nerdgirl 0
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QuoteThe question I’m interested in relates to the assertion that it was joint operation -- i.e., “were rescued from the FARC today by Col/US Forces” --against a non-state actor (terrorist group) entrenched in a non-governed area. Haven't found any citations supporting that and was hoping someone could point toward something. That's more than sharing electrons.
Might I suggest that you read between the lines if you want the answer to that question, as I doubt you will find it in the media plainly stated as such, for obvious reasons.
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nerdgirl 0
QuoteQuoteThe question I’m interested in relates to the assertion that it was joint operation -- i.e., “were rescued from the FARC today by Col/US Forces” --against a non-state actor (terrorist group) entrenched in a non-governed area. Haven't found any citations supporting that and was hoping someone could point toward something. That's more than sharing electrons.
Might I suggest that you read between the lines if you want the answer to that question, as I doubt you will find it in the media plainly stated as such, for obvious reasons.
What are those "obvious reasons"?
(Other than perhaps the one that the Pentagon spokesman, SOUTHCOM spokesman, the Colombian Defense Minister, etc cite.)
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
TheAnvil 0
Perhaps because this is a major coup for Senor Uribe and the public admission of US involvement would undermine him with certain segments of the Colombian populace. Having him viewed as a strong leader by the Colombians is definitely a good thing for the US.
The guess of an engineer who reads a bit. I wonder what Senor Chavez thinks of this? 
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
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Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
nerdgirl 0
QuotePerhaps because this is a major coup for Senor Uribe and the public admission of US involvement would undermine him with certain segments of the Colombian populace. Having him viewed as a strong leader by the Colombians is definitely a good thing for the US.
That strikes me as a reasonable hypothesis.
One could also speculate that it's related to Congressional prohibitions as part of Plan Colombia, which impose explicit limitations on the number of US military members and defense contractors that are legally permitted there (
Otoh, we have "FARC leaders were paid millions to free hostages":
"Leaders of the Colombian FARC rebel movement were paid millions of dollars to free Colombian politician Ingrid Betancourt and 14 other hostages, Swiss radio said on Friday, quoting 'a reliable source'.While citations are available for that scenario, it strikes me as a less plausible hypothesis. Receipt of such a large ransom would be a propoganda/information operations victory for FARC. and it's reasonable to expect they would 'advertise' such, as they have in the past. (Although Iranian tv and news is giving that scenario credence.
"The 15 hostages released on Wednesday by the Colombian army 'were in reality ransomed for a high price, and the whole operation afterwards was a set-up.'
"Saying the United States, which had three of its citizens among those freed, was behind the deal, it put the price of the ransom at some $20 million." [/url]
) VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteThe question I’m interested in relates to the assertion that it was joint operation -- i.e., “were rescued from the FARC today by Col/US Forces” --against a non-state actor (terrorist group) entrenched in a non-governed area. Haven't found any citations supporting that and was hoping someone could point toward something. That's more than sharing electrons.
Might I suggest that you read between the lines if you want the answer to that question, as I doubt you will find it in the media plainly stated as such, for obvious reasons.
What are those "obvious reasons"?
(Other than perhaps the one that the Pentagon spokesman, SOUTHCOM spokesman, the Colombian Defense Minister, etc cite.)
VR/Marg
LouDiamond has a better view than I do, but I believe some of the obvious reasons are, that US SF units help train the Colombian army and special operations units, and that would be a direct involvement. Also, the use of US satellite imagery undoubtedly was provided with US tech analysis and liaison.
The other factors have been mentioned, I think this is a good boon for Colombia's president, and provides a read needle in the eye of Chavez, whose support of FARC is perhaps not so helpful after all. US involvement need not be cited all that strongly.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
OK sheep. We have known were they were for quite some time. A timely release/rescue? More fuckin USA propaganda bullshit.QuoteIngrid Betancourt and 3 other Americans were rescued from the FARC today by Col/US Forces. They have been held as hostages since 2002, welcome home.
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'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
Amazon 7
QuoteShould be some valuable counterinsurgency (COIN) lessons to be learned.
And the less the world knows about that is probably the best policy to follow.
nerdgirl 0
QuoteI believe some of the obvious reasons are, that US SF units help train the Colombian army and special operations units, and that would be a direct involvement. Also, the use of US satellite imagery undoubtedly was provided with US tech analysis and liaison.
Whether the US is involved in military training the Colombians (see the US SOUTHCOM article I cited), engages in intelligence sharing (see the SOUTHCOM and Pentagon spokemen statements I quoted), or received briefings are neither the issue nor in dispute. One can speculate both reasonable (as Vinny and I did, along with ones I've hinted at throughout the thread) as well as unreasonable scenarios.
