The War On Athiesm

[georgerussia 0]

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I beieive that God is invisible, spirit,

This means that you cannot see or touch your God, right?

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light

Not all light is invisible, and even those which are, can be detected. So if your God is truly invisible, it cannot be light.

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and power

What kind of power?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhys 0]

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...To those that are born in a more fortunate facet of society and a real CUNT to those that are not...


Hmmm... that has not been my observation at all. In my observation it is the poor in the most humble environments that seem to posess the ability to hope in God, moreso, than they that have "everything."

Hmm. I don't know which countries you have been to? but I have been to several different third world countries.

I don't consider the people that 'didn't get an Ipod or bicycle for Christmas', as less fortunate. More those that were born with Aids, in a slum, with poison drinking water, a dying mother, no father and 'NO HOPE'!

More than half of the earths human inhabitants are not subject to Christianity and many have no other choice than to abide by what thier peers impose on them (this is the case for christian alot of the time too!).

If your God is so great then why is he a cunt to such a high proportion of the earths inhabitants and so nice to such a small proportion?

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Either way, reading some of your other posts, you tend to lean towards exactly what Jesus is saying. Love one another, but this concept does not work with those who dont recognize its importance as it relates to the earth, not the world we created on it.

Bullshit! I don't see christians giving much energy at all to the environment, maybe once the damage is already done and it seems like a 'nice thing to do' or ethical. it is too late once species are extinct.

We shouldnt need to let a problem happen, before we decide to act, we should acknowlwdge 'through education' what supports our lives and prevent these problems from happening.

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Many of your posts suggest that nature is in harmony, and since we are nature, and not seperate of it, that we can be found to be in harmony with it as well.

Correct but I would say 'relative harmony' as I'm sure the atelope being eaten alive by a pride of lions feels no harmony. I would be more inclined to use the term, balanced!

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It seems your upbringing has had a dramatic affect on your belief in Jesus as the Christ, yet you sound like his voice in many ways.

Of course my upbringing has had an effect on my veiwpoint, to say anything else for 'anyone' would be nieve. I sound like jesus christ in many ways similarly to the way the 'horescopes' seem to fit the bill most of the time.

Jesus' message has been 'fabricated' by addressing skepticism for many centuries. It is 'designed' to make sense (in a vague way).

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Your sign off alone makes me see that you have a connection with truth. People have to find love in themselves, (not for themselves), first, they have to believe in its power first before they can even begin to overcome the love of power, which is much deceptive and underestimated than many of us give credit for.

Agreed entirely!

Have a nice holiday!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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But you said it yourself that you agree with the part of deism which says "belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only". So you do believe in the existence of some god (or gods), and this makes you (2) theist.

I don't really likeusing the term God as it implies that I am referring to something already well know such as the christian sense of the word.

I don't necessarily belive in a god (potentially athiest) and potentially do. The evidence of a progressive evolution of life is obvious, and 'May' have strated at one point or may have always existed.

i am not at liberty to decide what is the case as there is not enough evidence, for 'anyone' to make such a judgement. doing so would be 'out of faith' entirely and based on assumtion.

I would rather wait for the truth to present itself, that willmost likely never happen. i'm cool with that!

So in conclusion, I suggest that I necessarily believe in a god But I cannot dismiss the possibility of there being one.

Don't confuse that with me believing in a GOD but not understanding what it is!



Have a nice day!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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No sonny-boy, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. Read it again, and have a look at where I distinguish between 'fact' and 'possibility'.

Hi daddy'o'!

Touche, I stand corrected.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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This means that you cannot see or touch your God, right

Are you trying to trick me here? As when Jesus walked the earth, then yes, you could see and touch his spirit as it indwelled the physical body? In the Gospels, people were just touching him and being healed. But no, as to the physical nature of God, he is invisible spirit and henceforth cannot be seen in a physical nature as we see or touch. However, his power can be seen and touched... I cant believe I said henceforth.

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Not all light is invisible, and even those which are, can be detected. So if your God is truly invisible, it cannot be light.

One of the greatest revelations of God for me was his light. There seems to be not otherway of describing it, but everything just sort of lights up, literally. I never saw the way I saw after I repented and prayed for the Holy Spirit... it was like I was seeing everything in its pure and beautiful nature for the first time. I cannot speak against the light that fascinates my eyes and brings something incredible into my being. Its like communing with nature, as nature... the light makes everything more beautiful... as it is in nature. Its not photons emitted from the energy being displaced in the sun, or something like that... Its so much deeper, at least for me.

