SBR and trusts

[AggieDave 6]

Has anyone gone through the process of the paperwork for a SBR and setting it up in a trust? I understand the legal side of *why* you should use a trust, but I'm a little grey on the process for the trust and how that applies to the ATF's SBR paperwork. Same questions but for a can on the same lower and maybe on a separate lower. The can would simply be a toy, something to enjoy occasionally.

I could trudge through AR-15.com or similar, but a lot of those guys/gals tend to annoy the hell out of me! Its like DZ.com but with less experienced jumpers giving advice!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[warpedskydiver 0]

The BATFE website has a complete list of all the rules, anything else is conjecture.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Plus if you ask them a question they will give you the answer.

[AggieDave 6]

Ok. Let me redefine the OP.

I've heard at least 12 different ways to setup a trust for this sort of thing. Some are exceptionally complicated, some are exceptionally simple. Surely there is something in the middle that actually works. For those of you who have completed this, what is recommended?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[warpedskydiver 0]

Sorry I can design them and market them with the proper paperwork, but here I cannot own one.

So I have not done this.

If you are corporation you can own one (think S Corp)

[AggieDave 6]

I am able to have a SBR with the payment of the tax and the clearing of the paperwork (no problem). People assign the SBRs to trusts in the paperwork for protection of their assets for death and legal proceedings (and the such). The rumor of the protection when using a trust is what has me interested in going this route. Hence asking if anyone has done this.

Its pretty specific for a skydiving website, but there are some shooters on here that have probably done this. I'm also guessing I'll receive a couple of PMs instead of straight public responses (even though this is 100% legal).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[LouDiamond 1]

Dave,
take this as a very generalized synopsis as I am pulling from memory when I was researching this and culling the threads on AR-15.com and other sites.

There are pluses and minuses to the 2 basic ways you can do this, it depends on what works best for you and your situation.


Method 1, establish a trust. This can be done/started using the software program called Willmaker( I believe thats the name) to generate all the necessary paperwork, etc. One of the drawbacks of doing this is that you have to name, by person, who has access to the weapon. As an example. If you only add yourself and you die, legally no one can fire the weapon and they would have to go through the hassle of doing all the paperwork to retain the weapon. Also, legally, only those who are named in the trust can fire the weapon. The benefit of doing this over method 2 is that you don't have to pay the cost every year associated with method 2 and the possible taxes( varies by state I believe). This method is preferred by most who don't want to wade through the BATF paperwork and getting the local head law dog to sign off on said paperwork.


Method 2, establish an LLC or other business. This method is beneficial in that you don't have to do the fingerprinting as a company doesn't have fingerprints, hence precluding the head lawdog signature. You also don't have a limitation like you do in a trust where only those named can operate the weapon. The downside of this method is that if you don't actually have a business that does something, you have to pay every year to renew your LLC,etc and the associated state taxes just to operate as an LLC,etc. Which means you continue to pay every year to have your toys. However, if you already do have a business, you are already paying those fees so it's no skin off your nose. The paperwork is really minimal and usually passes through the system first try. I do believe you still have to pay the tax on the Stamp for your SBR/SBS, etc.


Thats the cliff note version and I'm sure I failed to list additional pros/cons of each but that should get you started on which you should pursue.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[TomAiello 25]

It'll cost a couple bucks, but the best way to be sure you're legal is to consult a lawyer, licensed in your state, who is familiar with the process.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Ron 7]

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You also don't have a limitation like you do in a trust where only those named can operate the weapon

You can add a person to your trust as an officer and they can use the weapon as well. You already mentioned this sorta... But it is not that big of a deal to add another person.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quicken willmaker will allow you to set up a living trust for a few bucks. I know plenty that have gone this route.

A better choice is to use a lawyer, IMO.

www.HoustonAttorney.org

He comes highly recommended and will prevent some of the hassles you might run into.

For example:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/4/20/batfe-approves-u-invalid-u-trust

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In an extremely disconcerting scenario, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) has approved an application to make an NFA firearm, while acknowledging that the trust was not valid. As posted on Silencertalk.com,

“Well I just got back two approved form 1 SBR’s and on the back of one of my forms it is highlighted and says ‘consult counsel w/ the filing of your trust, proves to be invalid’“

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I understand the legal side of *why* you should use a trust, but I'm a little grey on the process for the trust and how that applies to the ATF's SBR paperwork.

The only reason to use a trust IMO is:
1. Avoid the LEO signature (should not be a problem for you, was never a problem for me).

2. You can put others on your trust and they can borrow the weapon without you. I could put my fiance on the trust and she would be allowed the combination to the safe where I store them.

