religious geography

[happythoughts 0]

My personal theory is that religious belief is based on
where you live. The surrounding society.

You have a larger chance of being a Christian if you grow
up in Montana than Pakistan. It's not a matter of thought, just social pressure. You spend 12 years growing
up around people with the same concepts.
(Jesus was Jewish first. )

It has little to do with Ultimate Truth, just geography.

Governments used to like the idea that everyone
was "singing from the same page of the hymn book".
One set of moral principles for everyone and a better
control device for the govt.

When taking over a country, the first thing to do is
redefine, or absorb, the religion of the target.
(Remember those Druid fertility festivals at Springtime with bunnies and eggs?)

[quade 3]

Well, early indoctrination into a religion has a boatload to do with it.

Generally speaking this comes from your parents. If you think about it, it's also why some religions discourage the use of birth control. The long term survivability of the religion requires fresh recruits and if a religion can get them at birth, then that really, REALLY, helps.

Let's face it, if you were not exposed to any religion as a child, grew up to be an adult and somebody started talking about magic fruit trees, talking snakes, burning bushes and giant floating zoos; seriously you'd probably think they were nuts. You'd probably think they were just as nuts as the folks that talk about aliens that come from another planet and cast out souls into volcanos.

I don't think many religious hold up to even the most basic scrutiny when it comes to their "stories".

However, tell those stories to a kid before he learns the difference between reality and fantasy, do it in a big building with a lot of adults telling them as "the truth" and maybe the law of primacy takes over; that which is first learned tends to stick in the mind whether or not it is true.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[vortexring 0]

See, that's the problem with the modern world! People hear all the nonsense in regards to their 'geographical' religion but ...unfortunately for their nations religion police, they can read and hear of other 'geographical' religions through the ease of international media - long live international media! They can then realise better the often despicable nonsense portrayed onto themselves.

Who exactly are the fuckers that wish to curb their societies use of international media?

Further to that - I believe in a supernatural being of some unknown form - yet I never attended any religious crackerjack school.

How very odd....

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[happythoughts 0]

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I don't think many religious hold up to even the most basic scrutiny when it comes to their "stories".

Since we understand how to cause lightning ourselves,
we no long believe that it is the sparks from Thor's anvil.

Simple explanations for complex questions.
However, we are at a point in history where those
explanations sound like bad fiction.

Even 2000 years ago, can you imagine...
"No, really Joseph, it was an angel. Immaculate conception."
"Uh-huh."

Kind of a hard sell even then.

Of course, I'll bet abstinence was easier to make work
when girls got married at 12 and spent the previous year
in the company of male relatives at all times.

[quade 3]

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Further to that - I believe in a supernatural being of some unknown form - yet I never attended any religious crackerjack school.

At any point before say, the age of seven, did you believe in Santa Claus?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[vortexring 0]

Yep, and you're a FOOL to believe otherwise. I guess your poor Mum and Dad had to buy your gifts when you were a kid 'cos ya didn't believe - eh, sunshine? And now you go about believing there's no such thing as Santa Claus. Tut-fuckin'-tut.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[happythoughts 0]

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I believe in a supernatural being of some unknown form - yet I never attended any religious crackerjack school.

Religion is handy for lots of reasons.

- It answers, "why are we here?" Gives us purpose.
- It answers, "what happens when i die?" All beings endeavor to exist.
- It gives control. "If I just follow these rules, the omnipotent being will protect me."
(...with the exception of a Predator finding me when I pick up my cell phone.)

Simple answers to complex questions.
Simple rules to follow. No thinking necessary.
Simple method of controlling life.
Simple protection from bad things.

The attractions to the concept are obvious.

I don't pray to Poseidon to protect me when I swim.
I don't consult my horoscope to plan my day.
I don't think that the medium can read my palm.

Why is it that only Other Peoples religions seem mythical and depressing ?