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What kind of power?

If I could relay that to you, you definitely wouldnt have to ask.. I wish I could brother, believe me... I can tell you however, that it goes beyond emotions, and even feelings. The best way I can put it, is if you have a cut on your flesh, its easy to see and treat,,,, but if you have a cut on your soul, seeing it is a little more elusive, and treating it is sometimes the difference between life and death. Similarly, when the cut on the soul is treated, there is an indescribable healing that begins... the power is somewhere connected with all of it. Sorry man, thats all I got. Merry Christmas nonetheless.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rhys 0]

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So in conclusion, I suggest that I necessarily believe in a god But I cannot dismiss the possibility of there being one.

that should say;

So in conclusion, I don't necessarily believe in a god But I cannot dismiss the possibility of there being one.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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So in conclusion, I suggest that I necessarily believe in a god But I cannot dismiss the possibility of there being one.

that should say;

So in conclusion, I don't necessarily believe in a god But I cannot dismiss the possibility of there being one.

How do you feel about the possibility of the Easter Bunny?

[rhys 0]

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One of the greatest revelations of God for me was his light. There seems to be not otherway of describing it, but everything just sort of lights up, literally. I never saw the way I saw after I repented and prayed for the Holy Spirit... it was like I was seeing everything in its pure and beautiful nature for the first time. I cannot speak against the light that fascinates my eyes and brings something incredible into my being. Its like communing with nature, as nature... the light makes everything more beautiful... as it is in nature. Its not photons emitted from the energy being displaced in the sun, or something like that... Its so much deeper, at least for me.

Are you sure someone didn't slip [url"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_mushrooms"]majic mushrooms[/url] in your tea?





Seriously, when I was about 20 years old I did experiment with some drugs, Majic mushrooms were everywhere and I tried some, I took 'too many' on my first time and potentially almost killed myself, at least that is what it felt like at the time.

But having said that, I could see the aura of the people and animals around me, the plants seemed to react to my being near them and I could see 'maori' faces with 'Moko' peering over me. in a room the i 'knew' a maori person had died in not long before the time.

I was communicating with people that were not there, I was imagining things we do not usually imagine, and I felt more intouch with nature than I have ever felt before.

Was this all actually happening? or a figment of my 'imagination'?

It took me some time (about 6 months) to feel somewhat normal again after that, and have since blacklisted any hallucinagens, but still remeber reasonably vividly the begining and end of the trip, the middle was intense and i cannot quite remember what happened there, but it definately changed my view on life 'Forever'!

The 6 month recovery period was not anything physical, but was more my 'discovery' of the 'evil' things in life that I had only just become aware of. We human beings are very selfish most of the time and we would rather not even consider the consequences of our actions, especially if it makes it more difficult for us in the short term, doing so.

I was more in touch with nature after that and have much more compassion for anything that is subject to suffering, be it our environment, our fellow animals or human beings.

Ergot was commonly ground into the wheat flour over history.

Magic mushrroms are also well documented over history, They both have 'most likely' been around longer than human beings.

The 'type' of 'visions' that I had may have shaped history more than you would be willing to acknowledge.

In history no one would have been aware of what was happening to them, 'witchcraft' or similar, would have been blamed many times and the very people that were aware of 'some' of the healing potentials of plants and other products were blamed and burned on the stake.

Christaianity and many other religons 'may' have been shaped by the use 'intentionally' and 'unintentonally' over the lat few Millenia.

Still, 'nobody' has the knowledge to prove beyond reasonable doubt what the origin of life is, yet so many are willing the bet thier life on it!

Sad really!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Hmm. I don't know which countries you have been to? but I have been to several different third world countries.

I don't consider the people that 'didn't get an Ipod or bicycle for Christmas', as less fortunate. More those that were born with Aids, in a slum, with poison drinking water, a dying mother, no father and 'NO HOPE'!

