Israel's 10 worst errors of the decade

[Gawain 0]

Quote

I can't find a reference. It was something I heard on NPR (probably last summer).

Also, I'm not sure I agree with it.

BUT - There's a big difference between shooting a few (or a few dozen or a few hundred or even a few thousand) citizens in the street over the course of several months and the instantaneous extermination of a couple million with a nuke.

In terms of numbers, yes. But, it plays to doctrine. Iran has no problem shooting their citizens in the streets. They are therefore willing to sacrifice the populace to their political and ideological goals. If they can cover their own asses, they will let the population suffer (as such could be argued that this is happening already in terms of repelling the protests, enduring sanctions, etc.).

Quote

Even testing a nuke is a huge line to cross. They have to know that it puts them in the crosshairs. They should know that fissle material has a "fingerprint" of contaminants that would trace any of their bombs back to them with little difficulty.

No argument there, however, I wonder if Iran wouldn't try and rely solely on computer modeling just to keep the curtain drawn to the last second.

Quote

So the question goes back to whether or not they are rational enough to know (or care) that any use of a nuke would result in retaliation.
Or if they believe that if they can destroy Israel's retaliatory capabilities that others will retaliate.

I don't know if the US would retaliate for Israel, but I tend to believe so. I think they believe so too.

So it goes back (again) to how rational they are and if they believe that Allah would protect them from retaliation.

Judging by the rhetoric from the government of Iran alone, I would say the answer to your queries is clear. I sincerely hope that the US would continue to stand with Israel under any circumstances.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jakee 1,280]

Quote

Iran has no problem shooting their citizens in the streets. They are therefore willing to sacrifice the populace to their political and ideological goals. If they can cover their own asses, they will let the population suffer

Russia had the Gulags and purges (among many other things). They didn't nuke anyone. China had Tiananmen Square (among many other things). They didn't nuke anyone. America had Kent State. They didn't nuke anyone (else).

Nation's can tell the difference between oppressing their own populace and nuking someone elses.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[dreamdancer 0]

and let's hope that israel is not stupid enough to start a third world war with a blitzkrieg 'first strike' on the iranian populace

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

There's a few experts who think that Iran having nukes would be a good (or at least not all bad) thing because of this.



The question is whether or not their faith in Allah will overcome this reasoning.

Don’t know the specific NPR story to which you refer, but your comments are accurate w/r/t the general argument among a group of experts that nuclear weapons have been and are a source of stability and peace in global politics because use of nuclear weapons increase the cost of conflict, deterring leaders from engaging in war against other nuclear armed states. They typically cite the 65 years since Hiroshima & Nagasaki and the Kargil conflict btw nuclear armed India and Pakistan.

Some comments specific to Iran’s current nuclear intentions can be found here, “A Nuclear Iran: Promoting Stability or Courting Disaster?” by one of the leading experts, Ken Waltz. Other folks who espouse the ‘nuclear optimists’ perspective include John Weltman, John Mearsheimer, Steven Van Evera, & John Lewis Gaddis. The Spread of Nuclear Weapons: A Debate Renewed, by Ken Waltz and Scott Sagan (who takes a different view) is a great starting point if one is truly interested in understanding and exploring the issues. I am happy to provide a more detailed list of references if anyone is interested.

My views tend to the ‘nuclear pessimists,’ e.g., like Sagan, but I also acknowledge that Waltz, et al. have identified puzzles that aren’t fully explained by conventional wisdom or the limited data when dealing w/nuclear proliferation and that understanding the other sides’ perspective, including knowing where it fails or identifies unresolved puzzles, can strengthen my own argument.

Domestic politics do not necessarily correlate to international politics, nuclear policy, and/or the behavior a nation-state when potentially faced with its own destruction (or not). The Soviet Union acquired nuclear weapons in 1949 and China acquired nuclear weapons in 1964. Both nation-states suppressed dissent brutally (domestic politics, internal threat), but have not used nuclear weapons in response to external threats. Otoh, the nuclear program initiated by the Shah of Iran was halted by Ayatollah Khomeini largely based on adherence to strict Islamic ethics (a normative-based policy decision) ... or at least his interpretation at the time.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

One of the myths among whites in South Africa was that "blacks want to throw us into the sea."

But lest we get stupid and forget, that is not the case in Israel, where rocket attacks and bombings are taking place, and where the neighboring countries attacked en mass on multiple occasions. Also ignore that whole Holocaust event.

