How would you like health care to be?

[mike_forsythe 0]

Go for it.

[tkhayes 150]

you forgot the single payer option....

your question is about health care, but most of your choices are about health insurance.... they are mutually exclusive.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

Quote

you forgot the single payer option....

Unfortunately, so have the House and Senate

[billvon 2,473]

-Minimal coverage for everyone.
-Tort reform.
-Anything above minimal/emergent care done via private care.

[RonD1120 58]

The Truth About the Health Care Bills
Posted August 12, 2009

Well, I have done it! I have read the entire text of proposed House Bill 3200: The Affordable Health Care Choices Act of 2009. I studied it with particular emphasis from my area of expertise, constitutional law. I was frankly concerned that parts of the proposed law that were being discussed might be unconstitutional. What I found was far worse than what I had heard or expected.
To begin with, much of what has been said about the law and its implications is in fact true, despite what the Democrats and the media are saying. The law does provide for rationing of health care, particularly where senior citizens and other classes of citizens are involved, free health care for illegal immigrants, free abortion services, and probably forced participation in abortions by members of the medical profession.
The Bill will also eventually force private insurance companies out of business and put everyone into a government run system. All decisions about personal health care will ultimately be made by federal bureaucrats and most of them will not be health care professionals. Hospital admissions, payments to physicians, and allocations of necessary medical devices will be strictly controlled.
However, as scary as all of that is, it just scratches the surface. In fact, I have concluded that this legislation really has no intention of providing affordable health care choices. Instead it is a convenient cover for the most massive transfer of power to the Executive Branch of government that has ever occurred, or even been contemplated. If this law or a similar one is adopted, major portions of the Constitution of the United States will effectively have been destroyed.
The first thing to go will be the masterfully crafted balance of power between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of the U.S. Government. The Congress will be transferring to the Obama Administration authority in a number of different areas over the lives of the American people and the businesses they own. The irony is that the Congress doesn’t have any authority to legislate in most of those areas to begin with. I defy anyone to read the text of the U.S. Constitution and find any authority granted to the members of Congress to regulate health care.
This legislation also provides for access by the appointees of the Obama administration of all of your personal healthcare information, your personal financial information, and the information of your employer, physician, and hospital. All of this is a direct violation of the specific provisions of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures. You can also forget about the right to privacy. That will have been legislated into oblivion regardless of what the 3rd and 4th Amendments may provide.
If you decide not to have healthcare insurance or if you have private insurance that is not deemed “acceptable” to the “Health Choices Administrator” appointed by Obama there will be a tax imposed on you. It is called a “tax” instead of a fine because of the intent to avoid application of the due process clause of the 5th Amendment. However, that doesn’t work because since there is nothing in the law that allows you to contest or appeal the imposition of the tax, it is definitely depriving someone of property without the “due process of law.
So, there are three of those pesky amendments that the far left hate so much out the original ten in the Bill of Rights that are effectively nullified by this law. It doesn’t stop there though. The 9th Amendment that provides: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people;” The 10th Amendment states: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are preserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Under the provisions of this piece of Congressional handiwork neither the people nor the states are going to have any rights or powers at all in many areas that once were theirs to control.
I could write many more pages about this legislation, but I think you get the idea. This is not about health care; it is about seizing power and limiting rights. Article 6 of the Constitution requires the members of both houses of Congress to “be bound by oath or affirmation” to support the Constitution. If I was a member of Congress I would not be able to vote for this legislation or anything like it without feeling I was violating that sacred oath or affirmation. If I voted for it anyway I would hope the American people would hold me accountable.
For those who might doubt the nature of this threat I suggest they consult the source. Here is a link to the Constitution: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
And another to the Bill of Rights: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
There you can see exactly what we are about to have taken from us.
Michael Connelly
Retired attorney,
Constitutional Law Instructor
Carrollton, Texas
[email protected]
http://michaelconnelly.viviti.com/entries/general/the-truth-about-the-health-care-bills

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[marks2065 0]

Thak you for sumerizing it for us, unfortunately the left will call you a liar and probably a terrorist.

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

Thak you for sumerizing it for us, unfortunately the left will call you a liar and probably a terrorist.

Geez! Is this venue that is a given. I predict that Andy9o8 will be the first to pontificate and expound on how I am out of order.