Depends what you consider 3rd world... you mean where Americas heading?? (relax JK)... Without getting into it, yes I have been to enough 3rd's to know the truth. No matter where you go there are the "less fortunate", and Jesus says we can help them anytime we like... I welcome all advancements in medicine, healing, and helping others... but im no saint either, I would rather pay for a jump than send that money to people who really need it, again, none of us are perfectly good. However, if anyone comes to me I will tell them of the the beautiful hope I found in the love of God. But blaming the suffering of the world on God is only going to take you further from him. Being blameless is one of the greatest lessons in life.

I will however say, that no measure of goodwill toward men will find the grace of God. The grace of God has to be believed and recieved. The days of "earning your way into Heaven" are over. Buy a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he will teach others, and they will all eat as long as there are fish. Give out of genuine love, not to prove to yourself that you dont need God to do good. You may not, but others, especially the ones you mentioned... do. I still dont understand the benifit of blaming God for others' "misfourtune" while at the same time not aknowledging any of your own blessings... Its like being bitter toward the opprotuntiy you had becasue others did not have the same opprotunities, instead of finding gratitude for what you do have and empathy for what others do not...

but your right, it makes for a very convincing argument for those who may never understand that hope is found through suffering... that the light is found through the darkness, that life is found through death, that love is found through rejection, that the spirit is found through the flesh... of course I could go on... but im sure you cant wait to call that bullshit as well

Consider it this way... if you were wrong, and there really is a reason to hope, then you stood for something that goes against hope, thinking the whole time just the opposite.

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Bullshit! I don't see christians giving much energy at all to the environment, maybe once the damage is already done and it seems like a 'nice thing to do' or ethical. it is too late once species are extinct. We shouldnt need to let a problem happen, before we decide to act, we should acknowlwdge 'through education' what supports our lives and prevent these problems from happening.

Do you think that your going to stop the problems and the suffering in the world by "getting rid" of Jesus? If they gave you an award for understanding the Gospel, I have to question how based on some of the things you say and think about Christ (no offense intended). And the envioronment is everyones responsiblity and fault. Blaming it on Christians just sounds way unfair man. What, do you live in a tent out in the middle of nowhere or something? I know you skydive, so at least we know you make a living off of Jet A or JP8... plus, the hydraulic fluid, oil, grease, rubber, surely some anti-seize, and any good mechanic is gonna have some epoxy handy!

The enviornment was handed down to us, our "job" is to do our part, other than that, no matter how much worry or concern you put into the matter, no matter how much blame you post, we have become far too dependant on the very things that are destroying the envioronment. The way I see it, is do what you can, then stop worrying and let be, be. But if you insist on blaming someone, make sure to blame yourself at the same time

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We shouldnt need to let a problem happen, before we decide to act, we should acknowlwdge 'through education' what supports our lives and prevent these problems from happening.

Agreed... but change is ineveitable. Jesus is the Messiah (the teacher) but maybe your education might leave his lessons out? Why not blame technology while your at it, and therefore not teach that advancement... or any number of changes that brought us to where we are in this moment?

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Correct but I would say 'relative harmony' as I'm sure the atelope being eaten alive by a pride of lions feels no harmony. I would be more inclined to use the term, balanced!

Fair enough. I dont think we came into the world without pain, and unfortunately, I dont think we can leave it without pain as well... maybe some can I guess. If nature has taught me anything, its that even with life and death we can still find peace. If peace can be found here, in death, then it must be quite a powerful phenonmenon and most likely has been quite underestimated as well... but, we can go ahead and blame that on Jesus also. (sorry, couldnt resist)

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Jesus' message has been 'fabricated' by addressing skepticism for many centuries. It is 'designed' to make sense (in a vague way).

The theme is the love of God for those who believe that God is love. Freindship with others through a freindship with God. Love for others through a love for God... but grace as the seal. Meaning not your love for God, but his love for you. Not your friendship with God, but his with you... Not your life for God, but his life for us... Designed or not, the story is very real in my life, but my testimony means little to nothing here, which is completely understandable. But no hope? Im sorry, but you didnt understand much of the Gospel or its purpose, as your arguing against much of the same things your arguing for.... but I know, I know... thats bullshit. Still, a very Merry Christmas to you as well.

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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So in conclusion, I don't necessarily believe in a god But I cannot dismiss the possibility of there being one.

So it's basically like aliens - you do not believe in them until the facts confirm they exist, but of course it is possible there are some.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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We human beings are very selfish most of the time and we would rather not even consider the consequences of our actions, especially if it makes it more difficult for us in the short term, doing so.

