billvon 2,400 #651 January 16, 2009 >your analogy suggests that I (as a citizen who got hurt by terror) pick up a gun >and go kill the robber's family. I'm not using you specifically; I am sure you would not do such a thing. >a better analogy would be the local police chasing the robber, getting into a >gun fight with him and killing a few people while the robber uses them as shields. Fair enough. And then the cop goes home, gets his minigun, and drives through the neighborhood of the robber killing everyone he sees - so that he can increase his chances of killing the robber. It's not his fault that the robber is hiding in a neighborhood, or that the neighborhood is primarily working class families. Of course, the robber has already moved on to another 7/11, but that's not the cop's problem. He's justified because he's mad. He's HAD ENOUGH, and he's going to sock it to 'em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #652 January 16, 2009 Quote>One causes the other. And will, forever. >As I wrote far earlier in one of these threads. When a robber at the 7-11 >causes a bystander to by shot accidental (by a cop or another bystander), > the robber is responsible; his actions were the direct cause of the event. Right. And when the owner of the 7/11 kills a few families in the robber's neighborhood because he's sick of being robbed - he is the direct cause of _those_ deaths. Yep. So if Israel bombs a quiet UN building in Tel Aviv, we can continue the conversation in that direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #653 January 16, 2009 QuoteMy goodness, your position is indefensible yet you continue. The UN denied that anyone was shooting from their buildings and for some reason I believe them. The building the Israelis targeted had food and medical supplies. Israel also hit a hospital and a building housing international journalists. Disgraceful and wrong; Perhaps it is time for the UN/US to mobilize forces to stop the Israeli aggression. Let's review. I wrote that if there were no shooters there, then it was a mistake. But if there were, then Hamas is entirely to blame. You wrote that people shooting from the building wasn't a sufficient justification. Maybe you meant to say you didn't believe they existed, but that was hardly clear from "bullshit." Have we established the actual events? Doesn't seem like it. I won't condone the targetting bombing of UN buildings because they're UN, no more than I would support the US intentionally bombing the Chinese embassy. But mistakes happen in warzones that are not deliberate acts. That's a danger of starting a war, and I've made it clear who I blame for ended the ceasefire and continuing this war. Given that Israel is going to get shit from the world regardless of what they do, maybe it is time for them to stop showing any restraint and act like every other power did in prior history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #654 January 16, 2009 QuoteLet's review. I wrote that if there were no shooters there, then it was a mistake. But if there were, then Hamas is entirely to blame. You wrote that people shooting from the building wasn't a sufficient justification. Maybe you meant to say you didn't believe they existed, but that was hardly clear from "bullshit." Have we established the actual events? Doesn't seem like it. I won't condone the targetting bombing of UN buildings because they're UN, no more than I would support the US intentionally bombing the Chinese embassy. But mistakes happen in warzones that are not deliberate acts. That's a danger of starting a war, and I've made it clear who I blame for ended the ceasefire and continuing this war. Given that Israel is going to get shit from the world regardless of what they do, maybe it is time for them to stop showing any restraint and act like every other power did in prior history. I am sorry but your views are myopic and so scandalously lopsided it frightens me. If this is indeed a war, as you have stated, the way Israel is going about it is nothing short of criminal. War Crime examples: The statutes of The Hague tribunal say the court has the right to try suspects alleged to have violated the laws or customs of war in the former Yugoslavia since 1992. Examples of such violations are given in article 3: · Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity · Attack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings · Seizure of, destruction or wilful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science · Plunder of public or private property Such attacks only become war crimes if the extent of collateral damage to civilians and civilian interests resulting from the attack would be excessive compared to the military advantage gained from the attack. And the group now perpetuating them can stand trial as they once put others on trial and in direct response to your “every other power in history line”... The concept of war crimes is a recent one. Before World War II, it was generally accepted that the horrors of war were in the nature of war. But during World War II the murder of several million people - mainly Jews - by Nazi Germany, and the mistreatment of both civilians and prisoners of war by the Japanese, prompted the Allied powers to prosecute the people they believed to be the perpetrators of these crimes. Stopping Hamas was one thing. The extent that this has been taken is another. The horrors of war simply do not justify the wanton killing of innocent people and to state otherwise is ludicrous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #655 January 16, 2009 Since your profile lists Saudi Arabia, tell me first, does Israel have a right to exist as a nation? If so, they have a right to defend themselves against rocket attacks. And if you're citing conventions of war, you must address Hamas using the shield of civilians to fight. I don't see wanton destruction of unarmed villages taking place. Yes, war crimes didn't exist before WWII. That was really the first major conflict where the idea of "total war" came about. Also in the past, when you lost a war, you lost territory. When you won, you took it. (See USSR at close of WWII for example - redefinition of Poland). Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #656 January 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou have stated that the Middle East should be turned in to a glass parking lot. You show in inability to feel for anyone who disagrees with you. You show an inability for any culture that you can not understand. You try to justify the death of children simply because there Muslims. It seems you forget that before we are a race, creed, or religion we are humane beings Ah yes more of the same old same old view of the poor agrieved brown people with victim scrawled on their foreheads( till they run around the corner to the UN Headquarters parking lot and light off a Kasam rocket then run back around the corner to get back in the demonstration ) You seem to be incapable of what peace is and what war can be. I value cultures that can live on the planet in peace and prosper and have have happy and fulfilled children. I think the parking lot idea is a VERY good one.... if you are incapable of peace then you desrve the best war the west can bring to you. Want to protect them... live in peace with your neighbors.. get on with living... rather than teaching them they have nothing to live for but to become shaheeds. I am quite sure a 5 or 6 year old is not thinking with their dick and wishing for their 72 virgins. How can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #657 January 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteLet's review. I wrote that if there were no shooters there, then it was a mistake. But if there were, then Hamas is entirely to blame. You wrote that people shooting from the building wasn't a sufficient justification. Maybe you meant to say you didn't believe they existed, but that was hardly clear from "bullshit." Have we established the actual events? Doesn't seem like it. I won't condone the targetting bombing of UN buildings because they're UN, no more than I would support the US intentionally bombing the Chinese embassy. But mistakes happen in warzones that are not deliberate acts. That's a danger of starting a war, and I've made it clear who I blame for ended the ceasefire and continuing this war. Given that Israel is going to get shit from the world regardless of what they do, maybe it is time for them to stop showing any restraint and act like every other power did in prior history. I am sorry but your views are myopic and so scandalously lopsided it frightens me. If this is indeed a war, as you have stated, the way Israel is going about it is nothing short of criminal. If this is indeed a war, Israel is fighting it decisively with no intent of stopping before the win. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #658 January 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote How can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? I'm only speaking for myself, but I think we should have gotten Saddam the first time around. Invading Iraq the 2nd time was a mistake. We should have focused solely on chasing Al Qaida in Afghanistan and trying to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and his co-horts. We almost got him at Tora Bora (name?). Taking the focus off of Afghanistan to invade Iraq just stretched us too thin. I don't know what else to say. I'm glad Saddam's not in power anymore and that he was executed, but it should have been done the first time around, just MHO. Of course, that alone probably would have changed the dynamics of the middle east and things would be different now, whether it would be worse or better, I couldn't tell."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #659 January 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote How can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? I'm only speaking for myself, but I think we should have gotten Saddam the first time around. Invading Iraq the 2nd time was a mistake. We should have focused solely on chasing Al Qaida in Afghanistan and trying to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and his co-horts. We almost got him at Tora Bora (name?). Taking the focus off of Afghanistan to invade Iraq just stretched us too thin. I don't know what else to say. I'm glad Saddam's not in power anymore and that he was executed, but it should have been done the first time around, just MHO. Of course, that alone probably would have changed the dynamics of the middle east and things would be different now, whether it would be worse or better, I couldn't tell. I agree with you on most of that. My question was to Amazon. It seems she thinks it's perfectly acceptable to wipe the Palestinians off the map and turn the entire area into a wasteland, but our fighting in Iraq is wrong on all counts. I find the double speak interesting, for lack of a better word. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #660 January 16, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote How can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? I'm only speaking for myself, but I think we should have gotten Saddam the first time around. Invading Iraq the 2nd time was a mistake. We should have focused solely on chasing Al Qaida in Afghanistan and trying to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and his co-horts. We almost got him at Tora Bora (name?). Taking the focus off of Afghanistan to invade Iraq just stretched us too thin. I don't know what else to say. I'm glad Saddam's not in power anymore and that he was executed, but it should have been done the first time around, just MHO. Of course, that alone probably would have changed the dynamics of the middle east and things would be different now, whether it would be worse or better, I couldn't tell. I agree with you on most of that. My question was to Amazon. It seems she thinks it's perfectly acceptable to wipe the Palestinians off the map and turn the entire area into a wasteland, but our fighting in Iraq is wrong on all counts. I find the double speak interesting, for lack of a better word. Well hey, I posted without thinking back when the earthquake hit China last year dissing the communist government and that they deserved the quake. I wish I hadn't said that. I'm not speaking for Amazon."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #661 January 16, 2009 QuoteHow can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? Uh.. because the fucking Iraqi's were not dropping rockets on my house. Going into Iraq was GOAT FUCK STUPID.. Every gerneral who told Rummy, Cheney and Bush that it was GOT FUCK STUPID was replaced with some BushBot who would tell them what they wanted to hear. Edited to add.. When someone ATTACKS you.... you hit them back with the best WAR that MONEY can buy. I applaud the efforts of the Israeli's to hit the people who attack them and refuse to make peace. The GOAT FUCK STUPID Arabs who have been doing this to Israel for the last 60 years and losing ground are being masochistic on a level unbecoming of a people that supposedly care about their families. Make Peace and stop being GOAT FUCK STUPID. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #662 January 16, 2009 Quote· Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity when rockets are fired from within the "cities, towns or villages" , they become a justified military target. QuoteAttack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings you mean building like the schools rigged with expolosives? or the ones used as bunkers? QuoteSeizure of, destruction or wilful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science again, I'm sure you mean the mosques who are used as storage area for rockets or the rocket assembly line in the university? I'm pretty sure some innocent targets have been hit, such is war. but you cannot claim these are non-military targets when Hamas clearly made them so O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites auburnguy 0 #663 January 16, 2009 +1 on the glass parking lot idea"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #664 January 17, 2009 Quote Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Fourth Geneva Convention, which I believe Israel signed in 1952. ARTICLE 47 of the Convention reads: "Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory." ARTICLE 49 (para. 6) reads: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." added by idrankwhat: Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #665 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuote Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Fourth Geneva Convention, which I believe Israel signed in 1952. ARTICLE 47 of the Convention reads: "Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory." ARTICLE 49 (para. 6) reads: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." added by idrankwhat: Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Straightforward concerning what? They're talking about the recent conflict and, so far, Israel is not transfering its own civilian population into the territory. They're also not claiming to annex the land. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #666 January 17, 2009 Quote Straightforward concerning what? Straightforward to the claim that Israel won the war and took the land so "too fucking bad". Quote They're talking about the recent conflict and, so far, Israel is not transfering its own civilian population into the territory. Not in Gaza anymore, but they are, and have been doing just that in the West Bank Quote They're also not claiming to annex the land. No, they don't claim that they're doing it because the US won't support an overt action like that. They just take it and we ignore it, the West Bank land grab that is. The Gaza component consists of different war crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #667 January 17, 2009 you know, I can quote the same Geneva convention and prove the exact opposite... first of all, i'm not sure this even applies: QuoteArticle 4: Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. first of all, I don't remember Hamas signing (or following) these rules. second, if you really want to go "legal", the 1967 war was with Egypt and Jordan. neither of them want Gaza or the west bank back (they can have it as far as i'm concerned). So, since it was "occupied" from the Egyptians/Jordanians, and they don't want it anymore... there was no "Palestine", remember? what you call "occupied" some will call "liberated", it changes the whole picture. but still, here are few more quotes from the same document... QuoteArticle 5 Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention QuoteThe protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. QuoteArticle 28 The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations QuoteArticle 2 No persons residing, in whatever capacity, in a hospital and safety zone shall perform any work, either within or without the zone, directly connected with military operations or the production of war material. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #668 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey'd rather have a sandwich I wonder how many sandwiches they could buy instead of one rocket... I'm sure its much easier to smuggle sandwiches through the hundreds of tunnels they've been digging than it is to smuggle rockets. for some reason you keep thinking that it is a given fact that Israel has to supply Gaza with anything. considering the fact that there is a hostile government that attacks Israel, any aid that is given (and it is given) should be praised... They have been smuggling food through the tunnels. It one reason why cooking oil has gone from 1.5 Shekles four weeks ago to 4 Shekles today in Gaza.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #669 January 17, 2009 QuoteNot directed at anyone in particular... You simply cannot defend the bombing on the UN building in Gaza. That Israeli strike destroyed what little supplies the UN has there in the way of food and medical supplies. I understand that the Israeli reasoning was that Hamas gunmen were shooting from the UN building and the Israeli army had no choice. ... Sorry, but that is Bullshit. I am ashamed that the only country not condemning this is the US. Its one of many war crimes that Israel is committing and will never be brought to justice for.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #670 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteNot directed at anyone in particular... You simply cannot defend the bombing on the UN building in Gaza. That Israeli strike destroyed what little supplies the UN has there in the way of food and medical supplies. I understand that the Israeli reasoning was that Hamas gunmen were shooting from the UN building and the Israeli army had no choice. ... Sorry, but that is Bullshit. I am ashamed that the only country not condemning this is the US. Its one of many war crimes that Israel is committing and will never be brought to justice for. In 1948, the UN approved a partition between Arab & Jewish sectors of British-ruled Palestine. The Arabs went to war, and the result was Israel's original borders - so in going to war, the Arabs screwed themselves out of what would otherwise have become an independent Palestinian Arab state, along with the territory of what would have been that state. Prior to the 1967 war, Gaza was ruled by (but never assimilated into) Egypt, and the West Bank was ruled by (but never assimilated into) Jordan. Those populations couldn't have become Egyptians or Jordanian citizens if even they wanted to. And to the extent they did not want to, there was basically no clamoring internationally, or in the UN, or in the rest of the Arab world, for Egypt and Jordan to allow Gaza and the West Bank to rule themselves as independent Palestinians. But that seems to never get written about. Even you, up-thread, acknowledged the consequences of poking the dog's bollocks too often. All wars are crimes, Jamile. The horrors of war do not exist in the absence of war. If Israel had simply been left alone to live in peace, there wouldn't have been the wars. But that horse left the gate decades ago. Natural consequences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tumbler 0 #671 January 17, 2009 QuoteSince your profile lists Saudi Arabia, tell me first, does Israel have a right to exist as a nation? If so, they have a right to defend themselves against rocket attacks. And if you're citing conventions of war, you must address Hamas using the shield of civilians to fight. I don't see wanton destruction of unarmed villages taking place. Yes, war crimes didn't exist before WWII. That was really the first major conflict where the idea of "total war" came about. Also in the past, when you lost a war, you lost territory. When you won, you took it. (See USSR at close of WWII for example - redefinition of Poland). Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Your really cool with two wrongs make it all OK, aren’t you? I am in Saudi, travel the ME extensively for work. I live in upstate NY, jump in Duanesburg. I am 42 and have 3 kids…. Born in New Jersey. I am certain that spending the time I have in Arab countries has opened my eyes to the people and their beliefs. 