Osama bin Laden's bait and plunged into a war in Iraq that bled and divided us, alienated Europe and the Arab world, and destroyed the Republican Party's reputation as the reliable custodian of national security and foreign policy.

The party paid -- with the loss of both houses in 2006 and the presidency in 2008 -- but the nation has not stopped paying.

With nearly 200,000 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and another 30,000 more on the way, al-Qaida is now in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and North Africa, while the huge U.S. military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq serves as its recruiting poster.

Again, it is not a malevolent fate that has done this to us. We did it to ourselves. We believed all that hubristic blather about our being the "greatest empire since Rome," the "indispensable nation" and "unipolar power" advancing to "benevolent global hegemony" in a series of "cakewalk" wars to "end tyranny in our world."

After a decade of self-delusion and self-indulgence, we must stop deceiving ourselves.

Wake Up and Smell the Aluminothermic Nanocomposite Explosives. while you all hide behind the lie that your country is the most powerful in the world, you spend all of your wellbing on making a few, very very wealthy indeed.

This is not an accident.


If US citizens were really as patriotic as they would like to think they are, they would question EVERYTHING that has such MASSIVE consequences to the majority of the population.

Instead they simply sit there and take it up the ass while waving the stars and stripes and sending their kids off to die.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,400]

>Wake Up and Smell the Aluminothermic Nanocomposite Explosives.

Wow, and to think that only a few years ago they were just "thermite." Makes sense in a way, though. The "truth" evolved from no explosives (just a missile with a holographic projector) to a military airplane with a pod, to regular thermite, to nanothermite to "aluminothermic nanocomposite explosives." Can't wait to see what the "truth" is next year.

[rhys 0]

Quote

Wow, and to think that only a few years ago they were just "thermite." Makes sense in a way, though.

what is evident is evident, what is being denied is being denied.

Quote

Makes sense in a way, though. The "truth" evolved from no explosives (just a missile with a holographic projector) to a military airplane with a pod, to regular thermite, to nanothermite to "aluminothermic nanocomposite explosives." Can't wait to see what the "truth" is next

Your Government lied to you about 9/11 and it lied to you about the threat.

It also lied to you about the needing to spend more than half of the global military spending on 'defence'.

You sit there and jump on an opportunity to oppose my beliefs while you still choose to 'stick to your guns' (pun not intended) not calculating the repercussions you have recieved, are recieving and will recieve for a long time to come .

You simply refuse to see that what you are trying to defend is an outright lie.

I always knew brainwashing was a reality, but never knew the extent of it until I started frequenting these forums.

Americans (in general) are stupid! Not all Americans and not in all subjects, but the 'faith' that the US population puts in war criminals is something quite remarkable.

The trillions you are spending on the profits of the industrial military complex will only drive your country further and further into the sinkhole.


We all stand and watch, while not realising that we are all contributing more than we can give ourselves credit for...

I'll just carry on and live, I can see it coming, but I am not so arrogant to think it will never happen to me.

You are the ones that will suffer most. and once again i will say 'i told you so'!

There are millions that have suffered with thier lives and well being. but as long as you are happy and live in pseudo peace, then all is O.K. right?

You don't mind that the money you are frittering away is actually causing the deaths and the pain and the misery of millions of people around the world?

Lockheed martin is not in the business of making life fun for people (depending on what you call fun i suppose), and halliburton is not in the business of making your life easier.

they are in it to make money and they are doing a very good job of it, why does the US ecpnomy suffer while these corporations suck the life out of your country?

They will simply squish you existence into the dirt for the sake of a buck.

Good luck!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,400]

>what is evident is evident, what is being denied is being denied.

Yep. And for the truthers, those two things change definitions with great regularity. Thanks for keeping us updated on the latest changes to the 'truth.'

>The trillions you are spending on the profits of the industrial military
>complex will only drive your country further and further into the sinkhole.

How ironic, then, that you are supporting one of the products of that very military-industrial complex, the Internet.

>You are the ones that will suffer. and once again i will say 'i told you so'!

While, apparently, using all the products and services that that hated industrial-military complex has provided you. Good luck with that.

[rhys 0]

Quote

While, apparently, using all the products and services that that hated industrial-military complex has provided you. Good luck with that.

Do you think I hate everything about the military?

I don't, I support the need for a military, I simply despise the overuse of power for personal gain rather than truth and co existence.

Truth and co existence, is that not what the military is supposed to be for?

Your pre emtive wars are not the result of the internet, they are the result of the greed and the love of power.

My father was in the military (green beret commando ,Netherlands) and he taught me many good things that he learned, he is also a peace loving man like myself.

The military also gave us parachutes, I realise these things Bill, I simply am not fooled as easily as you and your denier mates.