Agreed. But wouldnt the consequences of our actions still exist (indirectly or directly) even if we refused to see them or not? For example.. just because we dont think we hurt someone, doesnt mean we didnt

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The 'type' of 'visions' that I had may have shaped history more than you would be willing to acknowledge.

You may be suprised. I fully acknowledge that similar influencial substances have been in existance since the beginning, and also have had great impact on man, both in good and bad ways. And yes, as a very curious creature, I have tried mushrooms... nothing like what your describing has ever happened, but I have heard stories of course, and do not at all doubt your experience or question your validity. I wasnt in the outback when I went to Australia, I was at Byron Bay getting my AFF and diving the reef!

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Still, 'nobody' has the knowledge to prove beyond reasonable doubt what the origin of life is, yet so many are willing the bet thier life on it!

I really could care less what the origin of life is. Jesus didnt come preaching the origin of life... he came preaching life itself. What good is it to know how life began if you cant use the greater qualities of goodness in it? Lets just say you and I know without a doubt, 100 percent for sure the origin of life. Okay, now what? Does love, compassion, joy, sensativity, hope, faith, unity, truth, mercy, understanding, peace (just to name a few) just fall by the wayside? Do you see my point? Why im not at all interested in the beginning or actual origin of life?

You speak about an out of body experience. Anyone who has truly ever been in love feels alive... moreso than most have ever felt before. Love will make someone see that life is simply greater and something more than just being alive. If I am alive but have no life in me, then im actually closer to death but im not dead. The point is that there is life beyond just being alive, and there is a death beyond just dying. Now, I know many wont understand that at all, but its the closest I can get to explaining what life is for me, and as you can see, it has nothing to do with the scientific/physical origin.

"We didn't start the fire"

[hcsvader 1]

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There is no higher purpose to this life. Your only function as a living being to fuck another of your species and procreate, feed your offspring, protect them until they can survive on thier own and insure the survival of your species. once this is done you can go skydive.

So basically Eat, Fuck, Skydive! Life is simple. There is no need for god.

You may feel differently someday. The soul is a very deep thing. It becomes increasingly difficult to satisfy it with objects of the flesh. Eat, fuck, skydive all you want, but at least stay open to the deeper desires of the soul as they begin to hunger more and more.

What are the other deeper desires of the soul? I wanna eat, I wanna Fuck, and I wanna skydive...

If I could do that everyday I would be in heaven. In the mean time Im happy knowing once this life is over I can finally get some fucking sleep!

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[billvon 2,433]

>Explain please.

We are starting to understand how universes can be created, how a pocket of spacetime can be pinched off from another set of dimensions and allowed to inflate. If that's the case, that's an explainable cause for the formation of the universe.

>See, I dont believe that. A knowledgeable man understands how, the
>wise man uses that understanding as wisdom intended.

A knowledgeable man can recite the words that describe what someone else has discovered. A wise man understands those words and can apply what someone else has discovered - often even expand upon it.

>Evolutionary or not, beauty has been around from the beginning.

Agreed - but the ability to see it has not been.

> If you can see it, food or not, just give thanks because you know that it
>is possible that nature sees beauty in us as well.

I would tend to agree there, although all too often (indeed, most of the time) we as humans are the source of ugliness rather than beauty. I'm sure you don't need examples of this one.

>Creatures of instinct, and thats it.

No, you missed the whole point of my answer. We START with instinct and reflex and we build on it. That's why we have a morality that has a (relatively) common basis - because we are all creatures who live in the same world, with the same desires and drives.

But we go far beyond that. Sure, we have a built-in instinct to protect ourselves, our families and our friends. But we often choose to go beyond that and protect strangers from harm. Yes, men have a desire to rape. But we usually choose to suppress most of that and express it only when we (that is, our higher selves) decide it's OK to do so. And that makes us better people.

If we were creatures of instinct we would not have achieved anything beyond a pretty savage and barbaric way of life. If we had no instinct we'd have no commonality amongst the people of the world. But since we have instinct, and since we have the brains to be able to exceed it, we have built a lot of pretty good things in this world, and we can see how we're all related despite our superficial differences.

> Not creatures with the ability to commune with God in a deep and
>inexpressible way?