Thanks for the kind words.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

Quote

The Truth About the Health Care Bills
Posted August 12, 2009

Well, I have done it! I have read the entire text of proposed House Bill 3200: The Affordable Health Care Choices Act of 2009. I studied it with particular emphasis from my area of expertise, constitutional law. I was frankly concerned that parts of the proposed law that were being discussed might be unconstitutional. What I found was far worse than what I had heard or expected.
To begin with, much of what has been said about the law and its implications is in fact true, despite what the Democrats and the media are saying. The law does provide for rationing of health care, particularly where senior citizens and other classes of citizens are involved, free health care for illegal immigrants, free abortion services, and probably forced participation in abortions by members of the medical profession.
The Bill will also eventually force private insurance companies out of business and put everyone into a government run system. All decisions about personal health care will ultimately be made by federal bureaucrats and most of them will not be health care professionals. Hospital admissions, payments to physicians, and allocations of necessary medical devices will be strictly controlled.
However, as scary as all of that is, it just scratches the surface. In fact, I have concluded that this legislation really has no intention of providing affordable health care choices. Instead it is a convenient cover for the most massive transfer of power to the Executive Branch of government that has ever occurred, or even been contemplated. If this law or a similar one is adopted, major portions of the Constitution of the United States will effectively have been destroyed.
The first thing to go will be the masterfully crafted balance of power between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of the U.S. Government. The Congress will be transferring to the Obama Administration authority in a number of different areas over the lives of the American people and the businesses they own. The irony is that the Congress doesn’t have any authority to legislate in most of those areas to begin with. I defy anyone to read the text of the U.S. Constitution and find any authority granted to the members of Congress to regulate health care.
This legislation also provides for access by the appointees of the Obama administration of all of your personal healthcare information, your personal financial information, and the information of your employer, physician, and hospital. All of this is a direct violation of the specific provisions of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures. You can also forget about the right to privacy. That will have been legislated into oblivion regardless of what the 3rd and 4th Amendments may provide.
If you decide not to have healthcare insurance or if you have private insurance that is not deemed “acceptable” to the “Health Choices Administrator” appointed by Obama there will be a tax imposed on you. It is called a “tax” instead of a fine because of the intent to avoid application of the due process clause of the 5th Amendment. However, that doesn’t work because since there is nothing in the law that allows you to contest or appeal the imposition of the tax, it is definitely depriving someone of property without the “due process of law.
So, there are three of those pesky amendments that the far left hate so much out the original ten in the Bill of Rights that are effectively nullified by this law. It doesn’t stop there though. The 9th Amendment that provides: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people;” The 10th Amendment states: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are preserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Under the provisions of this piece of Congressional handiwork neither the people nor the states are going to have any rights or powers at all in many areas that once were theirs to control.
I could write many more pages about this legislation, but I think you get the idea. This is not about health care; it is about seizing power and limiting rights. Article 6 of the Constitution requires the members of both houses of Congress to “be bound by oath or affirmation” to support the Constitution. If I was a member of Congress I would not be able to vote for this legislation or anything like it without feeling I was violating that sacred oath or affirmation. If I voted for it anyway I would hope the American people would hold me accountable.
For those who might doubt the nature of this threat I suggest they consult the source. Here is a link to the Constitution: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
And another to the Bill of Rights: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
There you can see exactly what we are about to have taken from us.
Michael Connelly
Retired attorney,
Constitutional Law Instructor
Carrollton, Texas
[email protected]
http://michaelconnelly.viviti.com/entries/general/the-truth-about-the-health-care-bills

What a crock of shit.

[nate_1979 9]

Let's also throw this in there,

NEVER, EVER before has the Governement FORCED its population to purchase ANYTHING... This bill says you WILL BUY HEALTHCARE or you WILL BE PUNISHED. That is a power that they do not have! But wait to see what happens when they pass this bill, it will open the doors for the gov't to force you into all kinds of shit you just dont want. Ron is right, this will destroy us...

Between this and the massive amount of damage that has been done to our financial situation as a country over the past years, we are fucked.

What ever happened to the concept of looking forward 7 generations when you make a change to see what kind of impact they will have to deal with? When we thought like that, we would have deficit but it was just to our own people and we sure as hell didnt try to pull this shit...