95% of them are no different than me. They worry about their kids going to college, their health, the economy and making money to retire. I have met one person I would think to be a radical Muslim; death to Israel and all that… No different than some of the radical people I met in the south that hate Obama because he is black or some of the radical people I met in northern Spain that wanted to secede from the rest of the country (ETA)… the things you learn by traveling the word. I don’t understand most of them, what happened to make them so full of hate, but it is the same mentality I see in many of the “parking lot” posts justifying what Israel is doing, and frankly the same as some of your posts. Personally, I think Israel has every right to exists as granted to them by the UN. They don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing, and peace would come much quicker as both sides would actually fear all out war. If Israel was REALLY worried about being attacked they wouldn’t act with such reckless abandon. They do so because they have the might and backing of the US military and political machine. Is Hamas wrong? No to ways about it. Morons to the nth degree and pressure should be brought from the world community to stop them from launching rockets into Israel. This does not give Israel a free pass to destroy everything and everyone there. That is simply illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #672 January 17, 2009 QuoteThey don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing I can tell you as an Israeli (and I think I represent most) that "wish" is not the right word here. the general feeling here is that we were dragged into Gaza by Hamas' rockets. we have no wish to be there. and regarding a "stronger arab power", if you look back, Egypt, together with Syria and Iraq (and a few others that joined in some of the past wars) were matched, if not stronger than Israel. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #673 January 18, 2009 Quote I am certain that spending the time I have in Arab countries has opened my eyes to the people and their beliefs. 95% of them are no different than me. They worry about their kids going to college, their health, the economy and making money to retire. I have met one person I would think to be a radical Muslim; death to Israel and all that… No different than some of the radical people I met in the south that hate Obama because he is black or some of the radical people I met in northern Spain that wanted to secede from the rest of the country (ETA)… the things you learn by traveling the word Its amazing when you base your opinion on actual experience and not episodes of 24. I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tumbler 0 #674 January 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing I can tell you as an Israeli (and I think I represent most) that "wish" is not the right word here. the general feeling here is that we were dragged into Gaza by Hamas' rockets. we have no wish to be there. and regarding a "stronger arab power", if you look back, Egypt, together with Syria and Iraq (and a few others that joined in some of the past wars) were matched, if not stronger than Israel. O I'm sorry but you can’t back this with factual history. There was a time, well before me, that Egypt was a world power, as was Rome, as was Spain, as was England depending on the point in time you wish to look at. Never, ever have the Arabs been able to "take on" Israel and the US, and they know better. The coalition that was formed in the 60s got their asses kicked by the US and Israeli forces (if you think it was just Israel we have another string to start) and the Israeli state was expanded and the root of the current day battle was germinated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #675 January 18, 2009 QuoteIts amazing when you base your opinion on actual experience and not episodes of 24. oh really,,, and how many times have you been to Gaza, Israel or the rest of the places you speak of so much with so much confidence? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Next Page 27 of 31 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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FallingOsh 0 #659 January 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote How can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? I'm only speaking for myself, but I think we should have gotten Saddam the first time around. Invading Iraq the 2nd time was a mistake. We should have focused solely on chasing Al Qaida in Afghanistan and trying to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and his co-horts. We almost got him at Tora Bora (name?). Taking the focus off of Afghanistan to invade Iraq just stretched us too thin. I don't know what else to say. I'm glad Saddam's not in power anymore and that he was executed, but it should have been done the first time around, just MHO. Of course, that alone probably would have changed the dynamics of the middle east and things would be different now, whether it would be worse or better, I couldn't tell. I agree with you on most of that. My question was to Amazon. It seems she thinks it's perfectly acceptable to wipe the Palestinians off the map and turn the entire area into a wasteland, but our fighting in Iraq is wrong on all counts. I find the double speak interesting, for lack of a better word. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #660 January 16, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote How can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? I'm only speaking for myself, but I think we should have gotten Saddam the first time around. Invading Iraq the 2nd time was a mistake. We should have focused solely on chasing Al Qaida in Afghanistan and trying to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and his co-horts. We almost got him at Tora Bora (name?). Taking the focus off of Afghanistan to invade Iraq just stretched us too thin. I don't know what else to say. I'm glad Saddam's not in power anymore and that he was executed, but it should have been done the first time around, just MHO. Of course, that alone probably would have changed the dynamics of the middle east and things would be different now, whether it would be worse or better, I couldn't tell. I agree with you on most of that. My question was to Amazon. It seems she thinks it's perfectly acceptable to wipe the Palestinians off the map and turn the entire area into a wasteland, but our fighting in Iraq is wrong on all counts. I find the double speak interesting, for lack of a better word. Well hey, I posted without thinking back when the earthquake hit China last year dissing the communist government and that they deserved the quake. I wish I hadn't said that. I'm not speaking for Amazon."