Again, you miss the point. We HAVE done that. Not by being creatures of instinct, or creatures of pure intellect unsullied by base drives, but by being a unique mix of the two. To use your own example, the crucifixion of Christ was by any measure a pretty horrific and evil thing to do - but through that many people have a belief that now comforts them and brings them closer to grace. That's a good result from a pretty base (and once common) drive.

>Not everything is meant to be understood.

I disagree. If we do not understand something, it is because we are not smart enough or perceptive enough to understand it - not because there are things that have been 'designed' to be beyond us. It is our lot in life to never understand everything - but the best among us get us a little closer to that point.

>Is your point becoming that both the universe and the earth are un-fit
> for peaceful existance?

Not at all. Peace (or war) is a human construct, and as a human construct, we can decide which we want. A planet by itself is not peaceful or warlike; only the beings on it can create either way of life.

[rhys 0]

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Depends what you consider 3rd world... you mean where Americas heading?? (relax JK)... Without getting into it, yes I have been to enough 3rd's to know the truth. No matter where you go there are the "less fortunate", and Jesus says we can help them anytime we like... I welcome all advancements in medicine, healing, and helping others... but im no saint either, I would rather pay for a jump than send that money to people who really need it, again, none of us are perfectly good. However, if anyone comes to me I will tell them of the the beautiful hope I found in the love of God. But blaming the suffering of the world on God is only going to take you further from him. Being blameless is one of the greatest lessons in life.

What a load of drivel!

I don't consider the USA anything close to third world, although there are people living in 3rd world conditions there.

It seem as though in your eyes, God is good to you, and you know the love of God, it is o.k. that some 'learn' from suffering 'their entire short painful lives' simply to find hope in the christians pathetic interpretation of how things are?


If you wish to do think only of yourself and ignore the needs of others, you can live a luxurious life. If you give all of your time, energy and recources away to others, then you will have nothing. In a balanced world between these two choices we will all have a nice co existence.


The greed that has been 'bred' is too strong for the amount of love we currently are willing to give.

Sadly it seems to take a catastophe for 'everyone' to see eye to eye and move towards real positive change.

Any usually those decisions are usually skewed to the advantage of 'those in charge'.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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What are the other deeper desires of the soul? I wanna eat, I wanna Fuck, and I wanna skydive...

If I could do that everyday I would be in heaven. In the mean time Im happy knowing once this life is over I can finally get some fucking sleep!

I live in heaven!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[georgerussia 0]

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Are you trying to trick me here? As when Jesus walked the earth, then yes, you could see and touch his spirit as it indwelled the physical body?

Yes. If your God is invisible, and Jesus is God, how come the people claimed to see him? So either your God did not want anyone to ever see him (then the whole Jesus story is bogus), or your Gos was ok with people seeing him (and then it's not clear why it is not the case anymore - even a Pope can be seen by anyone around the world).

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In the Gospels, people were just touching him and being healed. But no, as to the physical nature of God, he is invisible spirit and henceforth cannot be seen in a physical nature as we see or touch. However, his power can be seen and touched... I cant believe I said henceforth.

How do you know you see and touch the power of the God? I see no realistic way to confirm it unless you just believe in it (and then you do not know).

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One of the greatest revelations of God for me was his light. There seems to be not other way of describing it, but everything just sort of lights up, literally. I never saw the way I saw after I repented and prayed for the Holy Spirit... it was like I was seeing everything in its pure and beautiful nature for the first time. I cannot speak against the light that fascinates my eyes and brings something incredible into my being. Its like communing with nature, as nature... the light makes everything more beautiful... as it is in nature. Its not photons emitted from the energy being displaced in the sun, or something like that... Its so much deeper, at least for me.

It more and more looks to me like you're describing a mental state, not a higher being. And such a mental state can be achieved through various means (for example, using drugs or sleep abstinence), so it does not require any higher being.

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If I could relay that to you, you definitely wouldnt have to ask.. I wish I could brother, believe me...

So basically what you're saying that you have your own definition of God, which is unique to you, and may not be experienced by anyone else, is that right?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Im happy knowing once this life is over I can finally get some fucking sleep!

Rest is one of the desires of the soul.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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We are starting to understand how universes can be created, how a pocket of spacetime can be pinched off from another set of dimensions and allowed to inflate. If that's the case, that's an explainable cause for the formation of the universe

Not to be argumentive, but that sounds more like an effect rather than a cause. The question is more of a why. Why does the universe continously move, adapt, create, destroy... change, and still all without purpose? This is a fundamental question for anyone seeking truth in life.