[falxori 0]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One of the myths among whites in South Africa was that "blacks want to throw us into the sea."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But lest we get stupid and forget, that is not the case in Israel, where rocket attacks and bombings are taking place, and where the neighboring countries attacked en mass on multiple occasions. Also ignore that whole Holocaust event.

and lest we forget that Israel is a democacy and that Israeli arabs which are ~20% of the population are citizens with the same civil rights.

Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank are not Israeli citizens , they are PA citizens.
the analogy to SA is stupid and irrelevant.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[futuredivot 0]

Worst error number one. Paying too much attention to the international community's opinions and media and not totally annihilating the enemy.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Also ignore that whole Holocaust event.

They already have forgotten it! The Israelis that is.

Or is it any crime committed by someone of a Jewish faith is excused by you. Is your loyalty to your chosen people more then to humane rights? humanity? Ethics?

Hypocrisy is one of the worst of humane traits. When you are a hypocrite about humane rights, and people are being killed. As in mentioning the horrors of the holocaust and yet doing nothing but finding excuses for your peoples actions just because you consider them your people is Fucking retarded.


I am sure when the Jews were being forced from their homes, starved, and being murdered they were people like you who did nothing but look for excuses to justify the actions of their people.

Its sucks to be on the receiving end of such hate, It seems many of my Jewish brother and sisters have forgotten that the actions are evil no matter who is doing the action and who is the victims.


I wish my ethical, and moral standing in life was as flexible as yours, life would be so much easier.

For the truly stupid grasping at straws: I am not comparing the number of deaths or the horrors of the holocaust to what the Israelis are doing. However the philosophy of their actions is the same.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I am sure when the Jews were being forced from their homes, starved, and being murdered they were people like you who did nothing but look for excuses to justify the actions of their people.

Its sucks to be on the receiving end of such hate, It seems many of my Jewish brother and sisters have forgotten that the actions are evil no matter who is doing the action and who is the victims.

Where was all this weeping and gnashing of teeth when the arabs and other muslims murdered jews by the thousands???

Where was all that much vaunted justice when in country after country the Saphardic Jews were murdered or driven out and their homes and lands and their possesions stolen that were 3 times the size of the current State of Israel by those upstanding muslims all across the muslim world.

Just remember its a part of the world where an eye for an eye is an important tenent of the LAW as given by GOD/ALLAH.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I wish my ethical, and moral standing in life was as flexible as yours, life would be so much easier.

Ah, but it is. Because you don't accept the creation of Israel after WWII, you excuse every war started, every attack initiated by the other side. Get with the times. We're now in a condition where the people you say are being oppressed are responsible for their suffering. Yet expecting the Israelis to give up any attempt of security in the hope that the racist Palestinians will not continue to try to kill them.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Where was all this weeping and gnashing of teeth when the arabs and other muslims murdered jews by the thousands???

I was born in 76.

I don’t remember ever being for the murder of inocent people no matter who they are.

You assume too much and too often.

Quote

Just remember its a part of the world where an eye for an eye is an important tenent of the LAW as given by GOD/ALLAH.

Unfortunately all religions seem to get used for killing inocent people. I am not one of the people who think we can point a finger to just one. They all have so much blood on their hands. That’s why I think trying to excuse evil actions simply because you think you some how relate because you share the same religion is retarded.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Quote

ah, but it is. Because you don't accept the creation of Israel after WWII

No I understand it was created, however you seem to think it was created out of thin air without any consequences. I am not one to live in a fantasy world. I understand the creation of Israel fucked some people over out of their land and homes. I can not pretend they weren’t there just to make my self feel good.

Quote

We're now in a condition where the people you say are being oppressed are responsible for their suffering.

Its not just the Israelis unfortunately the Palestinian people have been plagued with horrible leadership as well.
Hate brings more hate, murder breeds more murder. Both sides have extreme rights who are racist. Both sides should and could off done a better job. It is a humane tragedy.

Quote

Yet expecting the Israelis to give up any attempt of security in the hope that the racist Palestinians will not continue to try to kill them.

Here is a lesson> Islam came after Judaism and Christianity. Islam excepts Moses and Jesus as profits. Islam is not the religion that excludes the Jews and Christians. Judaism, and Christianity are the religions that exclude others.