[vortexring 0]

Dunno - d'you want to send me your cell-phone number?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,259]

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Further to that - I believe in a supernatural being of some unknown form - yet I never attended any religious crackerjack school.

How very odd....

A) Do your parents believe in any kind of deity?

B) Did you attend a state school in the UK? If you did, you were exposed to religious indoctrination several times a week for the entire time you were in the educational system.

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However, tell those stories to a kid before he learns the difference between reality and fantasy, do it in a big building with a lot of adults telling them as "the truth" and maybe the law of primacy takes over; that which is first learned tends to stick in the mind whether or not it is true.

When I was first exposed to adults in big buildings telling me about religion I honestly thought it was just another one of those stories that adults tell you when you're a kid and only pretend to believe themselves - like the stuff in the Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales, or Father Christmas, or the Monster In The Cupboard.

It actually took me a few years of reciting the Lord's Prayer and singing hymns and saying grace at school before I eventually realised that the people making me do it actually did believe in what they were peddling. I found that fact (and kinda still do) almost as unbelievable as the religious stories themselves.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[vortexring 0]

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Further to that - I believe in a supernatural being of some unknown form - yet I never attended any religious crackerjack school.

How very odd....

A) Do your parents believe in any kind of deity?

Fuck off.

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B) Did you attend a state school in the UK? If you did, you were exposed to religious indoctrination several times a week for the entire time you were in the educational system.

Nobody ever took religion seriously in my school - and quite rightly.

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However, tell those stories to a kid before he learns the difference between reality and fantasy, do it in a big building with a lot of adults telling them as "the truth" and maybe the law of primacy takes over; that which is first learned tends to stick in the mind whether or not it is true.

I didn't say that.

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When I was first exposed to adults in big buildings telling me about religion I honestly thought it was just another one of those stories that adults tell you when you're a kid and only pretend to believe themselves - like the stuff in the Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales, or Father Christmas, or the Monster In The Cupboard.

It actually took me a few years of reciting the Lord's Prayer and singing hymns and saying grace at school before I eventually realised that the people making me do it actually did believe in what they were peddling. I found that fact (and kinda still do) almost as unbelievable as the religious stories themselves.

Fair enough - why does it bother you so much though? Are you bitter in the fact you feel you've been wronged mate?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[happythoughts 0]

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Dunno - d'you want to send me your cell-phone number?

The above is pretty much my thoughts on it all.

I quit worrying about it years ago. I've answered all the
questions that religion purports to help with. So I don't need it.

Sometimes, I just tire of seeing the same regurgitation of the same
old arguments between the religious camps.

Merely more of their previous intransigent positions.

[vortexring 0]

Fair enough mate - I see the Pope as being equal to the Devil, I'd be delighted to take on the world's religious leaders with chainsaws - and why the fuck not?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rhys 0]

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Well, early indoctrination into a religion has a boatload to do with it.

Generally speaking this comes from your parents. If you think about it, it's also why some religions discourage the use of birth control. The long term survivability of the religion requires fresh recruits and if a religion can get them at birth, then that really, REALLY, helps.

Let's face it, if you were not exposed to any religion as a child, grew up to be an adult and somebody started talking about magic fruit trees, talking snakes, burning bushes and giant floating zoos; seriously you'd probably think they were nuts. You'd probably think they were just as nuts as the folks that talk about aliens that come from another planet and cast out souls into volcanos.

I don't think many religious hold up to even the most basic scrutiny when it comes to their "stories".

However, tell those stories to a kid before he learns the difference between reality and fantasy, do it in a big building with a lot of adults telling them as "the truth" and maybe the law of primacy takes over; that which is first learned tends to stick in the mind whether or not it is true.

Wow, what a great post, I wholeheartedly agree.

I was sent to a prebetarian school (St. Andrews College) for high school, although we did do religous studies, which taught us many differences between the different religons, we had to attend chapel 2 times a week and we sang hymns at assembly as well as a good old 'preachin' from the chaplain. I could not believe some of the 'bullshit artist' stories that were being palmed off as the basis of life at chapel and then going off to physics and biology classes.
It was all quite confusing wondering why these people thought in this way.

