jerryzflies 0 #51 March 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteOr a total waste of stockholder money. If Honda and Toyota can do very well without paying exorbitant salaries to their execs, why can't US corporations? There are tangible social differences in culture. Indeed, Japanese execs aren't greedy like ours. Funny how "culture" is always used by the right to excuse poor US comparisons with other nations, whether in gun homicides, life expectancy, infant mortality, and now excessive executive pay. It's also funny how the same people who bemoan UAW workers having higher pay than workers for Toyota and Honda have no problem with the US auto execs raping their companies. PS How are you getting on with the "R" word? Do you believe it yet?If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #52 March 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteOr a total waste of stockholder money. If Honda and Toyota can do very well without paying exorbitant salaries to their execs, why can't US corporations? There are tangible social differences in culture. Indeed, Japanese execs aren't greedy like ours. Funny how "culture" is always used by the right to excuse poor US comparisons with other nations, whether in gun homicides, life expectancy, infant mortality, and now excessive executive pay. That's a pretty narrow minded assessment. I wrote nothing that made an excuse, I stated a fact that people somehow overlook. GM once had a culture of an auto-enthusiast. It was squashed out long ago, and for them, that is what they need to regain in order to stay viable. Japanese corporations operate more from a premise of achieving excellence...a different application of enthusiasm. QuoteIt's also funny how the same people who bemoan UAW workers having higher pay than workers for Toyota and Honda have no problem with the US auto execs raping their companies. You apparently aren't reading my posts too clearly then. Mr. Waggoner's compensation is not crippling the company. The BILLIONS is spends for workers that don't work is. It's simple math. It costs GM $70/hr + to build a car. It costs Toyota and Honda barely half that. Which one is more competitive and is able to retain a higher margin? In one of my previous posts, I singled out one executive above all at GM that need to leave. Bob Lutz is the Vice-Chair and head of Global Product Development. He's had his fingers in the mix since 2001 and GM's product line has diminished significantly (save Cadillac) across the board. He needs to go, not because of the money he makes ($6-7M/yr), but because his passions lie beyond any practical application of automobile. Couple that with out of control rebranding, and labor costs, et voila...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #53 March 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr a total waste of stockholder money. If Honda and Toyota can do very well without paying exorbitant salaries to their execs, why can't US corporations? There are tangible social differences in culture. Indeed, Japanese execs aren't greedy like ours. Funny how "culture" is always used by the right to excuse poor US comparisons with other nations, whether in gun homicides, life expectancy, infant mortality, and now excessive executive pay. That's a pretty narrow minded assessment. I wrote nothing that made an excuse, I stated a fact that people somehow overlook. GM once had a culture of an auto-enthusiast. It was squashed out long ago, and for them, that is what they need to regain in order to stay viable. Japanese corporations operate more from a premise of achieving excellence...a different application of enthusiasm. QuoteIt's also funny how the same people who bemoan UAW workers having higher pay than workers for Toyota and Honda have no problem with the US auto execs raping their companies. You apparently aren't reading my posts too clearly then. Mr. Waggoner's compensation is not crippling the company. I suppose you have never heard of the concept of leading by example. The EXAMPLE set by greedy execs is crippling the company.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #54 March 8, 2009 QuoteI suppose you have never heard of the concept of leading by example. The EXAMPLE set by greedy execs is crippling the company. I don't disagree with you, but that is not a requirement in operating a business. That emotional element is what too many distort the reality. Being the CEO of a global enterprise is not a common occurrence. The executive pay scale is barely a ripple on the balance sheet as a whole. What isn't, is 10,000 worker job bank, $75/hr mfg costs, and a pension that is over promised to too many people.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #55 March 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteI suppose you have never heard of the concept of leading by example. The EXAMPLE set by greedy execs is crippling the company. I don't disagree with you, but that is not a requirement in operating a business. That emotional element is what too many distort the reality. Being the CEO of a global enterprise is not a common occurrence. The executive pay scale is barely a ripple on the balance sheet as a whole. What isn't, is 10,000 worker job bank, $75/hr mfg costs, and a pension that is over promised to too many people. It does not matter one iota if the executive compensation is only 0.000000000001% of the company expenditures. If the execs show no restraint in setting their own compensation packages, why should the unions? THAT is what leadership is all about. US corporate leadership over the last 30 years has set GREED as its example. And GREED is what has put our economy in the crapper.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #56 March 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI suppose you have never heard of the concept of leading by example. The EXAMPLE set by greedy execs is crippling the company. I don't disagree with you, but that is not a requirement in operating a business. That emotional element is what too many distort the reality. Being the CEO of a global enterprise is not a common occurrence. The executive pay scale is barely a ripple on the balance sheet as a whole. What isn't, is 10,000 worker job bank, $75/hr mfg costs, and a pension that is over promised to too many people. It does not matter one iota if the executive compensation is only 0.000000000001% of the company expenditures. If the execs show no restraint in setting their own compensation packages, why should the unions? THAT is what leadership is all about. US corporate leadership over the last 30 years has set GREED as its example. And GREED is what has put our economy in the crapper. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but again, that argument is based on subjective emotional reasoning. Unless you or I are shareholders of a going concern, it matters not what anyone makes (not depriving us of an opinion of course). As a shareholder of dozens of companies, I want the CEOs to have a measure of greed, and if the companies perform well, I personally hope they get mega-bonuses. However, with that performance needs to come a pinch when things aren't going well. So, should CEO Waggoner of GM be receiving tens-of-millions in comp while GM is losing billions. My opinion is no. However, is the executive compensation the line-item-outlay that is burying this company? No.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #57 March 8, 2009 Quote THAT is what leadership is all about. US corporate leadership over the last 30 years has set GREED as its example. And GREED is what has put our economy in the crapper. Same can be said for the unions. It's a chicken or egg argument. If the stockholders are OK with the comp package who are we to disagree? The underlying theme to these arguments is capitalism v. socialism. Current government would have us believe that it's the evil capitalists who cause these problems. And now they've injected themselves into the equation with the bailouts. They're starting to dictate how these companies are to be run. A recipe for disaster.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #58 March 8, 2009 Quote Quote THAT is what leadership is all about. US corporate leadership over the last 30 years has set GREED as its example. And GREED is what has put our economy in the crapper. Same can be said for the unions. It's a chicken or egg argument. To quote myself (since you snipped it): If the execs show no restraint in setting their own compensation packages, why should the unions? The execs set the tone for the company - they (are supposed to) provide leadership. Now, if you are suggesting the unions set the example for the executives, then maybe the union bosses should BE the executives. Quote If the stockholders are OK with the comp package who are we to disagree? I am a stockholder and never once have I been asked my opinion about CEO compensation. You know perfectly well that the board decides these things, and the boards are so incestuous it's hardly surprising we've produced monsters. Quote The underlying theme to these arguments is capitalism v. socialism. Current government would have us believe that it's the evil capitalists who cause these problems. And now they've injected themselves into the equation with the bailouts. They're starting to dictate how these companies are to be run. A recipe for disaster Seems to me the capitalists have done a pretty good job of creating a disaster all by themseves.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #59 March 8, 2009 QuoteSeems to me the capitalists have done a pretty good job of creating a disaster all by themselves. FEMA is for disasters. This one in and of itself wasn't a disaster until the government got involved...starting with GWB and the bailouts. Recessions are painful, always have been. A company like GM has been teetering on the precipice for years. This recession will push them off the edge...and rightly so. Same for all the other weak, poorly run companies. News flash: It's gonna hurt. Let's start the healing process and work back to a better economy. Your wanting to place blame on the CEO's is correct. But free market economy's work. They require some regulations and there will always be ups and downs. To condemn the free market economy is like saying all black clergymen are idiots because Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #60 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteSeems to me the capitalists have done a pretty good job of creating a disaster all by themselves. FEMA is for disasters. This one in and of itself wasn't a disaster until the government got involved...starting with GWB and the bailouts. Recessions are painful, always have been. A company like GM has been teetering on the precipice for years. This recession will push them off the edge...and rightly so. Same for all the other weak, poorly run companies. News flash: It's gonna hurt. Let's start the healing process and work back to a better economy. Your wanting to place blame on the CEO's is correct. But free market economy's work. They require some regulations and there will always be ups and downs. I wonder why those capitalists are going cap-in-hand to Washington. Quote To condemn the free market economy is like saying all black clergymen are idiots because Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are. I prefer the analogy that all red-state presidents are lousy because George Bush was.