Could there possibly be something, not nothing, but something that is intelligently a part of these phenomeon? Yes, No, maybe... how one decides this for themselves is of great importance to what they become in relation to all things... not difinitivly of course, but also not without impact in regard to the balance of creativity and destruction. Building thoery after theory, and proving them, does not seem to be able to address the fundamental question of why. Unless I just totally missed your point?

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Agreed - but the ability to see it has not been

I would argue against that personally. Perhaps better to say the ability to see (experience) it may not have been.

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I would tend to agree there, although all too often (indeed, most of the time) we as humans are the source of ugliness rather than beauty. I'm sure you don't need examples of this one

Nope, I agree, but also beauty. So, we know there is ugliness and beauty in us... no point in the glass half empty here (this discussion) anyway. I may have to find the heart to forgive and understand my murderer, and my murderer may find grace through my murder. So beauty can be found even in ugliness, as both the victim and the murderer can find grace through an act of ugliness. Sorry I went so extreme with the analogy.

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No, you missed the whole point of my answer.

Yeah, I think we all do that from time to time huh?!

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We START with instinct and reflex and we build on it. That's why we have a morality that has a (relatively) common basis - because we are all creatures who live in the same world, with the same desires and drives

So we all have life, and it seems that life has desires and drives that are common to that which it inhabits. I think we are agreeing here, but i dont want you to assume Im telling you what you beleive.

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But we often choose to go beyond that and protect strangers from harm. Yes, men have a desire to rape. But we usually choose to suppress most of that and express it only when we (that is, our higher selves) decide it's OK to do so. And that makes us better people.

And so we sort of agree that there is a morality or conscience in the higher-self. I believe that is a trait of life in our being, you may feel differently... nevertheless, it is there for some (possibly all)... that conscience thing. Merely survival and instinct or not, but powerful and moving nonetheless.

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If we had no instinct we'd have no commonality amongst the people of the world. But since we have instinct, and since we have the brains to be able to exceed it, we have built a lot of pretty good things in this world, and we can see how we're all related despite our superficial differences.

I would just replace intinct with life and say that we have the ability to understand some of nature as it relates to life itself rather than that it gives life to. If we all stand together becasue we all have life, we may find sacredness in life itself, rather than in our own lives (not that there isnt sacredness in those)... That is, no one could say that their life is more sacred than someone elses. Unity is one of Jesus' greatest lessons, as love by its very nature is a uniting force that goes way beyond superficial differences.

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Again, you miss the point. We HAVE done that. Not by being creatures of instinct, or creatures of pure intellect unsullied by base drives, but by being a unique mix of the two. To use your own example, the crucifixion of Christ was by any measure a pretty horrific and evil thing to do - but through that many people have a belief that now comforts them and brings them closer to grace. That's a good result from a pretty base (and once common) drive

Im starting to think you may have missed my intial point in those statements, because i do believe we are not simply creatures of instinct. I do believe that we must be instinctive before we can be spiritual ("must be born of water and spirit"). I was presenting an argument for those who think we are merely creatures of instinct... clearly you are not one of them, and neither am I.

Whats more is that I am an avid believer that Gods plan for sinful man was to create a being with the power (ability) to commune with his perfection (or stand in his glory), and that in this (or any) existance, this can only be done by grace. That is God gives us his power to commune with him.

Im sure you remember somewehre in the Bible where (moses?) asked to see the Glory of God and was told that he would die if he did? Ill have to find it again. but to fathom such an awesome power of the universe is unfathomable without an eternal timeline. It would be like an extreme overload of the mind without the ability to retain, process, understand, or even use the information. Wisdom, Love and power in such a magnitude would be like trying to touch the sun. There is a glory in life that we are all apart of, but it doesnt exist because we do, it exists because life does. There is alot to say on this, but... What man can become is not a testament to man, but to the glory of life in man.

>Not everything is meant to be understood.

I disagree. If we do not understand something, it is because we are not smart enough or perceptive enough to understand it - not because there are things that have been 'designed' to be beyond us. It is our lot in life to never understand everything - but the best among us get us a little closer to that point.

Once again, I think we are saying the same thing. If not, then I strongly disagree with you. We will never understand everything unless everything wants to be understood. In fact, I believe our minds were/are designed not to. The one who looks for understanding in everything may miss one of lifes greatest revelations... love.

