The Debilitating Myth of the 'Free Market' Alternative

[dreamdancer 0]

clever chap that adam smith...

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There is no free market in health care. Most markets for health insurance in the U.S. are dominated by one or two players. They easily collude to keep prices high, choices low, payouts at a minimum, and new competitors from entering. This is exactly what both common sense and economic theory would predict when few firms dominate a market. Economists call it “oligopoly.”

Hospitals operate as oligopolists as well. I live in a small town in California. It doesn’t matter to me that there are many thousands of hospitals across the country. The “relevant” market for my health care needs extends only a few miles. For most people in America, there are at most two “competitors” in the hospital delivery business, if that. This is not a competitive market. The lack of true choice and the vendors’ incentives and ability to collude, make a mockery of the idea of “free markets.”

Or consider the pharmaceutical industry. Though there are many firms, the vast majority of the prescriptions, sales, R&D, and profits are controlled by very few companies. In many critical drugs, because of our patent laws, there is only one provider. And George W. Bush passed a $700 billion health care law that specifically forbade the U.S. government from using its buying power to secure lower drugs prices for government purchases. So much for the rigor of competition.

There is simply no effective competition in these markets and the results show it. The U.S. spends twice per capita what other industrial nations spend on health care with inferior outcomes. Adam Smith, the founder of modern economics, foretold this when, in 1776, he wrote in The Wealth of Nations, “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

So what is the point in even arguing about “free market” alternatives? It is like arguing for unicorns as pets. It is fantasy. When raised to a matter of policy prescription, it is worse. It is social psychosis.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/24

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[RonD1120 58]

I think you make an excellent point.

When I think of Obamacare, I think of HMO's and Social Security/Medicare treatment for the mentally ill and chemically dependent. I worked in that system from 1993-98. It was horribly abused on both sides, that is, by the professionals and the patients. I saw no evidence of what I would call good treatment. It was mostly band-aids that kept being reapplied until the benefits were used up. The system was overhauled by 1998 but grant funding is not much better.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[masterrig 1]

He didn't make the point... commondreams.org made the point.


Chuck

[rushmc 18]

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There is no free market in health care. .

Of course this correct. There is so much regulation now that prices are inflated because of the government. Prices are what they are today inspite of the government. Prices will go through the roof BECAUSE of more government, if we let it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 58]

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He didn't make the point... commondreams.org made the point.


Chuck

Thank you.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[dreamdancer 0]

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He didn't make the point... commondreams.org made the point.


Chuck

Thank you.

that's ok
dream...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[riddler 0]

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There is so much regulation now that prices are inflated because of the government. Prices are what they are today inspite of the government.

Not sure what you're saying - cost is currently higher because of the US government, or it is higher regardless of any government intervention?

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Prices will go through the roof BECAUSE of more government, if we let it

Fear, it makes the GOP tick. The cost is already through the roof, considering we spend more than anyone else. It's likely that a government run program will drive down individual spending, but increase taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine#Cost_of_care

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A 2003 study examined costs and outputs in the U.S and other industrialized countries and broadly concluded that the U.S spends so much because its health care system is more costly. It noted that "...the United States spent considerably more on health care than any other country...[yet] most measures of aggregate utilization such as physician visits per capita and hospital days per capita were below the OECD median. Since spending is a product of both the goods and services used and their prices, this implies that much higher prices are paid in the United States than in other countries. [112]".

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[kelpdiver 2]

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Hospitals operate as oligopolists as well. I live in a small town in California. It doesn’t matter to me that there are many thousands of hospitals across the country. The “relevant” market for my health care needs extends only a few miles. For most people in America, there are at most two “competitors” in the hospital delivery business, if that. This is not a competitive market. The lack of true choice and the vendors’ incentives and ability to collude, make a mockery of the idea of “free markets.”

Most people in America do not live in small towns.

I have three massive hospital systems (UCSF, Kaiser, St Mary's) within a single mile of my home.

[rushmc 18]

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There is so much regulation now that prices are inflated because of the government. Prices are what they are today inspite of the government.

Not sure what you're saying - cost is currently higher because of the US government, or it is higher regardless of any government intervention?

Quote

Prices will go through the roof BECAUSE of more government, if we let it

Fear, it makes the GOP tick. The cost is already through the roof, considering we spend more than anyone else. It's likely that a government run program will drive down individual spending, but increase taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine#Cost_of_care

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A 2003 study examined costs and outputs in the U.S and other industrialized countries and broadly concluded that the U.S spends so much because its health care system is more costly. It noted that "...the United States spent considerably more on health care than any other country...[yet] most measures of aggregate utilization such as physician visits per capita and hospital days per capita were below the OECD median. Since spending is a product of both the goods and services used and their prices, this implies that much higher prices are paid in the United States than in other countries. [112]".

It is higher because of gov and it will be higher if they get their mitts on it. Prove me wrong by providing for me one program that has operated within or under its budget, ever.

And yes, we do spend a ton of money. But, as I have stated, states mandate coverages, the states insurance dept will not allow cross state competition. All this increases cost. Madates for non health procedures are prevalent in all states. Want to see one of the worst? Look at CA.