Now if you referring to the Palestinians not liking their Jewish neighbors. It could be because the people who have been killing them and taking their land for the past 60 years happens to be Jewish and did make a Jewish state where they used to live.

This stuff is not hard to follow is it? You can understand whom you might hate people who kill your loved ones and take your home can’t you? Or is it ok when the Jews do it?

Cause that to me is racists.


Oh and Jew only roads are in Isreal. But i guess thats ok. Keep making excuses. Live the lie like i said i am kind of jelios wish i could have felxible morals. Life would be easyer.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,476]

>Just remember its a part of the world where an eye for an eye is
>an important tenent of the LAW as given by GOD/ALLAH.

That's actually from the Bible, and it's pretty adamant about it.

Leviticus 24:19-21
If a man causes disfigurement of his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused disfigurement of a man, so shall it be done to him.

Exodus 21:22-25
But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Deuteronomy 19:21
Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

[falxori 0]

Quote

I am not comparing the number of deaths or the horrors of the holocaust to what the Israelis are doing. However the philosophy of their actions is the same.

while I appreciate you not comparing this conflict to te holocaust (which you have done in the past), you are also wrong about the "philosophy" as you call it.

the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a bitter conflict about land, like most wars in history. its long and bitter, but its a dispute over land.
the holocaust was not about land, it was about exterminaton of an entire nation regardless of anything else.

I hope you see the difference.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

Quote

That's actually from the Bible,

Yes, but it is not the rulling law in Israel these days.
it was suitable for biblical times. many aspects of it are relevant today but most are not.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

ah, but it is. Because you don't accept the creation of Israel after WWII

No I understand it was created, however you seem to think it was created out of thin air without any consequences.

The resolution to WW2 had a lot of consequences, a lot of winners and losers. This is no different. And as Amazon has pointed out to you on multiple occasions, Jews in the lands nearby Israel were also expelled in this process, in amounts that exceed that within the country.

Quote

Its not just the Israelis unfortunately the Palestinian people have been plagued with horrible leadership as well.

Yet they get the pass from you. Short of succeeding in killing off all the Israelis, this conflict only ends when that leadership is willing to make peace, and not kill each other for even thinking about it.

Quote

Here is a lesson> Islam came after Judaism and Christianity. Islam excepts Moses and Jesus as profits.

With "acceptance" like this, who needs enemies?

Worth noting there are quite a few nations that will refuse you admission if your passport shows any signs that you ever visited Israel.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a bitter conflict about land, like most wars in history. its long and bitter, but its a dispute over land.
the holocaust was not about land, it was about exterminaton of an entire nation regardless of anything else.

I hope you see the difference.

I do Ori. I understand that the Jewish people were literally murdered just to be murdered. They were exterminated for no reason. So I do see the difference, but there are similarities as well is their not?

And I have always clarified philosophy, and what I mean by that is the idea backed by religion or whatever that you are entitled to something, or are better then someone else simply because they worship a different god, or no god, or are from a different race.

Again I am not saying this is only a problem in Israel or for people of the Jewish faith. However I do have an issue with it when it is a government that has racists pollicies. I think that is always a slippery slope. It is a policy that should never be supported by any one, at any time, anywhere.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

Quote

And I have always clarified philosophy, and what I mean by that is the idea backed by religion or whatever that you are entitled to something, or are better then someone else simply because they worship a different god, or no god, or are from a different race.

so again I will tell you that that is not the base of this conflict. this conflict is about land. it is not a religious war (although some try to turn it into one because it would be benefit them to have 1B muslims against Israel).

You keep repeating this mantra of "the chosen people". Jewish history and rights in this land are not because the bible says so. its because we have roots and a proven history that goes back thousands of years. I'm not saying the Palestinians have no claim here and let's not go down the "who was here first" debate because its irrelevant for any solution.

again, this is not a "race" war, this is not a faith war. its a land dispute.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Yet they get the pass from you. Short of succeeding in killing off all the Israelis, this conflict only ends when that leadership is willing to make peace, and not kill each other for even thinking about it.

I think calling Araft a thief who betrayed his own people is not a pass is it?

I think you wish that I was one sided and irrational so it would make you feel better about your position. I am not. I am rationalist, and a realist who has no nationalism roots. Both sides are guilty and the side with more power bares more responsibility.

Also I do not believe in the idea of Zionism. I think it is a load of shit used to justify murder.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Quote

so again I will tell you that that is not the base of this conflict. this conflict is about land. it is not a religious war (although some try to turn it into one because it would be benefit them to have 1B muslims against Israel).