Some people at times feel quite "unlovable" and could never truly understand why anyone would love them, but that does not mean they arent loved... this is true even if you are not a follower of Jesus, but definitely moreso if you are, as it is the essence of grace.

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Not at all. Peace (or war) is a human construct, and as a human construct, we can decide which we want. A planet by itself is not peaceful or warlike; only the beings on it can create either way of life.

You and I have very different revelations of peace. A oneness with the universe... in the direct center of the balance... a perfect existance with a perfect creator... a rock that cannot be moved... a treasure that cannot be taken.. a hope that is pure, real, and true... a life in rest. Sorry about all the poetic stuff, but... I dont believe that peace exists only becasue we do, because when we die, the peace does not die with us, nor does the truth. You and I will just have to disagree on this one. Certainly wont be the first time.

Right or Wrong, with good intent or misguided intent, hope is something that is great and cannot be taken, although I believe it can be given away by the influence of the theif (that which tries to take it)

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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It seem as though in your eyes, God is good to you, and you know the love of God, it is o.k. that some 'learn' from suffering 'their entire short painful lives' simply to find hope in the christians pathetic interpretation of how things are? If you wish to do think only of yourself and ignore the needs of others, you can live a luxurious life. If you give all of your time, energy and recources away to others, then you will have nothing. In a balanced world between these two choices we will all have a nice co existence.

Because I love God you seem to assume that he has always been "good" to me? The truth is that pain has been a big part of my life, and I wouldnt want anyone to have to go through any of it, but, I would go through it all again to find what I found, that is for sure.

Still, you expected an answer for one of the most difficult questions... now lets hear yours. The balance? Clearly you have not read many of my posts. I am a strong believer in the balance. Cut and Dry it anyway you like, Jesus offers hope and you (we) offer nothing, but a vague attempt of "explanation" that favors your opprotunistic lifestyle, and not the truth.

The truth is that you and I are both greedy... in fact, all sinful man is. Now, I ask you why? Why are we greedy? You have said becasue we were bred into it, and I still maintain that not just us (this particualr generation). I have said that light requires dark to be recongized, therefore content requires greeed, grace requires sin, and so forth.

Both a poor man and a rich man can find content, likewise a healthy man and a sick man can find hope. I dont think our hearts are very different when it comes to empathy, but you have a very strong bitterness with the most empathetic man who ever lived... and that is confusing me. Christians in Australia must be stabbing one another and stealing from the poor or something?

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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How do you know you see and touch the power of the God? I see no realistic way to confirm it unless you just believe in it (and then you do not know).

I remember you had a hard time with this a couple of years ago and I remember exactly what you said (if you like you can test me). But... I want to hear what your heart says, and if its the same as before, then that question may be increasingly difficult for you to have answered.
How do you know that you love anything without belief?

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It more and more looks to me like you're describing a mental state, not a higher being. And such a mental state can be achieved through various means (for example, using drugs or sleep abstinence), so it does not require any higher being

Oh its a mental state alright... but one that has not even come close to fading. The revelation, at least for me was not without a deep and ever giving experience of perfect love. If a drug could've taken me there, I would be promoting it, instead of Jesus.

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So basically what you're saying that you have your own definition of God, which is unique to you, and may not be experienced by anyone else, is that right?

No, not at all. What Im saying is that if you found what many have found in Christ, then you wouldnt have to ask what power I was speaking about. But, yes, that power is extremely unique and personally fulfilling with each individual. We all have different weaknesses, some similar of course, but different minds, different perceptions...

Think of the sun as its light spreads across a field of flowers. Each flower is unique, similar, different, but the light that makes them grow is the same.

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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I remember you had a hard time with this a couple of years ago and I remember exactly what you said (if you like you can test me). But... I want to hear what your heart says, and if its the same as before, then that question may be increasingly difficult for you to have answered.

Well, my heart cannot say anything as it cannot speak. And it was actually a question to you - how can you be sure that what you're touching is the power of the god?

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Oh its a mental state alright... but one that has not even come close to fading. The revelation, at least for me was not without a deep and ever giving experience of perfect love. If a drug could've taken me there, I would be promoting it, instead of Jesus.

But you cannot be sure that you achieved this state through Jesus - you can only guess.