The issue goes back to request for citations related to the thus-far unsubstantiated assertion that it was joint operation -- i.e., “were rescued from the FARC today by Col/US Forces."
Perhaps a more productive approach: why or on what basis do you (general, non-specific you) assert that it was not "100% Colombian" "planned, led, and executed" (to combine quotes/statements from MOD Santos and the PNT spokesman, respectively)?
If it was 100% Colombian operation that is a strong indicator of success for training and investment (“more than $4 billion in military aid since 2000”) by the US to enable an ally to conduct its own domestic security operations with minimal US involvement, i.e., the goal of training is that the trainee can do the job without the instructor.
And the question relates to US success infiltrating an entrenched non-state actor and working with the indigenous military to execute a complicated operation. US intelligence community and defense involvement would be a positive indicator from that perspective. One can't publicly cite this as an example of that unless one has a publicly available citation, which I can't find & no one has (thus far) provided, altho' it has been asserted (which prompted the initial query).
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
TheAnvil 0
I hope the Swiss source is incorrect. I would hate to think any $$ was paid to those sonsofbitches. Not standard policy for US or France.
Sarkozy came into office stating Betancourt's release was a priority for him, and even though France purportedly had little to do with the hostage extraction, it's undoubtedly a big thing for him at home. Perhaps the Swiss don't like him and have stirred up such doubt to slime him in some manner? Not sure.
I really hope it WAS a 100% Colombian operation.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
* Colombia is the fifth largest recipient of US aid - If you take out the middle east for obvious reasons Colombia moves up
* Narcotics trafficking is pervasive at every level of the Colombian government
* By 1999 there was one massacre a day carried out in Colombia by the para-military the direct recipient of US aid
* International narco trafficking is estimated at around 4 trillion US dollars
* US chemical and biological attacks on Colombian peasants extends back decades
... regardless FARC are the worst element of the Colombian society! 
nerdgirl 0
More details:
From today’s NPR Morning Edition U.S. Team Aided Colombia Hostage Rescue:
From today’s Washington Post: “In Colombia Jungle Ruse, U.S. Played A Quiet Role: Ambassador Spotlights Years of Aid, Training:
FoxNews does not appear to have anything posted yet regarding Amb Brownfield’s comments.
As more information emerges, the importance of enabling unconventional thinking in countering unconventional, asymmetric adversaries is the underlying message … along with the value of US foreign investment, both military and non-military, in enabling foreign domestic governments (which includes their militaries) to counter those unconventional asymmetric threats (aka the "So What? Who Cares?).
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
From today’s NPR Morning Edition U.S. Team Aided Colombia Hostage Rescue:
“The U.S. Embassy in Bogota has provided details about U.S. participation in the effort to rescue three Americans along with Ingrid Betancourt and 11 other hostages held by FARC guerrillas in Colombia. The U.S. created a 100-member team of intelligence analysts and special forces who helped train Colombian forces and helped track the FARC guerrillas.”
From today’s Washington Post: “In Colombia Jungle Ruse, U.S. Played A Quiet Role: Ambassador Spotlights Years of Aid, Training:
“For months before a group of disguised Colombian soldiers carried out a daring rescue of three American citizens and a prominent Colombian politician from a guerrilla camp, a team of U.S. Special Forces joined elite Colombian troops tracking the hostages across formidable jungle terrain in the country's southern fringes.The article continues to discuss – very generally – some more traditional operations that had been planned and why not pursued.
“The U.S. team was supported by a vast intelligence-gathering operation based in the U.S. Embassy in Bogota, far to the north. There, a special 100-person unit made up of Special Forces planners, hostage negotiators and intelligence analysts worked to keep track of the hostages. They also awaited the moment when they would spring into action to help Colombian forces carry out a rescue.
“That moment came in June after a Colombian army major hatched an unconventional plan. Further developed by Colombian intelligence agents, the plan abandoned the idea of a military raid and relied instead on tricking a rebel group notorious for killing hostages into simply handing over 15 of their most prominent captives.
“As Colombian planners made last-minute preparations June 30, the U.S. ambassador in Bogota, William R. Brownfield, briefed Vice President Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other Bush administration officials in a videoconference call. Two days later, Colombian commandos scooped up the Americans, Betancourt and 11 Colombian soldiers and policemen, receiving praise from around the world for a plan deftly executed.