I incourage everyone here to take a good look at what is happening in out gov't today and stop taking what they say at face value... Chip away at that gold and you'll find that they just handed you a gold plated piece of dog shit, and we all were dumb enough to buy it.

How about Americans start taking responsibility for their own lives. Right now we want everything from our gov't , but we don't want to pay for it. Give me healthcare --- DONT RAISE MY TAXES --- ?!? Are we really that stupid? China loves it.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[mpohl 1]

Continental European/ Japanese.
Anything but Anglo-Sexan. After all, they reliably screw *any* pooch...

Quote

Go for it.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

-Minimal coverage for everyone.
-Tort reform.
-Anything above minimal/emergent care done via private care.

I agree, but I like my torts teh way they are now.

If we virtually eliminate civil suits with malpractice, etc., the level of care and concern could drop. The fiduciary standard of civil obedience is what makes US care good for those lucky enough to have it. I say leave the pop torts alone.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

you forgot the single payer option....

Unfortunately, so have the House and Senate

+1

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Thak you for sumerizing it for us, unfortunately the left will call you a liar and probably a terrorist.

Uh, we would never tear a page out of your book. BTW, did you hear the latest about the death squads?

[billvon 2,473]

>NEVER, EVER before has the Governement FORCED its population to
>purchase ANYTHING...

Houses. If you do not buy a house, you are PENALIZED through increased taxes. If you refuse to pay that penalty, you go to JAIL!

>But wait to see what happens when they pass this bill, it will open the
>doors for the gov't to force you into all kinds of shit you just dont
>want. Ron is right, this will destroy us...

Well, let's see. We've had tax penalties since 1861. Hasn't destroyed us yet.

[mike_forsythe 0]

Quote

Houses. If you do not buy a house, you are PENALIZED through increased taxes. If you refuse to pay that penalty, you go to JAIL!

??????????? Please explain and give an example of this. I own a home and it changes nothing on my taxes.

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

>NEVER, EVER before has the Governement FORCED its population to
>purchase ANYTHING...

Houses. If you do not buy a house, you are PENALIZED through increased taxes. If you refuse to pay that penalty, you go to JAIL!

>But wait to see what happens when they pass this bill, it will open the
>doors for the gov't to force you into all kinds of shit you just dont
>want. Ron is right, this will destroy us...

Well, let's see. We've had tax penalties since 1861. Hasn't destroyed us yet.

When you buy a house, you get some tax breaks... If you don't buy healthcare you will get additional taxes... One of them is supposed to "stimulate the economy" (which is BS) --- The other one is to push an agenda.

And when has my employer ever been penalized for not providing me with a house?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

NEVER, EVER before has the Governement FORCED its population to purchase ANYTHING...

Taxes are imposed by force. Would you like to try again? Guess who's enforcing this mandate? Yea.

Quote

This bill says you WILL BUY HEALTHCARE or you WILL BE PUNISHED.

You will be fined, I think the first year is $95. If you're indigent, it's all free. If you won't put out the ins cost then you put out the $95. See, if you don;t buy ins and you get critically injured, you become a ward of the state, so how is that fair?

Quote

That is a power that they do not have!

The gov power has to be determined. They can do what they want, I thought you would have figured that out by now.

Quote

But wait to see what happens when they pass this bill, it will open the doors for the gov't to force you into all kinds of shit you just dont want.

And then we'll have ..... cat jugling; that will demark the end of society as we know it. Yea, next thing you know they will force young men to fight a political war.....oh wait, they've done that. If we can live thru the Viet Nams of the era, I think we can live thru $95 fines. If we can live thru a bastardized so-called war that has cost $1T and mounting, I think we can live thru HC reform....let's keep this in perspective.

- Revolutionary War
- Civil War
- Civil rights era
- VN
- Korea
- GWB
- Hoover
- Great Depression
- I could go on all day

....point is, if we can live thru all the above disasters, how is it HC is gonna take us down? Right, the sky really isn't falling.

Quote

Ron is right, this will destroy us...

Uh oh, Ron is right, Rush is right.... I think I see a new radio phenom being born.

Quote

Between this and the massive amount of damage that has been done to our financial situation as a country over the past years, we are fucked.