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No, not at all. What Im saying is that if you found what many have found in Christ, then you wouldnt have to ask what power I was speaking about.

My issue here is that nobody can prove they actually found anything at all, and what I see is that people who claim they "found Jesus" mostly behave the same way as those who do not.

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Think of the sun as its light spreads across a field of flowers. Each flower is unique, similar, different, but the light that makes them grow is the same.

No, this is bad analogy. You can see and measure the light, and how it affects flowers. You can put a flower in a dark room, and it will typically die. This study can be done by anyone. You cannot do anything like that with your God, and so far all relevant studies (for example the effect of prayer) showed that prayer basically has no effect on their targets.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[hcsvader 1]

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Im happy knowing once this life is over I can finally get some fucking sleep!

Rest is one of the desires of the soul.

And what is this soul you speak of?

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Im happy knowing once this life is over I can finally get some fucking sleep!

Rest is one of the desires of the soul.

And what is this soul you speak of?

Sorry man, you'll know if it ever hungers. Just relax and take it all in stride, stay open, and follow your heart.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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My issue here is that nobody can prove they actually found anything at all, and what I see is that people who claim they "found Jesus" mostly behave the same way as those who do not.

Change is inevitable and always working to satisfy its purpose. I am not a perfect man, at all. Its the heart that changes that is important, and I believe if you know someone long enough, you will see whats in their heart. I am convicted in my behavior, and just as fast as that, I am reminded that it is grace that gives life. I especially dont like conceit, but I am afraid that is a behavior trait that I am working on, learning from, and hopefully that desire to change is at least recognized by someone. I am a sinner, and sinners are not always welcome in church, but, they are welcome in Christ, as he is one body, one life, one God. Sinners who understand grace have hard times trying to portray the love that was given them, with the face of falseness staring us down... I know I do.

Back to the point though... Just because you dont see the change that brings true glory to God, doesnt mean it isnt working in them. It is easy to judge someone when you feel you are not judged yourself, j'ustified" or not, but when grace is working in the heart of the believer,( as Jesus says 'God is always at work') judgement is being transformed into mercy. Some believers are better than others at certain things, (as Jesus apportions grace) but hopefully we are at least doing something with the grace.

I hope you understood that, and at least tried to get the love. Its hear and Love loves the give, and yes, humans are weak in it, but it doesnt mean its not there. It is hard for a sinning Christian to break free and live for grace because there is falseness everywehere, but still, faith, hope and love are the goals. Behavior is something that is part of the world, as its not truly you. There is alot of negative influence that can inspire behavior, and lets be honest, we ALL have things in our lives that affect our behavior negaively, certain moments that maybe in retrospect we were a little at fault for and "could have" mis-behaved a little (whoever defines misbehavior anyway)? I dont know, thats just me... But I believe Christians are trying to give grace, without judgement, in a world that doesnt know grace and feels judged already because of the name Jesus, and of course continues to feel justified judging the Christian and not themsleves. Judgement in Christ offers truth and grace, which is an incredible journey into the deeper revelations of Gods unfailing love... or its not and doesnt even exist. So, what you have is an ever-changing grace filled heart, in a world that is full of judgement... I could go on, but...

Just try not to accuse those, who arent judging you, of judging you, because that pulls bitter energy near, and that bitterness will take you further and further away from grace. I actually wrote a song about that very thing belive it or not! I like to think im trying, im not sure what else I can do, and I think others feel like this as well. Its just that God is the love of my life, and I dont mind how that sounds. Yes, im completely unworthy, and its not a "safe" thing for me to spell out all my weaknesses on an open forum, (there is something very special about a forum of skydivers).... But, the point is, judgement is everywhere, I think Im at least trying. The path to grace seems to be a path of perseverance.

I know I wrote too much as usual, but I cant help it for some reason.

"We didn't start the fire"

[pirana 0]

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There is no war on atheism, the war is on Christianity. It's high fashion to be an atheist these days.

Nothing to do with fashion. It has to do with relevance. Organized religions, as a means to protect their authority, decided on a path of dogma long ago. It was a very poor choice because dogma in the long run is a dead end. Their shortsightedness and provincialism has cost them the ability to grow with knowledge. They are already nearly as bad as reading horoscopes and attending seances. Another century or two and they'll big just as big a joke to about the same percentage of population.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley