kbordson 8 #51 July 19, 2009 QuoteYou're going to get it anyway, so stop whining. Nice respect for others opinions. Seems more like an arrogant bully saying "YOU HAD BETTER GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, AND GET USED TO IT." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #52 July 19, 2009 QuoteI grew up in a country with free and accessible health care (Great Britain). If you got ill, you went to see a doctor and there was no charge. Pulling out one's own teeth is also free and accessible. How is Britain's NHS dentist shortage going, by the way?Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #53 July 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou're going to get it anyway, so stop whining. Nice respect for others opinions. Seems more like an arrogant bully saying "YOU HAD BETTER GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, AND GET USED TO IT." But Karen, people are already giving their money to 'For Profits' Insurance companies... why should anyone make money from your health problems? Insurance companies aren't doing anything for your benifit, they're leaching from y'all. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #54 July 19, 2009 QuoteBut Karen, people are already giving their money to 'For Profits' Insurance companies... why should anyone make money from your health problems? Insurance companies aren't doing anything for your benifit, they're leaching from y'all. Same reason they should make money for your food problems or shelter problems. As if the government's motives are any more altruistic.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #55 July 19, 2009 I see that (sort of) but rather that my country made the money than some faceless/careless multinational corporation. Insurance companies make a shit load of money from 'us' which could be better spent (if done correctly) on our healthcare.... The freemarket does not have a valid place in healthcare in my opinion... Some twats sitting in an ivory towers and driving porches whilst people are paying for medicine is wrong... wrong WRONG. Our system (and the Canadian & Australian et al.) has it's faults and could be better run but is the right way for us. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #56 July 19, 2009 Quotemy country made the money You'll have to explain to me how that works. QuoteThe freemarket does not have a valid place in healthcare in my opinion... Do the doctors work for free? If not, why not? QuoteOur system (and the Canadian & Australian et al.) has it's faults and could be better run but is the right way for us. Indeed. Maybe a little dose of healthy competition would do it some good.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #57 July 19, 2009 Of course Drs don't work for free that's NOT the same as corporate profit, it's the cost of labour. No one works for free under soical medicine either. QuoteIndeed. Maybe a little dose of healthy competition would do it some good. You could be right there ... but not corporate greed, is all I'm saying. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #58 July 19, 2009 Quote Of course Drs don't work for free that's NOT the same as corporate profit, it's the cost of labour. No one works for free under soical medicine either. Quote Indeed. Maybe a little dose of healthy competition would do it some good. You could be right there ... but not corporate greed, is all I'm saying. I agree, Shropy, (EDIT TO ADD: can I call you Shropy? In a nice, non condescending way, of course BUT (and this is a BIG BUT) I do NOT trust the government to get it right either. I personally work WITHIN a government run health care network - Medicaid (federal program for the destitute). I LOVE the people (well.... most.... well.... many of them - except the ones that call at 4am to say "my joints are sore" and the ones that want "guarantees" that everything is "perfect" while talking to me over the phone) But the SYSTEM is truly and honestly driving me away. I'm SERIOUS about that. In ANY field (medicine, engineering, sport skydiving), you only work in that field as long as the positive gain out weighs the negative frustration. When you get to the tipping point where your own personal health is compromised because of the stress of the system, you get out. And Medicaid is pushing me there.... after only three years as a practicing physician (and 4yrs as a resident).... I believe that the system - run by the American government - is WORSE than the corporate companies. And I DO NOT TRUST the current regime (or even the past one) to make it better. At least not better for me. Am I being selfish? Yes. But EVERYONE is. And ensuring that YOU look out for YOUR personal health and welfare is what this whole topic is all about. I believe, like lawrocket, that I am responsible for my future and my health - if I get pregnant, I should have considered how to care for my future child; if I skydive and break my ankle, I should have arrangements to care for my mistakes; if I get cancer, I should have some PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY - Yes... even for cancer, I should have some level of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Lung cancer - my dad had it, he smoked... puffed those cigars like a chimmney. My sister smokes, if she gets cancer (God forbid) - she has some level of blame. Cervical cancer - seen a few, TYPICALLY caused by an STI. Many of those women had high risk histories. I'm not saying that cancer is YOUR FAULT entirely.... cells mutate. period. That's what they do - BUT... our actions influence them and AS ADULTS, we should accept some level of responsibility for our health and welfare. Now... back to MY level of greed. I don't make a lot of money (for an OB/Gyn physician... and yes, I