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #661 January 16, 2009 QuoteHow can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? Uh.. because the fucking Iraqi's were not dropping rockets on my house. Going into Iraq was GOAT FUCK STUPID.. Every gerneral who told Rummy, Cheney and Bush that it was GOT FUCK STUPID was replaced with some BushBot who would tell them what they wanted to hear. Edited to add.. When someone ATTACKS you.... you hit them back with the best WAR that MONEY can buy. I applaud the efforts of the Israeli's to hit the people who attack them and refuse to make peace. The GOAT FUCK STUPID Arabs who have been doing this to Israel for the last 60 years and losing ground are being masochistic on a level unbecoming of a people that supposedly care about their families. Make Peace and stop being GOAT FUCK STUPID. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #662 January 16, 2009 Quote· Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity when rockets are fired from within the "cities, towns or villages" , they become a justified military target. QuoteAttack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings you mean building like the schools rigged with expolosives? or the ones used as bunkers? QuoteSeizure of, destruction or wilful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science again, I'm sure you mean the mosques who are used as storage area for rockets or the rocket assembly line in the university? I'm pretty sure some innocent targets have been hit, such is war. but you cannot claim these are non-military targets when Hamas clearly made them so O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites auburnguy 0 #663 January 16, 2009 +1 on the glass parking lot idea"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #664 January 17, 2009 Quote Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Fourth Geneva Convention, which I believe Israel signed in 1952. ARTICLE 47 of the Convention reads: "Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory." ARTICLE 49 (para. 6) reads: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." added by idrankwhat: Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #665 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuote Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Fourth Geneva Convention, which I believe Israel signed in 1952. ARTICLE 47 of the Convention reads: "Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory." ARTICLE 49 (para. 6) reads: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." added by idrankwhat: Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Straightforward concerning what? They're talking about the recent conflict and, so far, Israel is not transfering its own civilian population into the territory. They're also not claiming to annex the land. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #666 January 17, 2009 Quote Straightforward concerning what? Straightforward to the claim that Israel won the war and took the land so "too fucking bad". Quote They're talking about the recent conflict and, so far, Israel is not transfering its own civilian population into the territory. Not in Gaza anymore, but they are, and have been doing just that in the West Bank Quote They're also not claiming to annex the land. No, they don't claim that they're doing it because the US won't support an overt action like that. They just take it and we ignore it, the West Bank land grab that is. The Gaza component consists of different war crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #667 January 17, 2009 you know, I can quote the same Geneva convention and prove the exact opposite... first of all, i'm not sure this even applies: QuoteArticle 4: Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. first of all, I don't remember Hamas signing (or following) these rules. second, if you really want to go "legal", the 1967 war was with Egypt and Jordan. neither of them want Gaza or the west bank back (they can have it as far as i'm concerned). So, since it was "occupied" from the Egyptians/Jordanians, and they don't want it anymore... there was no "Palestine", remember? what you call "occupied" some will call "liberated", it changes the whole picture. but still, here are few more quotes from the same document... QuoteArticle 5 Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention QuoteThe protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. QuoteArticle 28 The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations QuoteArticle 2 No persons residing, in whatever capacity, in a hospital and safety zone shall perform any work, either within or without the zone, directly connected with military operations or the production of war material. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #668 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey'd rather have a sandwich I wonder how many sandwiches they could buy instead of one rocket... I'm sure its much easier to smuggle sandwiches through the hundreds of tunnels they've been digging than it is to smuggle rockets. for some reason you keep thinking that it is a given fact that Israel has to supply Gaza with anything. considering the fact that there is a hostile government that attacks Israel, any aid that is given (and it is given) should be praised... They have been smuggling food through the tunnels. It one reason why cooking oil has gone from 1.5 Shekles four weeks ago to 4 Shekles today in Gaza.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #669 January 17, 2009 QuoteNot directed at anyone in particular... You simply cannot defend the bombing on the UN building in Gaza. That Israeli strike destroyed what little supplies the UN has there in the way of food and medical supplies. I understand that the Israeli reasoning was that Hamas gunmen were shooting from the UN building and the Israeli army had no choice. ... Sorry, but that is Bullshit. I am ashamed that the only country not condemning this is the US. Its one of many war crimes that Israel is committing and will never be brought to justice for.