It is a land dispute, however both sides are unfortunately fueled by religion at the roots.

Quote

You keep repeating this mantra of "the chosen people". Jewish history and rights in this land are not because the bible says so. its because we have roots and a proven history that goes back thousands of years. I'm not saying the Palestinians have no claim here and let's not go down the "who was here first" debate because its irrelevant for any solution.

again, this is not a "race" war, this is not a faith war. its a land dispute.

It is a land dispute however to deny religion plays any part in it is being disingenuous. Also there are such things as Jews only roads in Israel am I making that up too?

I just can’t pretend its ok for any country to act in such a way. A cult yes, groups yes, but for a state to have mandates such as Jews only roads is unacceptable. I am not saying the US should bomb Israel I just think we should not support any country that acts in such a fashion.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

Quote

It is a land dispute however to deny religion plays any part in it is being disingenuous. Also there are such things as Jews only roads in Israel am I making that up too?

what you are doing is taking something and twisting it to make it sound racist.
there several roads in the west bank which are closed for Palestinians after many drive by shootings against Israeli cars. there are also a LOT more roads which are for Palestinians only and are closed to Israelis for the same security reasons.
I can't go in Ramallah or Nablus as an Israeli. according to your logic, the Israeli governemt is racist because I can't go there.

I know you truely believe in what you say but be open to the option that these restrictions (which go both ways) are (justified) security measures and have nothing to do with religion or race.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

Quote

I can't go in Ramallah or Nablus as an Israeli. according to your logic, the Israeli governemt is racist because I can't go there.

Yes in my logic it would, but i see what you are saying. They separate and segregate in an attempted to stop violence.

I don’t believe that will help in the long run, but I don’t live in Israel.

Is it wrong for me to think of you as a very moderate Israeli? Am I wrong to think that there are many Israelis on the right who want the Palestinians to go in to the sea and disappear?

What do the Israelis think about the situation? No one wants to live with the threat of violence their whole life. What do you think will happen or wish would happen?

Is there a general idea or are most Israelis fragmented about what to do much like we are in the US about our problems?

Quote

I know you truely believe in what you say but be open to the option that these restrictions (which go both ways) are (justified) security measures and have nothing to do with religion or race.

I think race and religion is not a part of it for us. but i do belive there are people on both sides who do think of it as nothiung more then Jews vs Muslims.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

Quote

What do the Israelis think about the situation? No one wants to live with the threat of violence their whole life. What do you think will happen or wish would happen?

There are as many opinions as there are Israelis. I think the only statement I can make is that the majority of Israelis are willing to part with parts of their historic homeland if they get peace in return.
the shift you see every few years is mostly due to whether or not Israelis feel they will actually get peace in return.

take Gaza for exampls. most Israelis supported pulling out of Gaza because they were hoping the PA will finally show they can take control and govern themselves. at that point, most Israelis looked at Gaza as an experiment and people were already talking about doing the same in the west bank.
after Hamas took power and rockets kept flying out of Gaza, many people saw this trial as a failure and are very worried about what will happen in the west bank (which is much closer to major Israeli cities).

so, mainstream israelis are willing to give up a lot (which is not trivial) but the problem is that whenever Israel pulled out, it got more violence.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

Quote

take Gaza for exampls. most Israelis supported pulling out of Gaza because they were hoping the PA will finally show they can take control and govern themselves. at that point, most Israelis looked at Gaza as an experiment and people were already talking about doing the same in the west bank.
after Hamas took power and rockets kept flying out of Gaza, many people saw this trial as a failure and are very worried about what will happen in the west bank (which is much closer to major Israeli cities).

so, mainstream israelis are willing to give up a lot (which is not trivial) but the problem is that whenever Israel pulled out, it got more violence.

I hope they will find peace. It would be great if no other lives were lost on either side.

I personally think there would be less violence on the Palestinian side if they had better lives ( I am not blaming the Israelis for that). People tend to be less violent when they have something to live for and more radical when they don't. And hope is huge preventer, and it will be truly horrible if both sides lose hope of peace or negotiations.

Thanks for keeping the conversation civil as always.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

Quote

People tend to be less violent when they have something to live for and more radical when they don't.

agreed.

Quote

Thanks for keeping the conversation civil as always

yes, i'm awsome

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."