am qualifying that because I know that even what I do make is a nice amount so I'm not complaining overall about that) But I'm not doing this job for the money. I don't have to. My greed revolves around the level of patient care that I can give. I LIKE spending more than 4-7min per patient, I LIKE TEACHING about pregnancy, about womens health, about "what's wrong?" When I'm double and triple booked because I'm told that I'm not meeting over head due to the fact that Medicaid only gives a fraction of the billing.... I'm not greedy for the money.... I'm greedy for the TIME that the government has now taken away. Compound that with the restrictions and limitations on patient care.... Shropy.... If I knew how to make it better, I would. But I'm not smart enough and I don't trust the government to be smart enough either Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #59 July 19, 2009 Quote I see that (sort of) but rather that my country made the money than some faceless/careless multinational corporation. Insurance companies make a shit load of money from 'us' which could be better spent (if done correctly) on our healthcare.... The freemarket does not have a valid place in healthcare in my opinion... Some twats sitting in an ivory towers and driving porches whilst people are paying for medicine is wrong... wrong WRONG. Our system (and the Canadian & Australian et al.) has it's faults and could be better run but is the right way for us. Insurance companies aren't wallowing in cash. I site America's AIG, and UK's Lloyds as examples of two dynasties that are teetering on the edge...even with taxpayer/government assistance/ownership. As for the marketplace, since there is no market for it then, doctors and scientists can effectively stop research on all future drugs. What are you going to do? Force them to do it? Pharmaceuticals take extraordinary risk to develop drugs. It costs them billions, and if they don't recoup that, with profit, they cannot continue to operate and develop new products. Show me a model other than that, which is viable. Most doctors also take considerable risk. With all the administrative pre-cautions they must take (malpractice, staff for paperwork, cost of specialized materials), they too must recoup these expenses. As for the social medicine programs that work for you, great. They are wrong for the US. All those "cheap" drugs that your government has negotiated are at the US economy's expense. Regulate the US role, and your discount disappears. So do a lot of talented companies.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #60 July 19, 2009 I agree with the personal responability bit .. I take out extra insurance because of the sports that I take part in. I also pay for my Health cover through taxation (It's not actually free in the U,K, simply Free at the point of delivery). I don't trust the government neither but I trust shimey suited corporate entities even less... especially multinationals, who have even less interest in the local populationI didn't write about Drs greed . but corporate instance companies. I don't like the idea of them make a VERY large profit which is essentially based upon other peoples missery. I'm also no where near bright enough to know the answers but I 'feel' things are going to get worse. It's 'kin of' funny when you compare our 2 countries... one is trying to be forced to become more 'socialist' (small s) and the other is selling out to big multinationals at every opportunity..... sad either way around. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #61 July 19, 2009 Quote I don't trust the government neither but I trust shimey suited corporate entities even less... especially multinationals, who have even less interest in the local population I'm the opposite. I trust corporations more than gov't as with them you know what they are after - $$$. Plus corporations tend to care more about bad PR and can be sued easier for wrongdoings.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #62 July 19, 2009 QuoteDo you think the current system is fine the way it is? Nope. QuoteIf not what would you change in it? For starters, I'd look at the largest player, the one that sets all the reimbursement rates, and then forces everyone else to follow them. Then I'd ask if I really want to make that player even larger and more powerful. As I said before, it'd be very simple to just allow anyone in America with an income under some amount (say 20k for individuals and 50k for families) to join the federal employees plan, and get the same healthcare members of congress get. If the government paid their premiums, it would still be cheaper than any of the alternatives currently being considered. QuoteWhat should people who truly can't afford health care do? See my suggestion above. It's much faster than any of the alternatives (it could conceivably go live in a month). It's cheaper than any other alternative. And it gives much higher quality of care, according to the current enrollees, than any other government health program. Quoteand lets please leave the minority of people who are lazy fucks who leech from every thing. Remember that only about 15% of the people who are currently uninsured honestly cannot afford healthcare. The other 85% have simply chosen to do something else (like skydiving, for example) with their money. Or, in your words, they're "lazy fucks."