Amazon 7 #26 October 26, 2009 Quote Quote If you dont think that the strong and prepared are not the big winners in your post governmental world. Implicit in non-authoritarian socialist theory is the discussion of hierarchy and power. So the implication that Anarchism theorises anything like this is pure idiocy. Quote Amazon you are full of shit. Just because you announce that the two concepts are the same thing doesn't mean they are. Libertarianism is not anarchism. Yes it is - just not in North America. That is the exact historical meaning of libertarian - the working socialist left aka Anarchism. Quote The anarchists are a whole nother breed..... completely delusional..and has been pointed out, they need a field trip to Somalia so they can live in their wet dream world Third world countries are not a model for Anarchism which just shows how shallow your understanding of the world is. If anything they are unregulated markets - what is called libertarian in the US. Quote I agree with you on the anarchists; but we left that behind as a whole when tribes started living close enough together to willfully share resources. Pockets of it do still spring up - unfortunately. This is also nonsense. Mutual aid, communal living, non-hierarchical, gift economies, etc societies were all prevalent in the past. I love it when psuedo-anarchist bourgeoisie like you come out to play.. its laughable to believe that your idea of a utopia could work.. till everyone was lobotomizedDont you really espouse Marxist ideals.. that have yet to work anywhere? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #27 October 26, 2009 >LA riots come to mind for you??? >How about Katrina???? Let's look at Katrina: The government has been widely criticized (with some justification) for completely screwing up the response to Katrina. As I recall, you were one of the most vocal critics. Yet even so: 92% of New Orleans evacuated, leaving about 32,000 Of those, 28,000 were stranded and unable to leave after the storm hit Of those, 6000-8000 needed rescuing and 1800-2500 were killed So by my numbers, between 92 and 97% of the people in New Orleans provably have a clue as to how to live without government protection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #28 October 26, 2009 Quote>LA riots come to mind for you??? >How about Katrina???? Let's look at Katrina: The government has been widely criticized (with some justification) for completely screwing up the response to Katrina. As I recall, you were one of the most vocal critics. Yet even so: 92% of New Orleans evacuated, leaving about 32,000 Of those, 28,000 were stranded and unable to leave after the storm hit Of those, 6000-8000 needed rescuing and 1800-2500 were killed So by my numbers, between 92 and 97% of the people in New Orleans provably have a clue as to how to live without government protection. Where are they going to run to when there is no government???.. Will there be more incidents like the people shot trying to go across that bridge?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #29 October 26, 2009 >Where are they going to run to when there is no government? Probably the same places they ran to when there was an (ineffective) government. >Will there be more incidents like the people shot trying to go across that bridge? Who was shot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #30 October 26, 2009 QuoteSo by my numbers, between 92 and 97% of the people in New Orleans provably have a clue as to how to live without government protection. It would probably be a lot less if the government wasn't tracking the route of the hurricane in the first place. The govt protected those 92% from being surprised._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 October 26, 2009 QuoteMost of our so called libertarians have never actually voted for a Libertarian candidate Without the insults, you might be fun to discuss things with. Lets try. I have not voted for a libertarian candidate in a presidential election since that vote would be pissed away in the larger scope. So, given the choice of a group I agree with 70% of the time vs a group I agree with 30% of the time... I vote the 70% when the group I agree with 90% of the time has no shot. QuoteSince the advent of VOODOO Economics in 1981 we have gone from a 800 billion debt to 11 TRILLION And since Obama took office it has increased and is expected to increase over the next 10 years. Quote http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/debt-a28.shtml Forecasts published this week by the Obama administration and the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimate that the US national debt will nearly double over the next 10 years to about $20 trillion. and Quotehttp://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/03/17/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4872310.shtml Over $400-billion in debt has been accrued in the 57 days since President Obama took office. And the federal budget he unveiled last month projects even faster increases in the National Debt. It’ll hit $12.7-trillion by the end of the fiscal year on September 30th. The Administration’s four year estimate shows that by the end of September 2012, the Debt will have soared to $16.2-trillion – which amounts to nearly 100% of the projected Gross Domestic Product that year. So, I would not give it all to your VODOO economic thought. QuoteMost of them are ill equipt to live in a world without government and the nanny state... Most are not prepared."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #32 October 26, 2009 Quote And just in case someone feels like taking the challenge - there are actual places in the world which are exactly like this. Mostly in Africa though. Somali comes in mind. Right and the very same people declaring these places as shitholes are the ones saying complete deregulation and abolition of taxes are a good thing. This is what makes neo-cons so much fun to listen to/read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #33 October 26, 2009 QuoteLibertarians ARE Anarchists. Agree and Republicans are right behind thme. QuoteOnly in the US does Libertarian mean the exact opposite of its traditional meaning. Sure, throw in a market that is largely unregulated and it becomes the playground of the rich and greedy. QuoteSo if we put the stupidity of US-Libertarianism aside which is idiotic bullshit that calls for an actual free market and is the strong VS the weak. Then you are left with actual Anarchism which has nothing to do with the strong VS the weak. Well, it just redefines it in this case to be the fiscally strong vs the fiscally weak. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #34 October 26, 2009 QuotePersonally I think they are a bunch of fucking pussies... Most of our so called libertarians have never actually voted for a Libertarian candidate. They are closet rePUBICans who dont want that stigma of being the pathetic losers they really are with the rest of the American Taliban.\ Yes, Libertarians are disgruntled Repubs. QuoteSince the advent of VOODOO Economics in 1981 we have gone from a 800 billion debt to 11 TRILLION. Specifically 900B, but yea, same idea. And all in the name of necessity, as the commies were allegedly comming. Hell, in 1981 they werer trying to find food to eat and paper to wipe with, the last thing they wanted was a war with us. But R's have to find an enemy and if there isn't one they'll fabricate one. QuoteMost of them are ill equipt to live in a world without government and the nanny state... which they so vehemently decry.... to protect their sorry asses.. hmmm I bet you fall in that same category... from a different perspective though. You could not handle living in your idyllic world with no government to protect you Exactly, tehy would be screaming little biches if their mad max world ever came to light. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #35 October 26, 2009 Quote The ignorance lies in those morons thinking getting rid of the government will make for a utopia for them.. just fucking delusional. All that Evil government crap is just that... 99% of the people have no clue how to live without the government protecting them from each other. For what its worth.. most of the same people were good with the LAST government.... so I guess they were good with getting bent over by SHRUBCO... so I see in other posts you seem to acknowledge that the people you're talking about aren't affiliated with or understand the US Libertarian party. So your spray about "Libertarians" is really about anarchists that think they're Libertarians. If you wanted to lambaste them for thinking they're something they're not, fine. If you want to spray about stupid anarchists and their wet dream, go right ahead. But I've voted Libertarian on more than one occasion. I'm not an anarchist, and your continued equating of the two groups shows a lack of understanding, a lack of communication skills, or a combination of the two.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #36 October 26, 2009 QuoteI am a libertarian. I wouldn't say violent anarchist but i believe in little to no gov., less regulation, pro choice on everything, less laws not more prisons, etc. But with 300 rats in the cage, how is that possible w/o anarchy? W/o a solid social system to ensure basic needs, how can you avoid despair? With virtually all the favor going to elite with our current system or with no regulation, don't you think the monopoly will escalate? the top 20% hold 93% of all cash, how is that not the foundation for anarchy? *** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #37 October 26, 2009 QuoteThere are many flavors of Libertarianism; just as there are many flavors of other political/social philosophy. Only one extreme end of that spectrum calls for total anarchy. The centrist position, where most fall and which represents the position of the Libertarian Part in the USA, does look for minimal government intervention in the choices people make. These people feel the government should only engage in a few basic needs - such as defending our borders, diplomatic relations, regulation of essential infrastructure, etc. Labeling all Libertarians as Anarchists is like calling all cats man-eating lions. In general, Libertarianism is a recipe for some form of anarchy. W/o controls, intervention, etc, the strong will crush the weak. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #38 October 26, 2009 >It would probably be a lot less if the government wasn't tracking the >route of the hurricane in the first place. True. Although I suspect people would still read newspapers, watch CNN and check The Weather Channel online. What would the difference be? It might have been 80% that evacuated instead of 92% - but I also have a feeling it wouldn't have been 20%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #39 October 26, 2009 So you really have no point to your rants other than an ASSumption you are making that me as a Libertarian voted GOP...... well I can tell you that's not true in my case. I did vote for Barr. What data do you have to prove your insane claim or are you just another raving mad leftist who cannot stand anyone who does not agree with you? I do get entertained by your posts so please keep them coming.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #40 October 26, 2009 Most of those communications requires sattelite and submarine cables (carribean island comms). I will admit that I am not positive on the ratio of Govt vs. private launch vehicles for sattelites, but I am making an assumption that most of the junk up there is govt owned and nearly all launches was done by the Govt. Also, huge amounts of info about the weather is received from the govt._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #41 October 26, 2009 QuoteQuote The ignorance lies in those morons thinking getting rid of the government will make for a utopia for them.. just fucking delusional. All that Evil government crap is just that... 99% of the people have no clue how to live without the government protecting them from each other. For what its worth.. most of the same people were good with the LAST government.... so I guess they were good with getting bent over by SHRUBCO... so I see in other posts you seem to acknowledge that the people you're talking about aren't affiliated with or understand the US Libertarian party. So your spray about "Libertarians" is really about anarchists that think they're Libertarians. If you wanted to lambaste them