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #670 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteNot directed at anyone in particular... You simply cannot defend the bombing on the UN building in Gaza. That Israeli strike destroyed what little supplies the UN has there in the way of food and medical supplies. I understand that the Israeli reasoning was that Hamas gunmen were shooting from the UN building and the Israeli army had no choice. ... Sorry, but that is Bullshit. I am ashamed that the only country not condemning this is the US. Its one of many war crimes that Israel is committing and will never be brought to justice for. In 1948, the UN approved a partition between Arab & Jewish sectors of British-ruled Palestine. The Arabs went to war, and the result was Israel's original borders - so in going to war, the Arabs screwed themselves out of what would otherwise have become an independent Palestinian Arab state, along with the territory of what would have been that state. Prior to the 1967 war, Gaza was ruled by (but never assimilated into) Egypt, and the West Bank was ruled by (but never assimilated into) Jordan. Those populations couldn't have become Egyptians or Jordanian citizens if even they wanted to. And to the extent they did not want to, there was basically no clamoring internationally, or in the UN, or in the rest of the Arab world, for Egypt and Jordan to allow Gaza and the West Bank to rule themselves as independent Palestinians. But that seems to never get written about. Even you, up-thread, acknowledged the consequences of poking the dog's bollocks too often. All wars are crimes, Jamile. The horrors of war do not exist in the absence of war. If Israel had simply been left alone to live in peace, there wouldn't have been the wars. But that horse left the gate decades ago. Natural consequences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tumbler 0 #671 January 17, 2009 QuoteSince your profile lists Saudi Arabia, tell me first, does Israel have a right to exist as a nation? If so, they have a right to defend themselves against rocket attacks. And if you're citing conventions of war, you must address Hamas using the shield of civilians to fight. I don't see wanton destruction of unarmed villages taking place. Yes, war crimes didn't exist before WWII. That was really the first major conflict where the idea of "total war" came about. Also in the past, when you lost a war, you lost territory. When you won, you took it. (See USSR at close of WWII for example - redefinition of Poland). Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Your really cool with two wrongs make it all OK, aren’t you? I am in Saudi, travel the ME extensively for work. I live in upstate NY, jump in Duanesburg. I am 42 and have 3 kids…. Born in New Jersey. I am certain that spending the time I have in Arab countries has opened my eyes to the people and their beliefs. 95% of them are no different than me. They worry about their kids going to college, their health, the economy and making money to retire. I have met one person I would think to be a radical Muslim; death to Israel and all that… No different than some of the radical people I met in the south that hate Obama because he is black or some of the radical people I met in northern Spain that wanted to secede from the rest of the country (ETA)… the things you learn by traveling the word. I don’t understand most of them, what happened to make them so full of hate, but it is the same mentality I see in many of the “parking lot” posts justifying what Israel is doing, and frankly the same as some of your posts. Personally, I think Israel has every right to exists as granted to them by the UN. They don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing, and peace would come much quicker as both sides would actually fear all out war. If Israel was REALLY worried about being attacked they wouldn’t act with such reckless abandon. They do so because they have the might and backing of the US military and political machine. Is Hamas wrong? No to ways about it. Morons to the nth degree and pressure should be brought from the world community to stop them from launching rockets into Israel. This does not give Israel a free pass to destroy everything and everyone there. That is simply illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #672 January 17, 2009 QuoteThey don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing I can tell you as an Israeli (and I think I represent most) that "wish" is not the right word here. the general feeling here is that we were dragged into Gaza by Hamas' rockets. we have no wish to be there. and regarding a "stronger arab power", if you look back, Egypt, together with Syria and Iraq (and a few others that joined in some of the past wars) were matched, if not stronger than Israel. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #673 January 18, 2009 Quote I am certain that spending the time I have in Arab countries has opened my eyes to the people and their beliefs. 95% of them are no different than me. They worry about their kids going to college, their health, the economy and making money to retire. I have met one person I would think to be a radical Muslim; death to Israel and all that… No different than some of the radical people I met in the south that hate Obama because he is black or some of the radical people I met in northern Spain that wanted to secede from the rest of the country (ETA)… the things you learn by traveling the word Its amazing when you base your opinion on actual experience and not episodes of 24. I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tumbler 0 #674 January 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing I can tell you as an Israeli (and I think I represent most) that "wish" is not the right word here. the general feeling here is that we were dragged into Gaza by Hamas' rockets. we have no wish to be there. and regarding a "stronger arab power", if you look back, Egypt, together with Syria and Iraq (and a few others that joined in some of the past wars) were matched, if not stronger than Israel. O I'm sorry but you can’t back this with factual history. There was a time, well before me, that Egypt was a world power, as was Rome, as was Spain, as was England depending on the point in time you wish to look at. Never, ever have the Arabs been able to "take on" Israel and the US, and they know better. The coalition that was formed in the 60s got their asses kicked by the US and Israeli forces (if you think it was just Israel we have another string to start) and the Israeli state was expanded and the root of the current day battle was germinated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #675 January 18, 2009 QuoteIts amazing when you base your opinion on actual experience and not episodes of 24. oh really,,, and how many times have you been to Gaza, Israel or the rest of the places you speak of so much with so much confidence? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Next Page 27 of 31 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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BillyVance 34 #660 January 16, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote How can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? I'm only speaking for myself, but I think we should have gotten Saddam the first time around. Invading Iraq the 2nd time was a mistake. We should have focused solely on chasing Al Qaida in Afghanistan and trying to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and his co-horts. We almost got him at Tora Bora (name?). Taking the focus off of Afghanistan to invade Iraq just stretched us too thin. I don't know what else to say. I'm glad Saddam's not in power anymore and that he was executed, but it should have been done the first time around, just MHO. Of course, that alone probably would have changed the dynamics of the middle east and things would be different now, whether it would be worse or better, I couldn't tell. I agree with you on most of that. My question was to Amazon. It seems she thinks it's perfectly acceptable to wipe the Palestinians off the map and turn the entire area into a wasteland, but our fighting in Iraq is wrong on all counts. I find the double speak interesting, for lack of a better word. Well hey, I posted without thinking back when the earthquake hit China last year dissing the communist government and that they deserved the quake. I wish I hadn't said that. I'm not speaking for Amazon."