My next NFA purchase will be on a trust, but my three current ones are not.

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Same questions but for a can on the same lower and maybe on a separate lower.

A silencer is its own entity. You can have one and put it on as many weapons as you want.

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I could trudge through AR-15.com or similar, but a lot of those guys/gals tend to annoy the hell out of me! Its like DZ.com but with less experienced jumpers giving advice!

Oh so it is EXACTLY like DZ.com!

PM me if you want more details or have questions.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Plus if you ask them a question they will give you the answer.

And that answer may not be correct! RPB has a letter from ATF stating that the M10 semi-auto Open Bolt pistol they designed in 1977 is a Title I firearm. Problem is, they also have a letter dated 5 years later, stating that the exact same firearm is a Title II firearm.

Also a guy asked the ATF if he had to engrave his data on SBR'ing an HK.... He got a verbal and a letter saying *nope* Feb 21, 2006. He then got another letter Feb 26, 2006 saying they were wrong.

I have attached both letters

They have also approved invalid trusts... Making the owner a felon.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[warpedskydiver 0]

I was told by two Feds and an ATFE agent that there is no requirement to mark an already roll stamped or engraved firearms that is being made into a title I.

The fact that the letter suggested it was required is stupid and renders that title I weapon non-transferable.

SBR, SBS and Suppressors may be sold if the new owner complies by obtaining a Form 1.

Even other items such as Machine Guns and DD may be transferred if the proper paperwork is received.

[Ron 7]

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I was told by two Feds and an ATFE agent that there is no requirement to mark an already roll stamped or engraved firearms that is being made into a title I.

And that is what the first letter said. The second said that the first letter (and the first BATFE guy) was wrong... Did you even bother to read the letters and check the dates?

Plus, you said, "Plus if you ask them a question they will give you the answer."

They gave an answer to the SBR question and I provided a copy of that letter... Yet you do not agree with it. So is the Chief of the NFA branch of the BATFE right, or you?

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The fact that the letter suggested it was required is stupid and renders that title I weapon non-transferable.

Wrong, It is still 100% transferable on a Form 4.

Better not tell this guy:

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46537

WTS:$2195 Bobcat Weapons BW5 (HK94 clone) Short Barrel Rifle. Three lug barrel, A2 fixed stock, SEF plastic trigger housing. I manufactured the SBR so it has my name/info professionally engraved by Tom Sawyer when he was still in business. I know Bobcat has a crappy reputation but this rifle runs 100% with WWB/cheapo ammo and I'll back it with a 100% money back guarantee if not exactly as described. Buyer pays actual shipping, full payment required to start transfer on a Form 4.

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SBR, SBS and Suppressors may be sold if the new owner complies by obtaining a Form 1.

Wrong, Form 4 is all the new owner needs to fill out (technically a 5320.4).

Form 1 is for making. (5320.1)
Form 2 is for making or importing for dealers. (5320.2)
Form 3 is for transfer between dealers.
Form 4 is for transfer to individuals.
Form 9 (I think) is for export
Form 10 is for LEA's.
5320.20 is for transfer across state lines.

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Even other items such as Machine Guns and DD may be transferred if the proper paperwork is received.

MG's may only be transferred between dealers (SOT's) or LEA's unless they are registered and made prior to 1986.

Civilians may only own a MG is if was made prior to 1986 AND it is currently one of the 250k that are supposed to be registered.

It is pretty clear you have zero knowledge of NFA laws.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[warpedskydiver 0]

In the case you provide he IS the MANUFACTURER.

Other than that if it was modified from an existing Title II it has no need for additional markings.

Of course some agents will have different opinions but unless they can provide chapter and verse of the rules it is just a personal opinion.

Yes I was mistaken in typing form 1, instead of form 4.

The 1986 cut off for making a machine gun is common knowledge, so why make the effort to act like I am some kind of dumbshit.

Here is a hint, I have probably dealt with more firearms related items than you might imagine.

[AggieDave 6]

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Civilians may only own a MG is if was made prior to 1986 AND it is currently one of the 250k that are supposed to be registered.

Which is really too bad. Although I have had the pleasure of getting to play with some pre-1986 stuff, the cost of ownership is so very high that its not even a dream of the hope of a possibility at this point in my life.

Thank you both for all the information.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

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Civilians may only own a MG is if was made prior to 1986 AND it is currently one of the 250k that are supposed to be registered.

Which is really too bad. Although I have had the pleasure of getting to play with some pre-1986 stuff, the cost of ownership is so very high that its not even a dream of the hope of a possibility at this point in my life.

Thank you both for all the information.