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #61 March 9, 2009 QuoteAgree 100%. This is what bankruptcy is for. True, but Chapter 13 wouldn't be the answer. They need a Chapter 11 so they can get reorganized by the courts. It will allow GM to renegotiate those blood sucking, entitlement vacuum, UAW Union contracts. Between that and the cafe standards, I don't know how they even have a prayer. Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #62 March 9, 2009 Quote FEMA is for disasters. This one in and of itself wasn't a disaster until the government got involved...starting with GWB and the bailouts. It was nearly a year ago that the Gov brokered the deal by which JPM bought Bear for $2/share (eventually raised to $10) The liquidity/leverage issues won't go away on their own - non action would not improve our lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #63 March 9, 2009 Quote- non action would not improve our lot. Well, "action" hasn't boded well either. Every time someone in the new administration talks about the "recovery", the market sinks like a stone.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #64 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuote- non action would not improve our lot. Well, "action" hasn't boded well either. Every time someone in the new administration talks about the "recovery", the market sinks like a stone. Sorry, not every time. Which long ago lead me to believe that the attempts to place meaning on every day's activity is suspect anyway. Many events contribute to each day. And ultimately, it's the psyche of the investors, who are not always rational. But your claim was recent meddling has made this into a full disaster, and that's a load of crap. It was a disaster regardless of the intervention and there is no certain solution, nor any way to know until after the fact if the approach was valid. The people had no faith in Bush nor McCain, who openly admitted not understanding economics very well, so they rolled the dice on the other side. If they aren't happy in 2010, there will likely be a massive shift in power in Congress. If they are, then we'll likely see a supermajority in the Senate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #65 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteAgree 100%. This is what bankruptcy is for. True, but Chapter 13 wouldn't be the answer. They need a Chapter 11 so they can get reorganized by the courts. It will allow GM to renegotiate those blood sucking, entitlement vacuum, UAW Union contracts. Between that and the cafe standards, I don't know how they even have a prayer. How do you feel about blood-sucking executives making millions while the company is going down the tubes? Or do you reserve your animosity for workers?If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AWL71 0 #66 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteAgree 100%. This is what bankruptcy is for. True, but Chapter 13 wouldn't be the answer. They need a Chapter 11 so they can get reorganized by the courts. It will allow GM to renegotiate those blood sucking, entitlement vacuum, UAW Union contracts. Between that and the cafe standards, I don't know how they even have a prayer. How do you feel about blood-sucking executives making millions while the company is going down the tubes? Or do you reserve your animosity for workers? Two wrongs don't make a right. The blood sucking executives are just as guilty as the blood sucking UAW. Even if GM had world class leadership and cars that people wanted to buy I still feel the UAW would eventually bankrupt GM.The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #67 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAgree 100%. This is what bankruptcy is for. True, but Chapter 13 wouldn't be the answer. They need a Chapter 11 so they can get reorganized by the courts. It will allow GM to renegotiate those blood sucking, entitlement vacuum, UAW Union contracts. Between that and the cafe standards, I don't know how they even have a prayer. How do you feel about blood-sucking executives making millions while the company is going down the tubes? Or do you reserve your animosity for workers? Two wrongs don't make a right. The blood sucking executives are just as guilty as the blood sucking UAW. Even if GM had world class leadership and cars that people wanted to buy I still feel the UAW would eventually bankrupt GM. IF GM had world class leadership they would have made world class decisions about building cars people wanted to buy and would have negotiated world class contracts with their workers. Leadership failures led to GM's demise. Failure to make rational choices over product mix, failure to negotiate effectively with their workers. Yet the leaders still think they deserve world class compensation. Or better than world class, since they pay themselves far more than Japanese car execs.