Well there is a point. We are irrevocably fucked financially thx to 2 losers: Reagan and GWB. We will never see the bottom of this debt but that might not be a bad thing. Yesterday we were 1 USD to 1.05 CAD (Canadian dollar), if we were to fall to 20 cents, 30 cents below them, look at teh value of of stuff. As we fell a dime below Canda's currency under Bush, Canadians were comming down here for the exchgange. Most of our products are real quality, but pricey, so a dead dollar could make us strong and China weaker, which is why they keep propping our dollar up as it tries to fall via loans.

Quote

What ever happened to the concept of looking forward 7 generations when you make a change to see what kind of impact they will have to deal with? When we thought like that, we would have deficit but it was just to our own people and we sure as hell didnt try to pull this shit...

Really? Then explain how > 2/3 of the total debt occurred under Reagan, Bush, Bush. Are you saying these guys weren't forward-looking? Say it isn't so . Actually GHWB was, he just followed that pig, Reagan. He did what he could and I don't attribute the debt gain under GHWB or Clinton to anyone but Reagan; it took then 12 years to tame his mess. They did and then the US voters had a brainfart and elected Reagan's clone, only difference is he isn't wearing diapers.

Quote

I incourage everyone here to take a good look at what is happening in out gov't today and stop taking what they say at face value...

Watch out, Ron is lurking for spelling errors; he's deadly sharp; we call him the back peddler....oh wait, you seem to be conservative, you should be OK.

Anyway, I encourage everyone to do what you say and to also review history as with the Great Depression, Reagn / GWB tax cuts, how the debt has been accumulated, etc.

Quote

Chip away at that gold and you'll find that they just handed you a gold plated piece of dog shit, and we all were dumb enough to buy it.

Hey, the 1980, 1984, 2000 and 2004 elections are over, get over it.

Quote

How about Americans start taking responsibility for their own lives.

Yea you handicapped freeloaders; get the fuck out of your wheelchairs - fakers. And you over there, 20 YO couple with 2 kids; do you really need HC for those kids - they look healthy to me. And you, middle-aged lady, so what about your pre-existing diabetes, hey, the ins co didn't give it to you, why do you want them to pay for it?

Quote

Right now we want everything from our gov't , but we don't want to pay for it.

Right now people want to be healthy and to have jobs. No one is pushing for free breast augmentations, NO ONE I'VE READ. As we've entrusted corporations to extend the nipple, they've doneso long enough to bilk the country dry via Reagan/GWB, so the gov tit is dry to them. Corps are not about to help the people after they've decimated the gov tit, so the gov has to dig a little deeper to bring the people out. Do you have an understanding of the Great Depression? Did corps help us, did tax cuts help us? No, the gov did as they virtually trippled taxes and redistributed. If we go your way, we relly are done unless intervention is realized.

Quote

--- DONT RAISE MY TAXES ---

Maybe your crowd says that but tax increases don't affect the MC and poor. Really, they only affect the top 20% or so.

Quote

Are we really that stupid?

We were in 1980, 84, 2000, 2004. As that is when the country tanked. Care to dispute that?

Quote

China loves it.

Yea, they love lending us money they will never again see

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Well, let's see. We've had tax penalties since 1861. Hasn't destroyed us yet.

In fact the country is far healthier economically under higher taxes than under low taxes.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

Houses. If you do not buy a house, you are PENALIZED through increased taxes. If you refuse to pay that penalty, you go to JAIL!

??????????? Please explain and give an example of this. I own a home and it changes nothing on my taxes.

Then your taxman sucks! I hope you're still not going 1040EZ with a house mortgage writeoff. Go long form, baby. Now there are circumstances where if you buy a really cheap condo or you pay for it cash that you won't have the writeoff, but that includes a minority of people.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

When you buy a house, you get some tax breaks...

You get EXTREME tax breaks on the interest. As well, you can then roll your car, boat and other debt into it and writeoff the int on that too. Please.

Quote

If you don't buy healthcare you will get additional taxes..

Yea, $95 the first year and it goes up a little after that.

Quote

One of them is supposed to "stimulate the economy" (which is BS)

Or encourage you to buy ins...you know, to be personally responsible as you advocate.

Quote

The other one is to push an agenda.