As much as the chapel stores had good morals for the most part, and were entertaining, I was too much set in my ways from living in an agnostic family (so actually still open to suggestion) in a alower socioeconomic community to be palmed of these fables as truths or destinies.

I did enjoy the 'very large' pipe organ, but grew to loath bagpipes .

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[RonD1120 58]

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Well, early indoctrination into a religion has a boatload to do with it.

Generally speaking this comes from your parents. If you think about it, it's also why some religions discourage the use of birth control. The long term survivability of the religion requires fresh recruits and if a religion can get them at birth, then that really, REALLY, helps.

Let's face it, if you were not exposed to any religion as a child, grew up to be an adult and somebody started talking about magic fruit trees, talking snakes, burning bushes and giant floating zoos; seriously you'd probably think they were nuts. You'd probably think they were just as nuts as the folks that talk about aliens that come from another planet and cast out souls into volcanos.

I don't think many religious hold up to even the most basic scrutiny when it comes to their "stories".

However, tell those stories to a kid before he learns the difference between reality and fantasy, do it in a big building with a lot of adults telling them as "the truth" and maybe the law of primacy takes over; that which is first learned tends to stick in the mind whether or not it is true.

I think your post is right on. In my situation nothing made concrete sense until I experienced being "born again" on 16 Mar 81. I had been on a spiritual quest since 1972 when the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, "Why don't you try Jesus, you've tried everything else?" I was alone at Mono Lake in the Sierra Nevada Mountains at the time. It was right after sunset. He gave me a mental picture of being inside a C-47, looking out the door.

Many times I had gone through a fuselage door into the unknown. He challenged me to go through the door of salvation by surrendering to Jesus Christ.

It has often been said that going to church won't make you a Christian anymore than sleeping in a garage will make you a car.

Establishing a relationship with God comes from the heart not from rote memorization of religious concepts. At least, that was how it was for me.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

Further to both Quade's and your post, by the time you had the personal experience in 1972 you describe, you were already an adult. Now, since I don't know you, I don't know whether you had any religious or spiritual beliefs prior to that, nor do I know anything about how you were raised as a kid. Nonetheless - despite however you might have been raised, or what you did/didn't believe prior to 1972 - you still were raised in a society in which religion was woven into its culture, and in which most adults professed to religious beliefs. That certainly had some acculturizing or conditioning effect upon you, as it does with everyone.

Even a hypothetical atheist raised in an atheist household is exposed to that in our society, unless he's spent his whole life in a cave; and so by the time he's an adult, religion is not alien to him. My point being, by 1972, you were not a "blank slate", to whom religious belief was a totally alien and unknown concept, like the hypothetical person in Quade's example; you were you, a product of your environment, and that made you, at the very least, open to the concept of religious beliefs.

[RonD1120 58]

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Further to both Quade's and your post, by the time you had the personal experience in 1972 you describe, you were already an adult. Now, since I don't know you, I don't know whether you had any religious or spiritual beliefs prior to that, nor do I know anything about how you were raised as a kid. Nonetheless - despite however you might have been raised, or what you did/didn't believe prior to 1972 - you still were raised in a society in which religion was woven into its culture, and in which most adults professed to religious beliefs. That certainly had some acculturizing or conditioning effect upon you, as it does with everyone.

Even a hypothetical atheist raised in an atheist household is exposed to that in our society, unless he's spent his whole life in a cave; and so by the time he's an adult, religion is not alien to him. My point being, by 1972, you were not a "blank slate", to whom religious belief was a totally alien and unknown concept, like the hypothetical person in Quade's example; you were you, a product of your environment, and that made you, at the very least, open to the concept of religious beliefs.

Minor correction to your post, my born again experience occurred in 1981 not 1972. I agree with what you state. Bottom line, I have experienced the supernatural epiphany of entering into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And, that is a very good thing. I truly believe that experience is available to others, as a very good thing.