“’I was pressed fairly hard, as I would expect to be, as I would hope to be, to justify, to explain my recommendations, to offer the basis for my having reached the conclusions that I'd reached,’ [US Amb] Brownfield said in an interview in his office. ‘At the end of the day, I felt that I had been forced to offer up a very clear explanation as to how all of us down here -- Team Bogota -- had come up with this particular set of positions [to support the Colombian plan].’
“The Bush administration had an understanding with Colombia's government that any operation to rescue the Americans required U.S. approval, meaning an American rejection of the plan could have scuttled it. But Brownfield and a team of 15 American strategists -- including intelligence agents and military officers -- thought the Colombian plan could succeed.
“‘This mission was a Colombian concept, a Colombian plan, a Colombian training operation, then a Colombian operation,’ [US Amb] Brownfield said in an interview Monday in which he recounted details of the U.S. role. ‘We, however, had been working with them more than five years on every single element that came to pass that pulled off this operation, as well as the small bits that we did on this operation.’
“U.S. troops did not participate directly in the operation, but behind the rescue in a jungle clearing stood years of clandestine American work. It included the deployment of elite U.S. Special Forces in areas where rebel fighters roam, a vast intelligence-gathering operation against the guerrillas, and training programs for Colombian troops and communications specialists in how to intercept and subvert rebel communications.
“The U.S. assistance to Colombia, part of more than $5 billion in aid since 2000, has come into sharp focus this year as an intense military campaign weakened the FARC, killing seasoned commanders and prompting 1,500 fighters and urban operatives to desert.
“Colombian officials have said the American assistance, especially in intercepting FARC communications, has been essential. And Sergio Jaramillo, vice minister of defense, said the Americans have been instrumental in creating ‘a professional Special Forces culture’ in Colombia's elite jungle units.
“Although the Americans and Colombians work together closely, Colombia's Defense Ministry does not always tell the American Embassy what plans are in the works. U.S. officials discovered on their own that a rescue plan was taking shape.”
FoxNews does not appear to have anything posted yet regarding Amb Brownfield’s comments.
As more information emerges, the importance of enabling unconventional thinking in countering unconventional, asymmetric adversaries is the underlying message … along with the value of US foreign investment, both military and non-military, in enabling foreign domestic governments (which includes their militaries) to counter those unconventional asymmetric threats (aka the "So What? Who Cares?).
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Thanks to the two folks who sent links to media accounts noting diplomatic briefings. If an ally conducts an operation that directly impacts US civilians held illegally in a foreign state, briefing the Ambassador (the representative of the USG in that state) is SOP. The President (US) was briefed too.
The question I’m interested in relates to the assertion that it was joint operation -- i.e., “were rescued from the FARC today by Col/US Forces” --against a non-state actor (terrorist group) entrenched in a non-governed area. Haven't found any citations supporting that and was hoping someone could point toward something. That's more than sharing electrons.
From 03Jul08 State Dept Daily Press briefing:
From Defenselink.mil story (03Jul08) “Colombian Military Rescues Hostages, Including U.S. Contractors”:
From the previously mentioned interview with Colombia’s Minister of Defense Juan Manuel Santos (their version of SecDef). He implies that the origin of the idea came from some relatively low level Colombian military intelligence personnel: Santos account is not at all dissonant with the referenced statements of Amb Brownfield or the AP article (posted on yahoo).
An article from AP (04Jul08) that gets slightly different editing whether read on CNN or FOX. From FOXNews.com:
On Friday, the Colombian government released a video of the hostage rescue, available via BBC online, it claims partially to clarify who led and executed the operation.
The “So What? Who Cares?” (imo) w/r/t the specific question relates to US success infiltrating an entrenched non-state actor and working with the indigenous military to execute a complicated operation. US intelligence community and defense involvement would be a positive indicator.
The command and control within the FARC has clearly been disrupted (in order to execute such an operation). How was it done? What lessons can be learned and applied to other non-state actors in non-governed areas, e.g., Pakistan’s Northwest Provinces. 50 years of Al Qa’eda in NW Pakistan is not something I want.
At the same time, if the operation was executed without US military involvement that is a very positive indicator for Colombia *and* for the long term training efforts and investment (“more than $4 billion in military aid since 2000”) by the US to enable an ally to conduct its own domestic security operations with minimal US involvement, i.e., the goal of training is that the trainee can do the job without the instructor. E.g., US SOUTHCOM posted a story 02Jul08 on “U.S. Soldiers Help Colombia Transform its Enlisted Ranks” on successful NCO training since 2003.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
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