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #661 January 16, 2009 QuoteHow can you be so against the Iraq war and talk like this about other situations? Uh.. because the fucking Iraqi's were not dropping rockets on my house. Going into Iraq was GOAT FUCK STUPID.. Every gerneral who told Rummy, Cheney and Bush that it was GOT FUCK STUPID was replaced with some BushBot who would tell them what they wanted to hear. Edited to add.. When someone ATTACKS you.... you hit them back with the best WAR that MONEY can buy. I applaud the efforts of the Israeli's to hit the people who attack them and refuse to make peace. The GOAT FUCK STUPID Arabs who have been doing this to Israel for the last 60 years and losing ground are being masochistic on a level unbecoming of a people that supposedly care about their families. Make Peace and stop being GOAT FUCK STUPID. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #662 January 16, 2009 Quote· Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity when rockets are fired from within the "cities, towns or villages" , they become a justified military target. QuoteAttack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings you mean building like the schools rigged with expolosives? or the ones used as bunkers? QuoteSeizure of, destruction or wilful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science again, I'm sure you mean the mosques who are used as storage area for rockets or the rocket assembly line in the university? I'm pretty sure some innocent targets have been hit, such is war. but you cannot claim these are non-military targets when Hamas clearly made them so O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #663 January 16, 2009 +1 on the glass parking lot idea"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #664 January 17, 2009 Quote Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Fourth Geneva Convention, which I believe Israel signed in 1952. ARTICLE 47 of the Convention reads: "Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory." ARTICLE 49 (para. 6) reads: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." added by idrankwhat: Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #665 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuote Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Fourth Geneva Convention, which I believe Israel signed in 1952. ARTICLE 47 of the Convention reads: "Protected persons who are in occupied territory shall not be deprived, in any case or in any manner whatsoever, of the benefits of the present Convention by any change introduced, as the result of the occupation of a territory, into the institutions or government of the said territory, nor by any agreement concluded between the authorities of the occupied territories and the Occupying Power, nor by any annexation by the latter of the whole or part of the occupied territory." ARTICLE 49 (para. 6) reads: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." added by idrankwhat: Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Straightforward concerning what? They're talking about the recent conflict and, so far, Israel is not transfering its own civilian population into the territory. They're also not claiming to annex the land. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #666 January 17, 2009 Quote Straightforward concerning what? Straightforward to the claim that Israel won the war and took the land so "too fucking bad". Quote They're talking about the recent conflict and, so far, Israel is not transfering its own civilian population into the territory. Not in Gaza anymore, but they are, and have been doing just that in the West Bank Quote They're also not claiming to annex the land. No, they don't claim that they're doing it because the US won't support an overt action like that. They just take it and we ignore it, the West Bank land grab that is. The Gaza component consists of different war crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #667 January 17, 2009 you know, I can quote the same Geneva convention and prove the exact opposite... first of all, i'm not sure this even applies: QuoteArticle 4: Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. first of all, I don't remember Hamas signing (or following) these rules. second, if you really want to go "legal", the 1967 war was with Egypt and Jordan. neither of them want Gaza or the west bank back (they can have it as far as i'm concerned). So, since it was "occupied" from the Egyptians/Jordanians, and they don't want it anymore... there was no "Palestine", remember? what you call "occupied" some will call "liberated", it changes the whole picture. but still, here are few more quotes from the same document... QuoteArticle 5 Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention QuoteThe protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. QuoteArticle 28 The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations QuoteArticle 2 No persons residing, in whatever capacity, in a hospital and safety zone shall perform any work, either within or without the zone, directly connected with military operations or the production of war material. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #668 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey'd rather have a sandwich I wonder how many sandwiches they could buy instead of one rocket... I'm sure its much easier to smuggle sandwiches through the hundreds of tunnels they've been digging than it is to smuggle rockets. for some reason you keep thinking that it is a given fact that Israel has to supply Gaza with anything. considering the fact that there is a hostile government that attacks Israel, any aid that is given (and it is given) should be praised... They have been smuggling food through the tunnels. It one reason why cooking oil has gone from 1.5 Shekles four weeks ago to 4 Shekles today in Gaza.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #669 January 17, 2009 QuoteNot directed at anyone in particular... You simply cannot defend the bombing on the UN building in Gaza. That Israeli strike destroyed what little supplies the UN has there in the way of food and medical supplies. I understand that the Israeli reasoning was that Hamas gunmen were shooting from the UN building and the Israeli army had no choice. ... Sorry, but that is Bullshit. I am ashamed that the only country not condemning this is the US. Its one of many war crimes that Israel is committing and will never be brought to justice for.