Get together 5 friends and charter a trust. Then you each throw in the cost of an EBR, and buy an AC 556. Do it again and get a MAC-10. I bet you could find some folks who were interested enough to actually do it.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Ron 7]

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In the case you provide he IS the MANUFACTURER.

As is anyone that makes an SBR. If you start from scratch, you are manufacturing a weapon... If you take an existing Title I and make it a Title II, you have MANUFACTURED a Title II weapon.

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Other than that if it was modified from an existing Title II it has no need for additional markings.

You would not need to do anything to an existing Title II weapon. MG's do not fall under the rules for barrel length, if it is already a Title II SBR then there is no issue. A rifle is not ever going to be a Destructive device nor an SBS, and it is not going to become a suppressor either.

You need to re-read the letter from the Chief of the NFA branch of the ATF that I posted. He spells it out quite clearly that you are 100% wrong. You need to read up on § 479.102

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(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and

Pretty much spells it out in plain English that you are wrong.

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Of course some agents will have different opinions but unless they can provide chapter and verse of the rules it is just a personal opinion.

How about a letter from Kenneth Houchens, Chief, National Firearms Act Branch? You know, the one I included that said you have to put the makers information on the weapon? Of course, you still think your "two Feds and an ATFE agent" trumps the Chief of National Firearms Act Branch.... But I'd go a different route.

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but unless they can provide chapter and verse of the rules it is just a personal opinion.

§ 479.102... Is the chapter and verse you don't know.

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Yes I was mistaken in typing form 1, instead of form 4.

Maybe, but that is not the only wrong information you have given out in this thread. Wanna recap?

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The fact that the letter suggested it was required is stupid and renders that title I weapon non-transferable.

Total and utter complete BullShit, and I proved it.

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SBR, SBS and Suppressors may be sold if the new owner complies by obtaining a Form 1.

Maybe you did mistakenly type a 1 instead of a 4... But who knows, the rest of your information was also inaccurate.

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The 1986 cut off for making a machine gun is common knowledge, so why make the effort to act like I am some kind of dumbshit.

The same reason you felt like adding, "Even other items such as Machine Guns and DD may be transferred if the proper paperwork is received." I suppose.

And I bet someone reading this DID learn something new.

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Here is a hint, I have probably dealt with more firearms related items than you might imagine .

Here is a hint, the totally wrong information in your posts says otherwise... At least when it comes to Title II items anyway.

Those that know what I look like will clearly see me in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vopYDdRSDoA

And I have attached a little something that shows I know a bit about Class III items as well.

Still waiting for you to back up your claims with something other than your, "two Feds and an ATFE agent".... Cause in my world, the actual law and a signed letter from the Chief of the NFA Branch trumps your "two Feds and an ATFE agent".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[warpedskydiver 0]

Well you did not drop it.


That's good.

[JohnRich 4]

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Attachments: trophy-1.jpg (69.3 KB)

How could you have a trophy marked "Winter 2009", when we are only now in the summer of 2009?

What kind of stripper clip holds 9 rounds? I've seen 'em with 5, 8 or 10, but not 9.

[AggieDave 6]

See John, in N. Texas winter lasts from about October to March. I know that around H-town you're in shorts and shooting accuracy approaches by February, but winter has come once in 2009 and will come again shortly (I hope...its HOT).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

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See John, in N. Texas winter lasts from about October to March. I know that around H-town you're in shorts and shooting accuracy approaches by February, but winter has come once in 2009 and will come again shortly (I hope...its HOT).

I wonder what they call a match held near the end of the year?

[AggieDave 6]

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I wonder what they call a match held near the end of the year?

The 2009 Winter Holidays Match?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Brains 2]

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Get together 5 friends and charter a trust. Then you each throw in the cost of an EBR, and buy an AC 556. Do it again and get a MAC-10. I bet you could find some folks who were interested enough to actually do it.

**Raises Hand**

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Ron 7]

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How could you have a trophy marked "Winter 2009", when we are only now in the summer of 2009?

They handed it to me.

Or you could go with that the comp was in January and:

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Winter is one of the four seasons of temperate zones. In many countries, winter officially begins on the day of the year which has fewest hours of daylight, the winter solstice, and ends on the following equinox. In the Northern Hemisphere, depending on the year, this corresponds to the period between December 20 and 21 and March 20 or 21.

January *is* winter, and January starts the new calendar year. Thus, January 2009 would be Winter 2009, as would Dec 2009 if held after the 20th.

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What kind of stripper clip holds 9 rounds? I've seen 'em with 5, 8 or 10, but not 9.

The kind that are drawings on a trophy?

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I wonder what they call a match held near the end of the year?

Well you might want to ask the organizers.... I just shoot... And win.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334