Limiting law suit rewards will also be huge. And looser pays laws will help keep the shark fringe from filing law suits with small enough recovery dollars (so the compaies settle out of court) would be a great step too.


No fear my friend, straight talk. Governement transfers wealth..It destroys much and creates nothing. You just want to make it bigger

Also, 80% of the new drugs come out of US research

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[chuckakers 370]

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There is no free market in health care.

Actually there is. No one is forced to buy insurance. You can pay for medical care yourself if you prefer.

Pick the doctor you want and go. Hell, a lot of docs give discounts to people paying cash instead of using health care insurance. Saves 'em money and keeps 'em from having to wait for reimbursenment.

Sounds like free market to me.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[masterrig 1]

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Quote

There is no free market in health care.

Actually there is. No one is forced to buy insurance. You can pay for medical care yourself if you prefer.

Pick the doctor you want and go. Hell, a lot of docs give discounts to people paying cash instead of using health care insurance. Saves 'em money and keeps 'em from having to wait for reimbursenment.

Sounds like free market to me.

I have paid cash for medical care and it turned-out to be cheaper than my insurance deductable!


Chuck

[dreamdancer 0]

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There is no free market in health care.

Actually there is. No one is forced to buy insurance. You can pay for medical care yourself if you prefer.

Pick the doctor you want and go. Hell, a lot of docs give discounts to people paying cash instead of using health care insurance. Saves 'em money and keeps 'em from having to wait for reimbursenment.

Sounds like free market to me.

you spend twice as much on healthcare as other western nations and get a poorer outcome so it's definitely not free
(healthcare inflation in the us is now 10% and as a result will bankrupt its corporations)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

half the us healthcare money is currently provided by the government - but the same government cannot bargain to keep prices down. as a result the price of healthcare inflates.

(conservatives shouldn't like inflation but obviously you do)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Ion01 1]

If this were the case that would be call a monopoly in the industry and the government could break it up like they have in the past with numerous companys such as southwestern bell and microsoft....not take it over! Not compete against it! That is not the governments job.......Infact, I would like to see where, in the constitution, does the government have the ability to break up a monopoly!

[chuckakers 370]

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There is no free market in health care.

Actually there is. No one is forced to buy insurance. You can pay for medical care yourself if you prefer.

Pick the doctor you want and go. Hell, a lot of docs give discounts to people paying cash instead of using health care insurance. Saves 'em money and keeps 'em from having to wait for reimbursenment.

Sounds like free market to me.

you spend twice as much on healthcare as other western nations and get a poorer outcome so it's definitely not free
(healthcare inflation in the us is now 10% and as a result will bankrupt its corporations)

Of course healthcare here costs more per capita. Part of the reason is that we absorb the cost of care to illegals and others who can't/won't pay for it themselves.

We also have a legal system that forces doctors to order tons of expensive tests that often aren't necessary for anything other than protection against liability.

Fix the tort and kick the illegals out of the emergency rooms and the math comes out much differently.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[rushmc 18]

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half the us healthcare money is currently provided by the government - but the same government cannot bargain to keep prices down. as a result the price of healthcare inflates.

(conservatives shouldn't like inflation but obviously you do)

Nice twist but you screwed your own argument.

And if you are not from the US why do you give a squirt? Where the hell are you from? Who the hell are you? Why keep that all secret?

Your posts are jokes. I do enjoy them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dreamdancer 0]

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Fix the tort and kick the illegals out of the emergency rooms and the math comes out much differently.

only if you can't do maths

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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And if you are not from the US why do you give a squirt? Where the hell are you from? Who the hell are you? Why keep that all secret?

what's it to you? keep to the topic and don't worry about where others are from

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[mnealtx 0]

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you spend twice as much on healthcare as other western nations

Perhaps

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and get a poorer outcome

WRONG - The US is ranked #1 in level of responsiveness - you know, that criteria that shows how well the healthcare system is doing it's JOB? The rest of WHO's criteria, as well as the overall rankings, are based on bureacratic crap.

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so it's definitely not free
Red herring. Free market != free healthcare.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

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And if you are not from the US why do you give a squirt? Where the hell are you from? Who the hell are you? Why keep that all secret?

what's it to you? keep to the topic and don't worry about where others are from

Afraid to expose yourself huh!

Interesting.............

So brave and full of conviction, when no one knows who you are.

Ethics in the highest regard

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dreamdancer 0]

here's my introduction
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3502268;page=unread#unread

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[rushmc 18]

So, why not complete your profile?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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So, why not complete your profile?

What do his jump numbers and gear selection have to do with Speaker's Corner topics?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pirana 0]

That is so much rubbish. Right from the start to say most people have no choice is total BS. The vast majority of the US population lives in good sized cities. Cities have multiple hospitals; most have too many (read some studies on capacity).

The initial premise that there is a lack of competition is so flawed I did not read much further. Total tripe from someone who does not have a fucking clue.

Got any original thoughts on the topic - or just going to keep posting from propoganda sites?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[mnealtx 0]

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Got any original thoughts on the topic - or just going to keep posting from propoganda sites?

Asked and answered.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706