Gun [Carrying] Laws

[JohnRich 4]

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Sounds like you'd make a good range officer.

Thank you. Actually, I AM an NRA certified range safety officer, for my private gun club: http://www.bayourifles.org/

[JohnRich 4]

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Either you trust people not to be stupid, or you don't.

Many people ARE stupid. Therefore, you exercise safety precautions to make things as safe as possible to protect against that stupidity. It would be stupid not to assume that some people are stupid.

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In the Army we carried weapons locked and loaded all the time and never had an AD. Therefore, if the guy uses his head, there is little chance of a carried weapon firing.

Key words: "if the guy uses his head". Many people don't. I don't want to get shot dead because some stupid guy didn't use his head.

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Load them only when you're actually ready to shoot, when the cease fire has ended, and the all-clear given.

Then I suspect you don't trust people to carry a loaded gun either.
You have a double standard showing.

You suspect wrong, and your eyes are seeing doubles that don't exist.

[JohnRich 4]

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Me pulling out a weapon to shoot it, or put it on the table is a FAR cry from giving it to you to look at. You should know that those two instances are totally different.

What was that about a double standard?

Oh, so it's okay to have two standards, when the circumstances are different. I see.

It's funny how you recognize that for your own example, but not for mine...

[Ron 7]

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Many people ARE stupid. Therefore, you exercise safety precautions to make things as safe as possible to protect against that stupidity. It would be stupid not to assume that some people are stupid.

And yet as your example shows, no amount of blind rules will prevent dumb people from doing dumb things.

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Key words: "if the guy uses his head". Many people don't. I don't want to get shot dead because some stupid guy didn't use his head.

Then don't hang around people you don't trust.

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You suspect wrong, and your eyes are seeing doubles that don't exist.

You think it is perfectly fine to carry a loaded weapon into a WalMart, but not from your car to a range.

That is a clear double standard.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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So given the choice of being around idiots with a lot of rules....Or heads up people and few rules....Which do you think is safer?

Not everyone can afford to enjoy the benefits of a private gun club, full of only people who have been vetted as "safe".

Public ranges draw all types of people, both experienced and inexperienced. Those public ranges are necessary to give people a safe place to shoot, and to learn to be safe.

In my opinion, you're wrong to think that the rules for public ranges should be the same as those for private ranges where everyone knows each other.

When some stranger walks up next to me at a public range, I have no idea whether or not he's safe. Therefore, the safety rules are important, and it's wise for everyone to follow them.

Compare this debate to skydiving. Do we always get to choose what skydivers are on the plane with us? Nope. Some of them are rookies. Some are high-speed swoopers. We can't just assume that everyone is safe and knows what they're doing in the landing pattern. We have to watch out for other traffic, and everyone is supposed to follow a pattern, for safety. Shooting at public ranges is no different. Certain rules have to be followed because not everyone is experienced enough to be trusted to always do the right thing.

At any rate, I've said my piece now, and I'm not going to argue with you any more.

[Ron 7]

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In my opinion, you're wrong to think that the rules for public ranges should be the same as those for private ranges where everyone knows each other.

I never said that. That is you trying to put words in my mouth that were never uttered.

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When some stranger walks up next to me at a public range, I have no idea whether or not he's safe. Therefore, the safety rules are important, and it's wise for everyone to follow them.

Never said anything against that either.

I said that blind rules do not stop stupid people from making mistakes and that it is much safer to be around people you trust.

You ignored that and went on some tangent that you could argue.

And you STILL think it is just fine for some guy with minimal training to carry a loaded weapon into a Walmart but are afraid of them carrying their weapon from the car to a firing line.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[downwardspiral 0]

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This conversation reminds me of aerial gunnery school in the USMC

Well, do you consider it wise to lean against a trigger of a weapon you didn't clear and make safe?

And I assume there was some rule about clearing a weapon that he just didn't follow?

So it just shows that rules are only as good as the people that follow them.

So given the choice of being around idiots with a lot of rules....Or heads up people and few rules....Which do you think is safer?

How about heads up people who understand what the rules are for? And where do I find this shooting utopia of heads up people?.

You're acting like a lack of rules automatically makes for heads up people which is entirely untrue. Or is it heads up people don't need rules so it's unnecessary to subject them to the rules? You honestly have me very confused about what your point is.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Ron 7]

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How about heads up people who understand what the rules are for? And where do I find this shooting utopia of heads up people?.

Private ranges that don't let yahoos shoot there.

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You're acting like a lack of rules automatically makes for heads up people which is entirely untrue

No. That's what you think you read, not what I wrote. Not at all what I think.

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Or is it heads up people don't need rules so it's unnecessary to subject them to the rules?

