No_Phear 0 #1 January 6, 2009 Since there has been soo much discussio in another thread with a lot of heated debate between Christians and non... I get the idea that there are some of my fellow skydivers who believe God does not even exist, largely because they cannot prove it, or there is no scientific evidence. So I pose this question. If you say that I cannot prove to you that God exists, then I would ask you to prove to me that he does not. And I should remind you, that even Evolution is just a theory. It has not, and cannot be proven, so there is no scientific evidence in that either is there? But before you say caveman drawings and bones blah, blah, blah..... keep in mind you only think these are evidence of evolution, because someone told you it was, and you believed them. It has not been proven exactly what it all means, so Evolution must also be taken on faith. Discuss amongst yourselves Tact is not my specialty..... Dirty Sanchez #453 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #2 January 6, 2009 >And I should remind you, that even Evolution is just a theory. It has not, and >cannot be proven, so there is no scientific evidence in that either is there? Actually there is. We have seen species evolve and become new species. We have seen the genetic changes that occur when bacteria evolve drug resistance. We've seen adaptive radiation in action in cichlid populations. If there were as much proof for God as there was for evolution, there would be no atheists. (Well, I suppose there would be one or two, and they'd probably all be posting on Speaker's Corner.) >so Evolution must also be taken on faith. We have seen it happen with our own eyes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #3 January 6, 2009 Quote And I should remind you, that even Evolution is just a theory. It has not, and cannot be proven, so there is no scientific evidence in that either is there? Just to make sure we're both talking about the same thing: do you mean "theory" in the vernacular speculative idea/hypthetical notion usage? Or in the precise scientific meaning? The two usages are almost antonyms of each other and most definitely NOT synonyms. All scientific theories are falsifiable from electromagnetism to "germ theory," i.e., bacteria and viruses cause infectious diseases (not "bad spirits," the evil witch down the lane, etc.) to atomic theory to (mathematical) group theory to clonal selection theory (immunity), etc. To be falsifiable is a requirement of a scientific theory. Understanding evolution as the physical-chemical method by which humans and all other living species on Earth came to be does not necessarily obviate belief in a higher deity. They are not incompatible. It’s sometimes known as theistic evolution. One way of reconciling evolutionary theory with belief in God is to consider God to have sparked the Big Bang, which eventually led to evolution. That’s not intelligent design either. The compatibility of evolution and believing in a higher power is well-illustrated by Chapter 3 & some of the other sidebars (e.g., pp. 13-15) in the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) and the Institute of Medicine (IOM)’s “Science, Evolution, and Creationism” report. It includes statements by Pope John Paul II, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the Presbyterian General Assembly, and the Clergy Letter Project disputing the claim that evolution is in conflict with religious belief. I’m heartened to see that minister at my church has signed the latter. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaRusic 0 #4 January 6, 2009 this is a go nowhere discussion like most religious debates but enjoy the picture....kind sums everything up quite nicelyThe Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless Dudeist Skydiver # 10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
No_Phear 0 #5 January 6, 2009 Quote Actually there is. We have seen species evolve and become new species. I disagree, give an example? In keeping with the definition of Evolution: (Biology) change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift. Quote We have seen the genetic changes that occur when bacteria evolve drug resistance. We've seen adaptive radiation in action in cichlid opulations. Again, I do not think it fits Evolution, rather mutation. Quote If there were as much proof for God as there was for evolution, there would be no atheists. There is as much proof, but most choose not to believe it. Quote We have seen it happen with our own eyes. Not even in the romote sense of how we supposedly evolved, and again it does not prove that God does not exist, evolution in itself, could only prove the existence of God if I choose, by saying that Evolution was the process God choose to use. Tact is not my specialty..... Dirty Sanchez #453 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
