jcd11235 0 #76 May 26, 2009 QuoteI'm not 'defending' anyone, I'm AGAIN saying...why don't we wait for the whole story instead of blubbering 'oh my gosh' like a bunch of old women in a sewing circle. This isn't like the Rodney King video. The video we saw shows the police chase through the assault by the cop. It didn't simply take a few seconds of video out of context. QuoteNot trying to be a macho hard ass here, but should you and I meet sometime, I'll lay down like that and you walk behind me and try to simulate putting cuffs on...you be the cop, I'll be the 'noncompliant'. You will not get me cuffed by yourself, probably not with another persons help. <rolls eyes> Sure, uh huh. If you think so. QuoteDo I fault the cop for insuring his own personal safety by making sure he was down? Nope! His personal safety was not at risk, a fact all of the apologists seem to ignore.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #77 May 26, 2009 QuoteHis personal safety was not at risk, a fact all of the apologists seem to ignore. And your qualifications to detemine that are? I'm one of those you refer to as an apologist-dead wrong, skippy. There was nothing to apologize for.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #78 May 26, 2009 QuoteI'm one of those you refer to as an apologist …. There was nothing to apologize for. Except kicking the suspect in the head unnecessarily when there was no immediate threat.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #79 May 26, 2009 QuoteExcept kicking the suspect in the head unnecessarily when there was no some untrained observer sitting safely on his ass watching a video on the computer couldn't see an immediate threat. and even it there was no immediate thread; the officer did a damn fine job of heading off any pending threats that might have resulted in the officer being forced to shoot the perp.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #80 May 26, 2009 QuoteQuoteExcept kicking the suspect in the head unnecessarily when there was no some untrained observer sitting safely on his ass watching a video on the computer couldn't see an immediate threat. and even it there was no immediate thread; the officer did a damn fine job of heading off any pending threats that might have resulted in the officer being forced to shoot the perp. Yes, but he landed himself, and his department in a public relations nightmare. Leaving aside the brutality issues (and honestly, I think he was pretty out of line, regardless of the post-facto rationalizations delivered by the PR department), his chief ought to hand him his ass just for doing something as totally brain-dead as doing that with news choppers circling.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #81 May 26, 2009 Quoteand even it there was no immediate thread; the officer did a damn fine job of heading off any pending threats that might have resulted in the officer being forced to shoot the perp. Since I can't reconcile with reality your interpretation of events clearly shown on video, there's no reason to discuss the topic any further with you.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #82 May 26, 2009 Quote>......more defensible than a cop who ......continues to hit him ..... The woman ......may think that her only chance at being safe from him is to hit him until he stops moving......... The cop should know better.......judged differently ........when it comes to their knowledge....... same stuff, nothing different, I get your point, you refuse to get mine and won't discuss from that perspective you win yay let me change the phrase and you can stew on that "if a civilian loses control and beats up on a person they clearly realize is now helpless or otherwise difused, then they should get the same punishment as the cop in the same scenario" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #83 May 26, 2009 Quote"if a civilian loses control and beats up on a person they clearly realize is now helpless or otherwise difused, then they should get the same punishment as the cop in the same scenario" I think that if they cop was not in uniform, being joe-civilian, I'd agree. The cop, operating as a cop, is a professional, with significant powers and trust granted to them over common civilians. If they abuse their power in that role, they deserve a greater punishment for abusing that role of trust. I think I'd equate this as: civilian assaults a civilian -> punishment should be x cop assaults a civilian -> punishment should be x (as before) + y (which is the punishment for abusing their role of power and trust) Disagree? .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #84 May 26, 2009 agree - if "y" is a separate crime with it's own set of penalties, I can see that (though, the clothes one wears shouldn't invalidate Billvon's precious training......) to that point - one form of y is "failure to perform his duties" - i.e., he failed to stop an assault (considering he was the one that was doing the assault,....) again, this is about training and duty.... this is different than holding two human beings to the same standard of expecting them to do the least harm possible - to the best of each of their individual abilities - but in all cases, being in control at all times to recognize where that limit lies is something one should expect from anyone regardless of training. It's a minimum standard I expect from others, even though I recognize it's doesn't happen in reality - because I recognize that control is a choice and always in the hands of each individual. that's a 'standard', different results based on training and ability is a horse of a different color a 'standard' is expecting your 18 year old and your 6 year old to meet the same standards of studying hard and trying to get an A. Just because one is working to the A for calculus and the other to an A for finger painting, I'd still call that the same standard. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #85 May 26, 2009 QuoteI think I'd equate this as: civilian assaults a civilian -> punishment should be x cop assaults a civilian -> punishment should be x (as before) + y (which is the punishment for abusing their role of power and trust) That sounds quite reasonable.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #86 May 26, 2009 QuoteSince I can't reconcile with reality your interpretation of events clearly shown on video, there's no reason to discuss the topic any further with you. And since I can't reconcile your lack qualification to interpret what you think you see based on your own limited life experience, that might be best. Cops will always get graded on a curve from me, and until you go from sipping a cup of coffee to putting your life on the line for people you don't know in no time flat, you don't have the stones to form an opinion that will carry any weight with me or with anyone else who has.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #87 May 26, 2009 Not trying to be a macho hard ass here, but should you and I meet sometime, I'll lay down like that and you walk behind me and try to simulate putting cuffs on...you be the cop, I'll be the 'noncompliant'. You will not get me cuffed by yourself, probably not with another persons help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sure, uh huh. If you think so. Quote Like I said, you're more than welcome to t r y... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #88 May 27, 2009 QuoteCops will always get graded on a curve from me … There's the fundamental difference. I don't believe in relative, subjective standards for cops; I believe in concrete, objective standards for them. The cop in the video failed to meet such a standard.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #89 May 27, 2009 Quoteyou be the cop, I'll be the 'noncompliant'. Considering the subject in the video was not being noncompliant, your scenario is quite the red herring. Nonetheless, you seem to overestimate the ease of which someone can effectively evade restraint from a face down, arm & legs spread position. Could some people do it? A few, perhaps. Could the average person do it? Not likely.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #90 May 27, 2009 Quote Like I said, you're more than welcome to t r y Nobody wants to try because nobody wants to hear you complain constantly about how "some young whippersnapper broke your hip" when you guys were rolling around in the grass. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #91 May 27, 2009 Quoteyou seem to overestimate the ease of which someone can effectively evade restraint from a face down, arm & legs spread position. And you evidently haven't been around the block much. Spend a few years in the world and get back with me.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,390 #92 May 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteExcept kicking the suspect in the head unnecessarily when there was no some untrained observer sitting safely on his ass watching a video on the computer couldn't see an immediate threat. and even it there was no immediate thread; the officer did a damn fine job of heading off any pending threats that might have resulted in the officer being forced to shoot the perp. Now suppose there is a foot chase, it is getting dark, and the officer loses sight of the perp for a few minutes, then catches sight of him again. Only problem is, it isn't really the perp; It is an innocent bystander wearing similar clothes, (maybe you), in his own yard, who is ordered to the ground by the cops, who is then kicked in the head. You see any problem with that? I didn't see any cops in that video. All I saw was a gang of thugs impersonating cops."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #93 May 27, 2009 and if "ifs" were fifths, we'd all be drunk. I have been taken down and cuffed because I was standing near where a fight broke out at a concert. Know what I did. I calmly cooperated and did what the big bastard with the gun told me to until the situation calmed down enough to talk to him. I remember his amazed look when he said "You're sober". He apologized for cuffing me, I accepted that he was doing his job to the best of his ability and playing the hand he was dealt and all was right with the world.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #94 May 27, 2009 QuoteAnd you evidently haven't been around the block much. More than you might think, judging from your posts. Believe it or not, you're not the only person in these forums with some life experience.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