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #670 January 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteNot directed at anyone in particular... You simply cannot defend the bombing on the UN building in Gaza. That Israeli strike destroyed what little supplies the UN has there in the way of food and medical supplies. I understand that the Israeli reasoning was that Hamas gunmen were shooting from the UN building and the Israeli army had no choice. ... Sorry, but that is Bullshit. I am ashamed that the only country not condemning this is the US. Its one of many war crimes that Israel is committing and will never be brought to justice for. In 1948, the UN approved a partition between Arab & Jewish sectors of British-ruled Palestine. The Arabs went to war, and the result was Israel's original borders - so in going to war, the Arabs screwed themselves out of what would otherwise have become an independent Palestinian Arab state, along with the territory of what would have been that state. Prior to the 1967 war, Gaza was ruled by (but never assimilated into) Egypt, and the West Bank was ruled by (but never assimilated into) Jordan. Those populations couldn't have become Egyptians or Jordanian citizens if even they wanted to. And to the extent they did not want to, there was basically no clamoring internationally, or in the UN, or in the rest of the Arab world, for Egypt and Jordan to allow Gaza and the West Bank to rule themselves as independent Palestinians. But that seems to never get written about. Even you, up-thread, acknowledged the consequences of poking the dog's bollocks too often. All wars are crimes, Jamile. The horrors of war do not exist in the absence of war. If Israel had simply been left alone to live in peace, there wouldn't have been the wars. But that horse left the gate decades ago. Natural consequences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #671 January 17, 2009 QuoteSince your profile lists Saudi Arabia, tell me first, does Israel have a right to exist as a nation? If so, they have a right to defend themselves against rocket attacks. And if you're citing conventions of war, you must address Hamas using the shield of civilians to fight. I don't see wanton destruction of unarmed villages taking place. Yes, war crimes didn't exist before WWII. That was really the first major conflict where the idea of "total war" came about. Also in the past, when you lost a war, you lost territory. When you won, you took it. (See USSR at close of WWII for example - redefinition of Poland). Israel was attacked, it won, it took land. And if the losers are upset about that, too fucking bad. Your really cool with two wrongs make it all OK, aren’t you? I am in Saudi, travel the ME extensively for work. I live in upstate NY, jump in Duanesburg. I am 42 and have 3 kids…. Born in New Jersey. I am certain that spending the time I have in Arab countries has opened my eyes to the people and their beliefs. 95% of them are no different than me. They worry about their kids going to college, their health, the economy and making money to retire. I have met one person I would think to be a radical Muslim; death to Israel and all that… No different than some of the radical people I met in the south that hate Obama because he is black or some of the radical people I met in northern Spain that wanted to secede from the rest of the country (ETA)… the things you learn by traveling the word. I don’t understand most of them, what happened to make them so full of hate, but it is the same mentality I see in many of the “parking lot” posts justifying what Israel is doing, and frankly the same as some of your posts. Personally, I think Israel has every right to exists as granted to them by the UN. They don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing, and peace would come much quicker as both sides would actually fear all out war. If Israel was REALLY worried about being attacked they wouldn’t act with such reckless abandon. They do so because they have the might and backing of the US military and political machine. Is Hamas wrong? No to ways about it. Morons to the nth degree and pressure should be brought from the world community to stop them from launching rockets into Israel. This does not give Israel a free pass to destroy everything and everyone there. That is simply illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #672 January 17, 2009 QuoteThey don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing I can tell you as an Israeli (and I think I represent most) that "wish" is not the right word here. the general feeling here is that we were dragged into Gaza by Hamas' rockets. we have no wish to be there. and regarding a "stronger arab power", if you look back, Egypt, together with Syria and Iraq (and a few others that joined in some of the past wars) were matched, if not stronger than Israel. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #673 January 18, 2009 Quote I am certain that spending the time I have in Arab countries has opened my eyes to the people and their beliefs. 95% of them are no different than me. They worry about their kids going to college, their health, the economy and making money to retire. I have met one person I would think to be a radical Muslim; death to Israel and all that… No different than some of the radical people I met in the south that hate Obama because he is black or some of the radical people I met in northern Spain that wanted to secede from the rest of the country (ETA)… the things you learn by traveling the word Its amazing when you base your opinion on actual experience and not episodes of 24. I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #674 January 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey don’t have the right to kill and bomb as they wish and as they currently do. If there was a stronger Arab power in the region I am certain Isreal would not do what they are doing I can tell you as an Israeli (and I think I represent most) that "wish" is not the right word here. the general feeling here is that we were dragged into Gaza by Hamas' rockets. we have no wish to be there. and regarding a "stronger arab power", if you look back, Egypt, together with Syria and Iraq (and a few others that joined in some of the past wars) were matched, if not stronger than Israel. O I'm sorry but you can’t back this with factual history. There was a time, well before me, that Egypt was a world power, as was Rome, as was Spain, as was England depending on the point in time you wish to look at. Never, ever have the Arabs been able to "take on" Israel and the US, and they know better. The coalition that was formed in the 60s got their asses kicked by the US and Israeli forces (if you think it was just Israel we have another string to start) and the Israeli state was expanded and the root of the current day battle was germinated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #675 January 18, 2009 QuoteIts amazing when you base your opinion on actual experience and not episodes of 24. oh really,,, and how many times have you been to Gaza, Israel or the rest of the places you speak of so much with so much confidence? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