Those not interested have their choices.

The amusing thing to me is that the naysayers don't seem to have to ability to ignore Christian testimony. There's something about the name of Jesus. If the whole concept is foolishness why bother to refute it?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Minor correction to your post, my born again experience occurred in 1981 not 1972.

Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted the syntax of the sentence.

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The amusing thing to me is that the naysayers don't seem to have to ability to ignore Christian testimony. There's something about the name of Jesus.

I think you over-attribute that dynamic to a Christian context in particular. That dynamic exists in any society, with any religion. But the majority religion in the US is Christianity, so it's in that religion's context that it happens the most, so that's where you see it the most. I imagine if you lived in Turkey, or Japan, or India, or Israel, you'd still see it, but far less often in a context of Christianity in particular.

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If the whole concept is foolishness why bother to refute it?

Some do simply as an intellectual exercise. Some do it because they see it as more harmful to society than helpful, on balance, so they want to try to counteract its traction. Lots of reasons. A lot of people really don't care about discussing it at all. Those people tend to populate the Bonfire.

[maadmax 0]

There is one big difference between religion and a personal spiritual relationship with God that is being ignored or is just incomprehensible to a lot of you. Personally, I agree with about everything I have heard said here about religions. They are man made, have helped some people in need, but have also caused a lot of harm. Spiritually engaging in a personal relationship with God is a totally different experience, and has more to do with the awakened awareness within your soul than your culture.

[JackC 0]

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There is one big difference between religion and a personal spiritual relationship with God

A personal relationship with god is the new religion.

[Andy9o8 0]

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There is one big difference between religion and a personal spiritual relationship with God that is being ignored or is just incomprehensible to a lot of you. Personally, I agree with about everything I have heard said here about religions. They are man made, have helped some people in need, but have also caused a lot of harm. Spiritually engaging in a personal relationship with God is a totally different experience, and has more to do with the awakened awareness within your soul than your culture.

I think they are one and the same. What you describe as "a personal spiritual relationship with God" and "the awakened awareness within your soul", I describe as "a conscious thought process within - and created by - a sentient mind" - nothing more, nothing less. You think the difference you're describing is incomprehensible to me. But it's not; I do understand the concept, albeit as an abstraction. I simply don't believe in its existence in actual fact.

[jakee 1,259]

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Nobody ever took religion seriously in my school - and quite rightly.

The point is only that it's not as if you were never exposed to ideas of god when you were growing up, either at home or at school, even if you didn't go to a 'religious crackerjack' school.

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Fair enough - why does it bother you so much though?

I'm not the one telling people to fuck off for asking a simple question.

Why does it bother you so much to have people question anything you say or do? Is it because of a crippling inferiority complex?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[vortexring 0]

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Nobody ever took religion seriously in my school - and quite rightly.

The point is only that it's not as if you were never exposed to ideas of god when you were growing up, either at home or at school, even if you didn't go to a 'religious crackerjack' school.

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Fair enough - why does it bother you so much though?

I'm not the one telling people to fuck off for asking a simple question.

Why does it bother you so much to have people question anything you say or do? Is it because of a crippling inferiority complex?

Nah, it's because I was pissed when I wrote all that bollox. A poor excuse, I know. Sorry for being rude and obnoxious.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[RonD1120 58]

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There is one big difference between religion and a personal spiritual relationship with God that is being ignored or is just incomprehensible to a lot of you. Personally, I agree with about everything I have heard said here about religions. They are man made, have helped some people in need, but have also caused a lot of harm. Spiritually engaging in a personal relationship with God is a totally different experience, and has more to do with the awakened awareness within your soul than your culture.

I think they are one and the same. What you describe as "a personal spiritual relationship with God" and "the awakened awareness within your soul", I describe as "a conscious thought process within - and created by - a sentient mind" - nothing more, nothing less. You think the difference you're describing is incomprehensible to me. But it's not; I do understand the concept, albeit as an abstraction. I simply don't believe in its existence in actual fact.