The world 'is' corrupt, every facet of our lives we, are mis informed and lured into beleiving a false truth, simply to make money for those that feed the crap to us.

Being able to see through it is not easy, but if you try you can do anything!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[crewkeith 0]

come on man in another thread your telling us how great the world is how safe it is. pick a side senator.

The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

[rhys 0]

Quote

come on man in another thread your telling us how great the world is how safe it is. pick a side senator.

I have never said the world is safe, there are inherent dangers everywhere, ones ability to aviod them will make it 'safer' for them!

I was pointing out in the other thread that carrying guns does not necessarly make one safer. and in most cases guns are not necessary. i don't want to drif this thread so keep that conversation in that thread!

There is corrupton everywhere, and that corruption will contnue at all costs.

In some countries it is more prevelant than others.

in the third world it is obvious, in the first world it is hidden beneath marketing and propoganda.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Amazon 7]

Hey Rhys... question for ya..how good is your japanese?

[airdvr 197]

Quote

Education that is not sneered at by those who pride themselves as dumb as dirt and proud of it.

OK...we agree. But go a little deeper. Scrapping NCLB would be a good START, but it won't fix the problem.

We never noticed the "dumb as dirt" folks before because they could just get some mind-numbing job stamping out widgets all day for the rest of their pitiful lives. Not anymore...those jobs left awhile back. Now we have generations of dumb as dirt who can't do more than flip a burger at McD's, cut somebody's lawn, or re-roof a shed. Too dumb to figure out that nobody's gonna help them if they don't help themselves...oops...that's not even the scenario....just wait for their uncle to give them a cracker.

How 'bout we go in the opposite direction for a bit. Pull them off the government teet and let their KIDS see just how bad it sucks to be "dumb as dirt".

Quote

America for Americans. If you are not an American you do not work here.

Dayum Jean...that's so RW of you!

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rhys 0]

Quote

Hey Rhys... question for ya..how good is your japanese?

Let me guess, you're going to say, you would be speaking Japanese if it wasn't for the US?

To answer your question, I would like to speak Japanese but will most likely learn mandarin first.

That will be the most important language of this century.

Not 'merican.

Don't 'misunderestimate' the sleeping giant, you are all about to get a rude awakening! but not until you have poured all of your recources and technology into it first!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

Hey Rhys... question for ya..how good is your japanese?

Let me guess, you're going to say, you would be speaking Japanese if it wasn't for the US?

You can thank my father and the thousands of his fellow Americans in the 1st Marine Division They were in Wellington until they left for Guadalcanal. A lot of Americans died so people like you can live in a peaceful Pacific and spout the fantasy laced crap you seem to thrive on. Without the scarifice those men made there is a good chance you would never have been born had the Japanese got there.
Please don't forget that ok.

[rhys 0]

Quote

You can thank my father and the thousands of his fellow Americans in the 1st Marine Division They were in Wellington until they left for Guadalcanal. A lot of Americans died so people like you can live in a peaceful Pacific and spout the fantasy laced crap you seem to thrive on. Without the scarifice those men made there is a good chance you would never have been born had the Japanese got there.
Please don't forget that ok.

I have not forgotten, my father was born in a japanese war camp, my Opa was killed by the japanese and my oma was in a japanese war camp along with her 3 sisters and her brother, my uncle that I have never met was a rape child from the said camp.

America joined in when america was attacked, not because they felt obliged to.

japan and germany in world war 2 were real threats.

millions of people have died since 9/11, millions, including hundreds of thousands of innocent children.

They died painful deaths due to american greed, and americas industrial military complex.

You country is FUCKED, due to the actions taken from your leaders since 9/11.

3000 americans die and millions are killed in retalliation, your economy is fucked and you safety has been comprimised, you civil liberties have been removed and we all suffer.

DON'T FUCKING FORGET IT!

How are the us invasions any different from Japans'?

I see japan have evolved into a peacful country, the USA just let the power get to its head and hasn't stopped starting wars since.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Amazon 7]

Quote

millions of people have died since 9/11, millions, including hundreds of thousands of innocent children.

They died painful deaths due to american greed, and americas industrial military complex.

You country is FUCKED, due to the actions taken from your leaders since 9/11.

3000 americans die and millions are killed in retalliation, your economy is fucked and you safety has been comprimised, you civil liberties have been removed and we all suffer.

DON'T FUCKING FORGET IT!

You are not very good with maths are you

Iraq was a clusterfuck and I never did support those who went there for the lies they told.. but Millions.... DUDE.. dig out the chestwaders.. that is some deep fucking shit you are shovelling.

The rest of your rant... more of that interesting fantasy life you seem to thrive on... and NONE of us can forget that