chuckakers 370 #51 March 14, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuotein general social conformity is valued, standing out too much is a no-no. Oh, you mean socialism. You know, you really should Google 'Socialism' sometime. I am fully aware of the definition of socialism. In this case, I'm commenting on the typical behavior of people who live under socialist rule. Socialism is communism disguised as democracy.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #52 March 14, 2009 So if being civil and honest makes you a socialist, does that mean all capitalists are criminals by nature? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #53 March 14, 2009 Quotejust a few comments on Switzerland: gun related deaths are roughly in line with the rest of Europe per capita. Not if suicides are included. au.geocities.com/googla007/gun-deaths-ownership2.jpgIf you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #54 March 14, 2009 QuoteQuotejust a few comments on Switzerland: gun related deaths are roughly in line with the rest of Europe per capita. Not if suicides are included. au.geocities.com/googla007/gun-deaths-ownership2.jpg It appears there is a linear relationship between percentage of households with guns and intentional firearm related deaths. If anything, Switzerland appears to have (very slightly) fewer such deaths than would be predicted by a linear regression model, although I would have to do the regression to verify that.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #55 March 14, 2009 QuoteSo if being civil and honest makes you a socialist, does that mean all capitalists are criminals by nature? Don Where do you get civil and honest out of "social conformity is valued, standing out too much is a no-no"? People can be civil and honest without conforming or refraining from standing out too much.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #56 March 15, 2009 Just jerking your chain. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #57 March 15, 2009 QuoteQuotejust a few comments on Switzerland: gun related deaths are roughly in line with the rest of Europe per capita. Not if suicides are included. au.geocities.com/googla007/gun-deaths-ownership2.jpg Now you just have to prove the suicides wouldn't have happened if those nasty old guns weren't available and you MIGHT just have a point.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #58 March 15, 2009 QuoteNow you just have to prove the suicides wouldn't have happened if those nasty old guns weren't available and you MIGHT just have a point. You mean something like this? http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/211982/suicide_rates_significantly_higher.html?cat=7 http://www.jtrauma.com/pt/re/jtrauma/abstract.00005373-200704000-00031.htm;jsessionid=J8rXH5FTrcGFTkH52JCLLWbtyVnLnQCyB27XLVpW1bnw3LYyphX4!-1046349743!181195628!8091!-1?index=1&database=ppvovft&results=1&count=10&searchid=1&nav=search http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/10/989quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #59 March 15, 2009 Link - 2001 numbers Firearms - 16869 suicides There are approximately 750000 suicide attempts per year. link QuoteAn estimated eight to 25 attempted suicides occur per every suicide death. (2007) Looks like there's a WHOLE lot of people trying poison, ropes or knives compared to guns, huh? Since we're on the "blame the tool" kick (still), maybe you can explain WHY the top ten Brady states have the following stats? (2007 numbers) 80% ABOVE the national average for all murders 86% ABOVE the national average for all firearms murders 99% ABOVE the national average for handgun murders 4% ABOVE the national average for rifle murders 31% ABOVE the national average for shotgun murders 6% BELOW the national average for "other gun" murders (finally, something that's below the nat'l avg) 98% ABOVE the national average for knife murders 50% ABOVE the national average for "other weapon" murders 53% ABOVE the national average for beating murders (hands/fists/feet) (this is WITHOUT DC, by the way - although it would have scored an 84 Brady score, they did not have the murder weapon breakdown, so it was omitted) I'll add the info for the bottom 10 Brady States, since I'm sure you're going to ask: 25% BELOW the national average for all murders 23% BELOW the national average for all firearms murders 25% ABOVE the national average for rifle murders 17% BELOW the national average for shotgun murders 13% BELOW the national average for "other gun" murders 39% BELOW the national average for knife murders 30% BELOW the national average for "other weapon" murders 18% BELOW the national average for beating murders (hands/fists/feet)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #60 March 15, 2009 QuoteLink - 2001 numbers Did you bother to read your link? It shows very clearly that suicide rates are highest in states with the highest gun ownership.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #61 March 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteLink - 2001 numbers Did you bother to read your link? It shows very clearly that suicide rates are highest in states with the highest gun ownership. Where are the other 735 THOUSAND suicide attempts per year coming from? Obviously not from guns, given the lethality of a contact-range gunshot.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #62 March 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteLink - 2001 numbers Did you bother to read your link? It shows very clearly that suicide rates are highest in states with the highest gun ownership. Where are the other 735 THOUSAND suicide attempts per year coming from? Obviously not from guns, given the lethality of a contact-range gunshot. Reading comprehension is important.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #63 March 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLink - 2001 numbers Did you bother to read your link? It shows very clearly that suicide rates are highest in states with the highest gun ownership. Where are the other 735 THOUSAND suicide attempts per year coming from? Obviously not from guns, given the lethality of a contact-range gunshot. Reading comprehension is important. Too bad you haven't shown any. Answer the question.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #64 March 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLink - 2001 numbers Did you bother to read your link? It shows very clearly that suicide rates are highest in states with the highest gun ownership. Where are the other 735 THOUSAND suicide attempts per year coming from? Obviously not from guns, given the lethality of a contact-range gunshot. Reading comprehension is important. Too bad you haven't shown any. Answer the question. The question is meaningless. The data is unequivocal - intentional gun fatalities correlate extremely well wil gun ownership rates, both within the USA and between nations.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #65 March 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLink - 2001 numbers Did you bother to read your link? It shows very clearly that suicide rates are highest in states with the highest gun ownership. Where are the other 735 THOUSAND suicide attempts per year coming from? Obviously not from guns, given the lethality of a contact-range gunshot. Reading comprehension is important. Too bad you haven't shown any. Answer the question. The question is meaningless. The data is unequivocal - intentional gun fatalities correlate extremely well wil gun ownership rates, both within the USA and between nations. The fact that there are (2001 numbers) 735 THOUSAND attempts by other means (some 15000 of those successful) shows that there are MANY more attempts made by hanging, cutting and poison. All the data shows is that suicide attempts by gun have a higher success rate.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #66 March 15, 2009 I'm still trying to figure out what suicide rates have to do with gun ownership and/or gun control laws. Are y'all trying to say that owning a gun makes you more likely to commit suicide?? I can certainly see where a gun can make your attempt more likely to succeed should you elect to try it, but implying that it is more likely to occur is nuts!!As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #67 March 15, 2009 QuoteI'm still trying to figure out what suicide rates have to do with gun ownership and/or gun control laws. Are y'all trying to say that owning a gun makes you more likely to commit suicide?? I can certainly see where a gun can make your attempt more likely to succeed should you elect to try it, but implying that it is more likely to occur is nuts!! If you bothered to read the articles, it is explained.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #68 March 16, 2009 QuoteI'm still trying to figure out what suicide rates have to do with gun ownership and/or gun control laws. Are y'all trying to say that owning a gun makes you more likely to commit suicide?? I can certainly see where a gun can make your attempt more likely to succeed should you elect to try it, but implying that it is more likely to occur is nuts!! That's what they're trying to claim, yes, when in fact all it shows is that a gun suicide attempt is more successful than hanging/poison/cutting. They conveniently dismiss the fact that there are some 750 THOUSAND attempts per year, and there are between 8 and 25 attempts for each suicide. Given the lethality of gun suicide attempts, it stands to reason that there are many, MANY more attempts by hanging/poison/cutting than by guns. They CAN'T admit those facts (even though they come from the same sources) since it would show their argument to be bullshit.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piper17 1 #69 March 16, 2009 Amen!"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #70 March 16, 2009 QuoteThey CAN'T admit those facts (even though they come from the same sources) since it would show their argument to be bullshit. And for the same reason, you can't admit that a gun is a very effective suicide enabler. The data is perfectly clear that it is far and away the most effective method. Since, according to the studies previously posted, the vast majority of suicides are impulsive actions the presence of the gun ensures with near certainty it will be nearly instantaneously successful. Other methods may require planning and time which gives the person opportunities to rethink and calm down from the crisis. Some methods allow for a second chance due to failure or time they take to cause death. Of course, you'd know this if you'd actually read the articles.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #71 March 17, 2009 "If you bothered to read the articles, it is explained." I did read the articles ... but just because someone gets it put into print doesn't mean it makes sense. I still don't see how any REAL correlation can be made between guns and suicide rates. Yes, guns make attempts more successful, but contributing to the number of attempts?? I don't buy it! Maybe I'm a bit callous, but the way I see it ... if someone wants to off themself, let 'em. And yes, I've had 2 people I knew do so with guns, and another tried different way out, but was saved by a friend before he could bleed out after turning himself into a permanent soprano.As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #72 March 20, 2009 The correlation is between guns and successful suicides, not between guns and suicide attempts. A suicide completion, gesture, and ideation are three very different things. Basically, a higher rate of gun ownership means more people who attempt suicide will be able to complete it successfully because more of them will use a gun instead of using something else, like an overdose of a drug, which would tend to be less successful. Also, going back to the Swiss discussion, I'd like to point out that Switzerland has the second highest quality of life index (as of 2005), the seventh highest GDP per capita, and a relatively low Gini coefficient. I'd hypothesize that rich countries filled with happy people with very little gap between the rich and the poor tend to have very low crime rates, regardless of gun ownership rates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #73 March 20, 2009 QuoteI'd like to point out that Switzerland has the second highest quality of life index (as of 2005), the seventh highest GDP per capita, and a relatively low Gini coefficient. I'd hypothesize that rich countries filled with happy people with very little gap between the rich and the poor tend to have very low crime rates, regardless of gun ownership rates. Correct. Gun crime is not caused by gun ownership. It's caused by cultural factors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #74 March 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteI'd like to point out that Switzerland has the second highest quality of life index (as of 2005), the seventh highest GDP per capita, and a relatively low Gini coefficient. I'd hypothesize that rich countries filled with happy people with very little gap between the rich and the poor tend to have very low crime rates, regardless of gun ownership rates. Correct. Gun crime is not caused by gun ownership. It's caused by cultural factors. Like a culture of worshipping guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,436 #75 March 20, 2009 >Gun crime is not caused by gun ownership. It's caused by cultural factors. Never thought I'd hear the day that John Rich agreed with Michael Moore on gun crime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