I have to admit, I'm starting to feel like I'm on a psychedelic merry-go-round. The terms "sentient mind or sentient being" are used frequently in your posts. I felt like I had some familiarity with the concept but it was not used in the counseling facilities where I have been employed. So I Googled it and it led me primarily to Alan Watts. OK, I know a little about Watts, no problem.

The difficulty I have in understanding your position is that you separated sentient being/mind from mystical experience and Watts refers to the term as mystical within the Buddhist philosophy. If fact it appears that he believes it unique to Buddhism.

Sentient beings with sentient minds have spiritual epiphanies. Your posts appear to have an inherent contridiction of thought. Please clarify your position.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

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The difficulty I have in understanding your position is that you separated sentient being/mind from mystical experience and Watts refers to the term as mystical within the Buddhist philosophy. If fact it appears that he believes it unique to Buddhism.

Sentient beings with sentient minds have spiritual epiphanies. Your posts appear to have an inherent contridiction of thought. Please clarify your position.

There's no inconsistency or contradiction at all.

First - I'm not using "sentience" in the Eastern philosophical sense; I'm using it in a scientific sense. Perhaps I should use the word "sapient", rather than "sentient", but I'm using the term in a shorthand sense to (putting it simplified form) refer to the type of higher, conscious, awareness of self and others in physical, measurable time and space, as well as the ability to think in the abstract and in the hypothetical, which exists in humans but (as far as I know) does not exist in lower animals.

With that in mind, what people who have religious beliefs may refer to as, for example, mystical experience, or spiritual epiphany, or a knowledge of God, etc. (big "etc."), I consider to be abstractions (or hypotheticals, etc.) that are created solely within their own minds, but that do not exist in actual fact, despite the fact that such people fully believe them to be fact. In other words, when a person believes he has had a spiritual ephiphany, I consider that to actually be nothing more than a thought (perhaps together with an emotional process) conjured up in his mind, just as much as when a child believes that there are monsters under his bed in the dark, I consider that to actually be nothing more than a thought conjured up in his mind.

You at various times talk about people "refusing" to know or accept God. I consider that to be absolutely no different than, for example, a child feeling sorry for me because I "refuse" to accept the existence of the monsters that he believes exist under his bed in the dark.

That same child who believed in monsters under his bed, or Santa Claus, etc., will eventually stop believing in them as an adult. That is a natural effect of a person's development from a child into an adult, in which he learns to differentiate between fantasy and reality. But it's also because the adults in his society do not indoctrinate him, through his adolescence, that they as adults believe in Santa Claus, and that therefore he as an adult must do so, too.

BUT - if that same child lived in a family, and associated with others, especially adults, that believed in a religion in which a core, axiomatic premise was the existence of Santa Claus or monsters under beds in the dark - that is to say, if he were sufficiently indoctrinated by people and his environment - he would stand a good chance of believing that as an adult, and helping, in turn, to pass that belief on to others.

He might even turn to those same religious beliefs later in adulthood to give him the mental and emotional peace, discipline and self-confidence to overcome a dysfunctional lifestyle and become a very productive, constructive person, who might even assist others in doing the same. And I would very sincerely congratulate him in that. But the fact that a key device he used to accomplish that was his religious belief in monsters under beds in the dark does not in any way establish that those monsters do, in fact, exist.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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First - I'm not using "sentience" in the Eastern philosophical sense; I'm using it in a scientific sense. Perhaps I should use the word "sapient", rather than "sentient", but I'm using the term in a shorthand sense to (putting it simplified form) refer to the type of higher, conscious, awareness of self and others in physical, measurable time and space, as well as the ability to think in the abstract and in the hypothetical, which exists in humans but (as far as I know) does not exist in lower animals.

So this higher consiousness does exist, but if the person frames it within a religious context, it then ceases to exist?

Speed Racer
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