for thinking they're something they're not, fine. If you want to spray about stupid anarchists and their wet dream, go right ahead. But I've voted Libertarian on more than one occasion. I'm not an anarchist, and your continued equating of the two groups shows a lack of understanding, a lack of communication skills, or a combination of the two. Bully for you.. you are RARE indeed. I am talking about all of the FAUX-Libertarians.. you know.. the ones who only listen to FAUX News and swallow.. hook line and sinker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #42 October 26, 2009 Quote So.. I really have to ask.. how many of all you self professed "Libertarians" and "Anarchists" could actually live in a world where there were no government intrusion and only the strong survive??? You don't understand the difference between Libertarians and Anarchists, do you? -- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #43 October 26, 2009 Quote So you really have no point to your rants other than an ASSumption you are making that me as a Libertarian voted GOP...... well I can tell you that's not true in my case. I did vote for Barr. What data do you have to prove your insane claim or are you just another raving mad leftist who cannot stand anyone who does not agree with you? I do get entertained by your posts so please keep them coming. So happy I can entertain you so well Mr ASSumer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #44 October 26, 2009 >You don't understand the difference between Libertarians and >Anarchists, do you? Libertarians support the Dewey Decimal system; anarchists couldn't find a book in a library if their lives depended on it. (And certainly wouldn't listen to a socialist like Dewey anyway.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #45 October 26, 2009 There was a time when I strongly considered myself a Libertarian. I started up a Campus Libertarians group while in College in 1987. I worked the 1988 Libertarian National Convention (which turned out to be a complete Disaster, But that is a another story). Ron Paul was the Nominee that year. It was during this time that I came to realize that the Libertarian party was nothing but a Bad Joke. The Campus group that I had started in college ended up becoming nothing more than a place for Filthy Hippies to get together and discuss why Pot should be legal. That was the only issue they had any interest in at all. When the "National Convention" was co hosted with NORML and the key Note speakers were Timothy Leary and Abbey Hoffman.. I had enough. That was the Libertarian Party in the late 80`s. Now they have gone to the other extreme. Nominating the most extreme right wing piece of Shit the republican Party ever had the dishonor of being associated with.. Bob Barr. I am very much a Conservative, I beleive in some of the Libertarian philosophies.. But Bob Barr Represents everything I hated in Both Parties and is nothing short of being a disgusting person and a hypocrite. The libertarian Party has always attracted Nutcases and most likely always will. So I would agree that there are a lot of whack Jobs that call themselves Libertarians. The Libertarian Ideas sound great (Much like socialism and or Communism) but sadly Basic Human Nature will not allow any of this to work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #46 October 26, 2009 QuoteNow they have gone to the other extreme. Nominating the most extreme right wing piece of Shit the republican Party ever had the dishonor of being associated with.. Bob Barr. There is an important difference between a Libertarian (i.e. member of the US Libertarian party) and a libertarian. Bob Barr is a complete tool. I lost a lot of faith in the LP when they nominated him. I am fairly interested in seeing what happens with them next time around, as there is now (mostly because of Barr) a fairly vocal "reform the LP" movement within the LP itself.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #47 October 26, 2009 QuoteThere are many flavors of Libertarianism; just as there are many flavors of other political/social philosophy. Only one extreme end of that spectrum calls for total anarchy. That's not quite right. Even the most extreme libertarians are not anarchists. The dividing line between libertarianism and anarchism is the willingness to allow government to exercise force (anarchists say "no, not at all," libertarians say "only reactively."). That's a very fundamental, and fairly large, difference.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #48 October 26, 2009 QuoteI have not voted for a libertarian candidate in a presidential election since that vote would be pissed away in the larger scope. I vote Libertarian any time that; (a) my vote won't matter because the state I live in leans so heavily one way (California) or the other (Idaho), or; (b) the GOP candidate is from the "moral majority" segment of that party. I do vote for a fair number of Republicans. I've also (substantially less often) voted for some Democrats. But most of the time I end up voting for a Libertarian who has no chance of winning.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #49 October 26, 2009 Quote...me as a Libertarian voted GOP...... well I can tell you that's not true in my case. I did vote for Barr. Oh, man. Why? You could have just written in Ron Paul.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #50 October 26, 2009 Quote Quote Now they have gone to the other extreme. Nominating the most extreme right wing piece of Shit the republican Party ever had the dishonor of being associated with.. Bob Barr. There is an important difference between a Libertarian (i.e. member of the US Libertarian party) and a libertarian. Bob Barr is a complete tool. I lost a lot of faith in the LP when they nominated him. I am fairly interested in seeing what happens with them next time around, as there is now (mostly because of Barr) a fairly vocal "reform the LP" movement within the LP itself. You may be right but I still voted for him over McCain and Obama..... Barr is crazy but I felt better casting my vote for him over the other idiots.... which is sad .... trust me I know. Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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