Yes, a healthy society that won't fall onto the state as a liability due to no HC ins. Yes, that's the agenda.

Quote

And when has my employer ever been penalized for not providing me with a house?

HUH?

[mike_forsythe 0]

Okay, it has been about a day and some of the results are pretty interesting and there were a few surprises that I did not expect.
The first thing that awes me is that out of over 4000 pages of proposed legislation only one person doesn’t understand!!!!! I can’t believe that everyone else understands all of the options. The second response that kind of surprised me is that the people here tend to be more liberal and while congress has staunchly refused to address tort reform it seems to be the most important issue here.

Probably the biggest poll item that I missed and would like to know about is do you think that congress should be on the same plan as everyone else? Based on what I see here it would seem that the most cost effective and fastest changes that could be made as a start to change our health care system that are clearly supported by a super majority is no denial of health care for pre-existing conditions, tort reform, removal of state restricted access to all insurance plans and some form of basic care availability for all Americans. All except the last item would have a minimal financial impact, promote more competition and could likely reduce cost.

The biggest issue that I have with how congress is approaching this is an all or nothing. This begs the question, WHY? If you passed the above less the last item (yes I will get to that one) then you could have it passed quickly and at least have a start.

Now for the issue of basic health care for all, I agree with Bill about having basic health care for all Americans and insurance for everything else. I also think that we have become and entitlement generation that is going to bankrupt this country quickly. As a balance to offset the cost and help self support health care and education I would propose that ALL Americans upon becoming adults shall serve for four years in either the military or government. In return, basic health care for life will be provided and up to four years of college.

As for how I view the present health care system and the proposals I will start with saying that I personally have very good employer supported insurance. My employer provides basic coverage at no cost to all employees (15,000+) and other plans with additional fees to the employee. I have the highest plan offered and it cost me $16.87 a week for individual coverage. As an example of the coverage, a little over two years ago I had a total hip replacement and my total out of pocket cost were around $300 including surgery, RX and PT.

I do think that there should be a National health care plan for all Americans. The problem is the way that it is being approached it is a disaster and will probably fail Americans both medically and financially. I also think there should be a National plan for RX. There is a reason why so many Americans order their RX from Canada!

As for tort reform there has to be a way to eliminate the frivolous claims that are driving cost up and still protect us from gross negligence. I am for the pre-tax breaks for having insurance. It promotes better health care and helps the economy.

[mike_forsythe 0]

Quote

Then your taxman sucks!

No, not at all. I own my home and don't have a mortgage or debt. I live within my means. I only have one credit card and that is so I can rent cars when I travel. So my statement stands, I don't pay less income tax because I own a home.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

If you don't buy healthcare you will get additional taxes..

Yea, $95 the first year and it goes up a little after that.

Well, now I can see why you keep saying you can't afford healthcare, if you're only making $3800/year (penalty tax is 2.5%).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tbrown 26]

I go for single payer - i.e. shitcan the entire health insurance industry and turn it over to the government.

That would mean paying for it with taxes, but consider this. I currently pay $127 a week for insuring myself, my wife, and one daughter and I still have to deal with the bullshit insurance company. That's over $6300 a year (they don't take a deduction for any fifth week in a month, which happens maybe twice a year). So what's the fucking difference if I pay it as taxes or premiums ?

I've got a non-cancerous tumor in my head that needs attention on an annual basis. I really can't tell from one year to the next if I'll be employed, or with who, or if their insurance is worth a shit. Or if my tumor would be a pre-exiting condition. All I know is the damn thing won't go away if I lose my coverage. I'm willing to accept a "public option" as a compromise, but there I draw the line. Any plan without a the public option can go fuck itself !

Wake up people, the rest of the world sorted this out years ago. The rest of the world is HAPPY with their government plans - just asking any visiting foreigners at your local dropzone. The ones I talk to at Perris cannot believe that our health insurance is so fucked up. These people are Europeans too, they're not from some mud hut Third World country. Their standard of living is better than ours, and their health insurance is a part of it. It's time America wakes up and getswith the fucking program ! Period.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[mike_forsythe 0]

So let me see if I understand, you want to "shitcan" my health care insurance because YOURS is bad????????? What is wrong with having National coverage for all Americans and leave my plan alone? I am not trying to take anything from you, why are you trying to take my care away from me?