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #68 March 9, 2009 Quote would have negotiated world class contracts with their workers That's some funny shit right there There are 180,681 employees and an additional 539,000+ retired and surviving spouses. Imagine running your company when you're paying pensions and benefits to 539,000 additional people who no longer contribute to the bottom line. It's not possible. Sure, the car makers agreed to this package...under threat of strikes. The greedy union members will bring this industry to its knees.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #69 March 9, 2009 Quote Quote would have negotiated world class contracts with their workers That's some funny shit right there There are 180,681 employees and an additional 539,000+ retired and surviving spouses. Imagine running your company when you're paying pensions and benefits to 539,000 additional people who no longer contribute to the bottom line. It's not possible. Sure, the car makers agreed to this package...under threat of strikes. The greedy union members will bring this industry to its knees. Apparently the concept of leadership, and the responsibility that goes along with it, totally evades you. The unions have no duty to run GM - management does, and that includes negotiating contracts with the unions. GMs leaders greedily accepted the rewards of their positions while failing miserably to run the corporation effectively. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #70 March 9, 2009 Here is something to think about... if GM goes Chapter 11 or Chapter 13, how soon afterward do you think Ford will follow? If GM is able to break the labor contracts by going for bankruptcy Ford will have no choice but to claim they will not be able to compete and will need to follow suit to remain competitive.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #71 March 9, 2009 >Here is something to think about... if GM goes Chapter 11 or Chapter 13, >how soon afterward do you think Ford will follow? Not rapidly at all if they're smart. The loss of such a big supplier (even a significant slowdown) will put Ford at a competitive advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #72 March 9, 2009 Quote There are 180,681 employees and an additional 539,000+ retired and surviving spouses. Imagine running your company when you're paying pensions and benefits to 539,000 additional people who no longer contribute to the bottom line. It's not possible. Of course it's possible. You fund the pension during their time of employment. Now they wouldn't be the first to underfund, esp like during the 90s when the portfolio was growing 20% by itself, but that is a management decision, and a poor one. Health insurance is a different matter - I don't think any large company can escape the escalating prices unless we dramatically change how coverage is done in our country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #73 March 9, 2009 QuoteHere is something to think about... if GM goes Chapter 11 or Chapter 13, how soon afterward do you think Ford will follow? If GM is able to break the labor contracts by going for bankruptcy Ford will have no choice but to claim they will not be able to compete and will need to follow suit to remain competitive. Ford doesn't need the cash as badly as GM. CEO Mulally leveraged Ford to the hilt a few years ago, and has enough cash/credit secured to ride this storm out for up to three years by some estimates. Chrysler appears to be in a pretty good position with Fiat right now (another GM legacy to bite GM in the @ss). Ford has already been able to start securing concessions from the labor side ahead of GM/Chrysler.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #74 March 10, 2009 Quote>Here is something to think about... if GM goes Chapter 11 or Chapter 13, >how soon afterward do you think Ford will follow? Not rapidly at all if they're smart. The loss of such a big supplier (even a significant slowdown) will put Ford at a competitive advantage. Don't they use many of the same parts suppliers? GM in CH. 11 will force some of those mutual suppliers into bankruptcy as well.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #75 March 10, 2009 Yes they do. Glass is supplied by the same supplier as is some other common components like the wiring harnesses, the carpet, the seats (they used to be a common supplier), etc. Delphi is a great example of the issue, they are the exclusive supplier to GM for a large amount of parts, once GM fails so will Delphi. Some other companies like Lear (wiring) are only able to survive when they are sending parts to all the manufacturers, if one closes there may not be enough workers left around to fulfill the parts orders for the remaining contracts. If they are able to survive then there will be large work force reductions at those companies and retooling of facilities that are not able to be funded right now when the companies are already in the red.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