No_Phear 0 #6 January 6, 2009 Quotethis is a go nowhere discussion like most religious debates but enjoy the picture....kind sums everything up quite nicely The picture is funny, but hardly applies 100% You have to define in a particular instance what qualifies as proof. In the case of God, there is proof, but many dismiss it as non-proof. Kinda like your cartoon character in the first frame saying, no, that's not really a baseball, that's a round piece of leather that apeared over the last several minutes due to the reaction between the temperature in your hand, and the sweat in you palm, blah blah, blah.... sounds stupid doesn't it? So does one saying that all things created like the universe, life, time, etc. are not proof that there is a God, it's all just happenstance. All things are created, and therefore there is a creator. That creator is God. Tact is not my specialty..... Dirty Sanchez #453 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 January 6, 2009 Quote If you say that I cannot prove to you that God exists, then I would ask you to prove to me that he does not. Generally there is a higher burden of proof on those declaring a positive statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,150 #8 January 6, 2009 Just so we know where we're starting from, I believe in God. What proof (besides the Bible) is there of God? By proof, I'm talking about something that can be independently and consistently verified using the same procedure each time. And evolution is simply the result of mutations that are more successful than the unmutated version doing well because of the current circumstances. Had the moa evolved to something faster and smaller, it might not have looked quite so much like an easy dinner to the people who first showed up in New Zealand. It was well suited to one set of circumstances (no people), but not as well suited to the next (people). Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
No_Phear 0 #9 January 6, 2009 See my above post, but I could argue that your very existence is proof that there is a God. Tact is not my specialty..... Dirty Sanchez #453 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #10 January 6, 2009 Blah, blah, blah ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #11 January 6, 2009 QuoteSee my above post, but I could argue that your very existence is proof that there is a God. I'd like to see you try.... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaRusic 0 #12 January 6, 2009 im all for people having religion and what not, but with all the suffering that all the third world countries endure, all the war that this world has endoured, the millions killed, the amount of people that are raped and tortured, the racisim and every other bad thing in this world i find it really hard to believe that there is some great god out there looking out for us....if there is a god i bet ya its someone with the mentality of a 5 year old just fucking with us oh yeah and the representatives of god have a great track record.....blaming all worlds problems on gays and birthcontrol, then priests raping and molesting underage boys.....good game buds you have your god, i'll take my scienceThe Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless Dudeist Skydiver # 10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #13 January 6, 2009 Ever heard the term "only the strongest will survive"? Until we started messing around with nature through medicine thats exactly what it was like. The fittest survive, the weakest die off. That is evolution at its simplist. I fail to see how you can dispute that fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,260 #14 January 6, 2009 QuoteIf you say that I cannot prove to you that God exists, then I would ask you to prove to me that he does not. Not my job. You're the one with the story, it's up to you to show that it is true. QuoteAnd I should remind you, that even Evolution is just a theory. Evolution is both a fact and a theory. Evolution happens. I would also remind you that in the scientific vernacular "Theory" is the highest possible status that an explanatory idea can have. QuoteIt has not, and cannot be proven, so there is no scientific evidence in that either is there? There is mountains of evidence that shows evolution happens. It is quite possibly the most well supported idea in the whole of science. QuoteBut before you say caveman drawings and bones blah, blah, blah..... keep in mind you only think these are evidence of evolution, because someone told you it was, and you believed them. It has not been proven exactly what it all means, so Evolution must also be taken on faith. You need to do some serious learning.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #15 January 6, 2009 QuoteAnd I should remind you, that even Evolution is just a theory. It has not, and cannot be proven, so there is no scientific evidence in that either is there? WTF? There IS scientific evidence for Evolution, and that is WHY it's a valid theory! A hypothesis does not become a theory, or a part of a theory, unless it is tested & found that there IS scientific evidence in favor of it. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,260 #16 January 6, 2009 QuoteNot even in the romote sense of how we supposedly evolved, and again it does not prove that God does not exist, No one said it did. We're discussing evolution because you mentioned it in your first post. Quoteevolution in itself, could only prove the existence of God if I choose, by saying that Evolution was the process God choose to use. No, you really couldn't. Go look up what the word "prove" means.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #17 January 6, 2009 Also, whether or not evolution happened, and whether or not God exists, are two entirely different questions. Only the fundies & related groups have a Religious problem with evolution. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #18 January 6, 2009 Quote Ever heard the term "only the strongest will survive"? Until we started messing around with nature through medicine thats exactly what it was like. The fittest survive, the weakest die off. That is evolution at its simplist. I fail to see how you can dispute that fact. I can dispute it ... or at least muddy the proverbial miasmic waters. Perhaps if you re-consider the hypothesis a little you may see where/how compassion/altruism benefits the long term survival of the human species (think about reproduction and enabling your progeny to survive and reproduce in the future just to start, along with cooperative building). And that's not just speculation on my part. The disparate fields of sociobiology, philosophy, evolutionary psychology, & economic game theory deal directly with this. Just a few examples off the top of my head (when I first put responded to another thread : Moral (or usually expressed as the positivist “cooperative behavior”) has been shown to be an evolutionary trait that benefits human survival, e.g., “the Grandmother (& Grandfather) Hypothesis.” Reciprocal Altruism, which traces its citation lineage to Darwin. Myriad examples of altruistic behavior have been observed in creatures from primates to birds to ants, all with benefits. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #19 January 6, 2009 >> We have seen species evolve and become new species. >I disagree, give an example? Here are a few organisms that have speciated while we have watched: Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas) Kew Primrose (Primula kewensis) Raphanobrassica Hemp Nettle (Galeopsis tetrahit) Madia citrigracilis Brassica Maidenhair Fern (Adiantum pedatum) Woodsia Fern (Woodsia abbeae) Stephanomeira malheurensis Yellow Monkey Flower (Mimulus guttatus) Fruit fly (Drosophila paulistorum) >Again, I do not think it fits Evolution, rather mutation. Same thing. Mutation + natural selection = evolution. >There is as much proof, but most choose not to believe it. I doubt there are any scientifically validated reports of wine actually turning into blood. >and again it does not prove that God does not exist, evolution in itself, >could only prove the existence of God if I choose, by saying that Evolution was >the process God choose to use. You're starting to waffle here. I never claimed God does not exist; you seem to be claiming that evolution a) does not explain how we got here but b) does explain how we got here as long as you tie God into it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
missg8tordivr 0 #20 January 6, 2009 Evolution is a scientific fact that has been proven on various levels. However, the 'Theory of Evolution' pertains to where plants and animals came from on Earth....and is just that, still a theory. I do believe in God, but my definition falls far from the typical 'big man with a grey beard sitting in the clouds watching us scatter about.' There has to be some sort of God/Gods out there....personally, it seems egotistical to think that we are the highest forms of life in this vast universe. Just my $ .02 *** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #21 January 6, 2009 >Evolution is a scientific fact that has been proven on various levels. However, >the 'Theory of Evolution' pertains to where plants and animals came from on >Earth....and is just that, still a theory. The Theory of Evolution is a scientific fact that has been proven on various levels. Abiogenesis is the term used to describe inorganic molecules eventually organizing into the first self-replicating organism; that's what you may be referring to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #22 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote Ever heard the term "only the strongest will survive"? Until we started messing around with nature through medicine thats exactly what it was like. The fittest survive, the weakest die off. That is evolution at its simplist. I fail to see how you can dispute that fact. I can dispute it ... or at least muddy the proverbial miasmic waters. Perhaps if you re-consider the hypothesis a little you may see where/how compassion/altruism benefits the long term survival of the human species (think about reproduction and enabling your progeny to survive and reproduce in the future just to start, along with cooperative building). And that's not just speculation on my part. The disparate fields of sociobiology, philosophy, evolutionary psychology, & economic game theory deal directly with this. Just a few examples off the top of my head (when I first put responded to another thread : Moral (or usually expressed as the positivist “cooperative behavior”) has been shown to be an evolutionary trait that benefits human survival, e.g., “the Grandmother (& Grandfather) Hypothesis.” Reciprocal Altruism, which traces its citation lineage to Darwin. Myriad examples of altruistic behavior have been observed in creatures from primates to birds to ants, all with benefits. VR/Marg Perhaps that is why Darwin (big man with gray beard ) talked about survival of the fittest not strongest. Somewhat tautological though, you must admit. If you survive you are the most fit, therefore the most fit survive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #23 January 6, 2009 Quote The Theory of Evolution is a scientific fact that has been proven on various levels. Abiogenesis is the term used to describe inorganic molecules eventually organizing into the first self-replicating organism; that's what you may be referring to. I think the theory of the origin of species is separate from either abiogenesis or evolution as we have directly observed, and also needs to be recognized as not proven. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
missg8tordivr 0 #24 January 6, 2009 Your absolutely right...I should have added the theory of 'Human' evolution. From what I see.... it still has some major holes in it.*** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #25 January 6, 2009 >I think the theory of the origin of species is separate from either abiogenesis >or evolution as we have directly observed . . . As we have observed new species originating through evolution, I'd have to disagree there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