-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #63 July 19, 2009 Quote All I am saying is that every one should have health insurance. Excellent! Now, put your money where your mouth is, and buy health insurance for someone who doesn't have it. Or maybe what you really want is that "every one should have health insurance paid by someone else (rich), not me"? Edit: now I got it: Quote I know how important insurance is but I can not afford to have it any longer. So now it looks like that what you really want is that someone else pays for YOUR healthcare, because you allegedly cannot afford it. Did you consider cutting Internet, cell phone and cable? Would easy add $100-300 to your health insurance fund, and you obviously understand that those things are less important than healthcare.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #64 July 19, 2009 Quote Or maybe what you really want is that "every one should have health insurance paid by someone else (rich), not me"? Or maybe he's willing to pay a bit more in taxes to get gov't health insurance for all vs. people having to buy it individually. He might be thinking the cost in the tax increase would be less for him too. You/we may disagree with his opinion, but no where did he state he was unwilling to pay his share.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #65 July 19, 2009 Quote Or maybe he's willing to pay a bit more in taxes to get gov't health insurance for all vs. people having to buy it individually. No, the numbers do not match. If one claims not having enough money to pay for their own healthcare, this means "a bit more of taxes" should be less than cost of even his own healthcare, not even mentioning paying for someone else. So at the end it's the same - "I want someone else to pay for my healthcare". Quote He might be thinking the cost in the tax increase would be less for him too. Sure. I bet everyone would like if someone else would pay a fair 95% share for their healthcare. Quote You/we may disagree with his opinion, but no where did he state he was unwilling to pay his share. Well, it is very easy to agree to pay "your fair share" with understanding that your share will not cover even your needs, as it doesn't now. Someone on welfare would have no problem with 100% income tax either.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #66 July 19, 2009 QuoteSure. I bet everyone would like if someone else would pay a fair 95% share for their healthcare. Understanding that around 40% of registered voters pay no federal income tax, it's easy to see why they'd be in favor of increased taxes to pay for their healthcare. If you pay no taxes, it costs you nothing to increase the taxes on everyone else, hence your return on investment is infinite--you get something for nothing.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #67 July 20, 2009 QuoteInsurance companies aren't doing anything for your benifit, they're leaching from y'all. Truer words have never been spoken.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #68 July 20, 2009 QuoteInsurance companies aren't doing anything for your benifit, they're leaching from y'all. And the solution is to create a new, gigantic insurance company with a trillion dollar government subsidy?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #69 July 20, 2009 Quote Quote Insurance companies aren't doing anything for your benifit, they're leaching from y'all. And the solution is to create a new, gigantic insurance company with a trillion dollar government subsidy? With no competition... Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,470 #70 July 20, 2009 >What gives you the RIGHT to DEMAND the labor of another person? A little-known document, prefaced by: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America." It's out of fashion, I know, but some of us are enamored of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #71 July 20, 2009 Quote>What gives you the RIGHT to DEMAND the labor of another person? A little-known document, prefaced by: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America." It's out of fashion, I know, but some of us are enamored of it. You do realize those are two different words right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #72 July 20, 2009 QuoteQuote>What gives you the RIGHT to DEMAND the labor of another person? A little-known document, prefaced by: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America." It's out of fashion, I know, but some of us are enamored of it. You do realize those are two different words right? Yep. Promote has a broader definition, an can encompass provide.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #73 July 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote>What gives you the RIGHT to DEMAND the labor of another person? A little-known document, prefaced by: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America." It's out of fashion, I know, but some of us are enamored of it. You do realize those are two different words right? Yep. Promote has a broader definition, an can encompass provide. I disagree with that statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #74 July 20, 2009 QuoteYep. Promote has a broader definition, an can encompass provide. I disagree with that statement. It's a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion. Disagree all you want, but it won't change the fact.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #75 July 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteYep. Promote has a broader definition, an can encompass provide. I disagree with that statement. It's a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion. Disagree all you want, but it won't change the fact. It's a LONG stretch to argue that promote the general welfare means that the founding fathers wanted free health care for everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
It's a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion. Disagree all you want, but it won't change the fact.
It's a LONG stretch to argue that promote the general welfare means that the founding fathers wanted free health care for everyone.