Better. Try reading this statement again "So given the choice of being around idiots with a lot of rules....Or heads up people and few rules....Which do you think is safer?"

More like smart, well trained, disciplined people don't need a long list of rules.

Don't flag a person.
Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy.
Don't shoot in directions that are not 100% clear.

Instead you have ranges that don't let you shoot and move. They don't let you shoot from the prone or on your back. They don't let you do tactical draws. All good training.

They don't let these things happen since some number of shooters would shoot themselves or someone else. So they make rules against them...They dumb down the group for the few that are dangerous and maybe should not even be there with a weapon.

You think rules make you safe? Idiots forget the rules and do stupid things anyway. Training makes you safe. Staying away from the yahoos makes you safe. A list of written rules does not make you safe. That is my point.

I am sorry if you do not get my point.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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This is where you're confusing me. You say rules suck then you list a bunch of rules.

Don't flag a person.
Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy.
Don't shoot in directions that are not 100% clear.

But then as you explain further I begin to understand. So we do need rules but too many rules suck. THAT I agree with. Now I am going to go cry because there no ranges like what you're describing around me since I live in southern California.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Ron 7]

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This is where you're confusing me. You say rules suck then you list a bunch of rules.

I don't consider three to be a bunch.

And they are not "official" rules anyway. They really boil down to just one:

1. Remember that you have a tool that will kill if you are stupid...Don't be stupid, think safe.

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Now I am going to go cry because there no ranges like what you're describing around me since I live in southern California.

Well if you are ever my way, let me know. I have access to a few private ranges and some title II items.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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lol which is where exactly?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[birdlike 0]

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Many people ARE stupid. Therefore, you exercise safety precautions to make things as safe as possible to protect against that stupidity. It would be stupid not to assume that some people are stupid.

And yet as your example shows, no amount of blind rules will prevent dumb people from doing dumb things.

A rule at a shooting range that you may not walk around with guns in a certain condition, or touch them at certain times, give the RSO the authority to step in and prevent a disaster by allowing him to pre-emptively lock down certain scenarios that are known to lead later to accidents.

For example, if an RSO sees someone carrying a gun with the slide or bolt in battery, he can stop them right then, with the authority and call to do so (because just doing that is against the rules) and may find that the gun was (properly) empty, or may find that it was loaded and an accident waiting to happen.

This is not about not trusting people. We have trust in them in the appropriate time and place. In other times and places, we "trust but verify." (We trust them to have and use guns, but verify that they're doing it safely.)

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You think it is perfectly fine to carry a loaded weapon into a WalMart, but not from your car to a range.

That is a clear double standard.

WTF?! Did I not just cover this?! The gun carried into Walmart is HOLSTERED, and NO ONE IS FUCKING AROUND WITH IT. The gun at the range COULD be LOADED at a time when it is not holstered or encased, and various things could actuate the trigger while it is not pointed in an appropriate and safe direction.

As we've already said, NO double standard.

What you actually should be comparing this range rule to would be if a concealed weapon licensee took out his CCW and began pawing it needlessly. He would be stopped, just like the guy at the range would be--hopefully in time to prevent a negligent discharge, just like at the range.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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Better. Try reading this statement again "So given the choice of being around idiots with a lot of rules....Or heads up people and few rules....Which do you think is safer?"

More like smart, well trained, disciplined people don't need a long list of rules.

Don't flag a person.
Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy.
Don't shoot in directions that are not 100% clear.

Instead you have ranges that don't let you shoot and move. They don't let you shoot from the prone or on your back. They don't let you do tactical draws. All good training.

They don't let these things happen since some number of shooters would shoot themselves or someone else. So they make rules against them...They dumb down the group for the few that are dangerous and maybe should not even be there with a weapon.

You think rules make you safe? Idiots forget the rules and do stupid things anyway. Training makes you safe. Staying away from the yahoos makes you safe. A list of written rules does not make you safe. That is my point.

I am sorry if you do not get my point.

Actually, though the post was not aimed at me (and thanks for not muzzle-sweeping me with it , I agree fully with your views here.

It is much the same (to me) as the way I trust people who are not religious more than I trust people who are religious. The non-religious people, if they are doing right, are doing right because they have been taught, and agree that doing right is the right thing to do -- the thing that makes the most people safest and happiest. They do it because they believe in doing right.

The religious people, on the other hand, I have no reason to believe are doing right for any reason other than that they fervently believe that if they break the rules and do wrong, punishment awaits them.

Whom do you trust more, the guy who does right even when doing wrong would bring no punishment? Or the guy who does not do wrong because he's terribly afraid of the consequences that the invisible man in the sky will dish out?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire