crozby 0
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beowulf 1
ahhh the classic don't question god because we don't and can't understand him.
jcd11235 0
Quoteevil was created to serve a perfect purpose, one we could never understand fully.
Good from one perspective is evil from another perspective, generally.
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QuoteQuoteevil was created to serve a perfect purpose, one we could never understand fully.
Good from one perspective is evil from another perspective, generally.
Yes, deception takes discernment.
"We didn't start the fire"
maadmax 0
--Here's where the trouble started. The only difference between perfect and not-so-perfect human would be the way they execute their free will. So how could you explain why perfect human Eva executed her free will in a very wrong way which is basically 100% incompatible with perfection?
I have no idea why the neutralization of sin took the path it did. I just know that I am a sinner, and I needed help.
--My point is that the moment God created Eva he knew EXACTLY what she will do, and he knew exactly that she will use her free will to eat this apple. And he did nothing to correct problems with his creation, even though it would be very easy. He did nothing.
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Again, another good question, one in which I have asked myself. My best guess at this time is that He originally created our souls perfect/sinless, with the attribute of free will. Free will allows us to respond to God's Truth or to chose self deification and become creators of our own reality. My understanding is that self deificaiton is the progenitor of evil thought and acts.
--Your God actually created this consequence of evil act. To neutralize it he just needed to forgive Eva, that's it. But what was done looked more like my kid was told not to eat candy, but ate it. Then to forgive him we would "create" another kid, and let him die in a horrible death. Sounds stupid? It is.
I have no idea why the neutralization of sin took the path it did. I just know that I am a sinner, and I needed help.
--My point is that the moment God created Eva he knew EXACTLY what she will do, and he knew exactly that she will use her free will to eat this apple. And he did nothing to correct problems with his creation, even though it would be very easy. He did nothing.
Very good question. Again one I have asked. I don't claim to have the answer. I have equated "eating the forbidden fruit" with making the free will choice to become like God and know how to create good and evil. From my study of the Bible it was not God's intention for us to use this knowledge, even though it was a choice. The spiritual quest before us now is to unlearn that knowledge. Someday I hope to know why.
maadmax 0
You missed my point. Chemistry is the wrong place to look if one wants to understand gravity. Likewise, if you want to understand why time doesn't go backwards, you should look at Thermodynamics, not General Relativity. "Entropy must increase and not dissipate"
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I got your point, it is similar to extrapolating scientific discoveries on how we got here to explain why we are here.
Your post also provided me with another insight. Hip hop is not half bad when produced with understandable lyrics and intelligent content.
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jcd11235 0
QuoteYour post also provided me with another insight. Hip hop is not half bad when produced with understandable lyrics and intelligent content.
Not available at Wal-Mart or anywhere VeggieTales is soldMath tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
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Again, another good question, one in which I have asked myself. My best guess at this time is that He originally created our souls perfect/sinless, with the attribute of free will. Free will allows us to respond to God's Truth or to chose self deification and become creators of our own reality.
In other words, the God created people perfect, but with ability to do stupid things. And the God knew this ability WILL be used (because he's omniscient). So the God created people, who - he knew - would not be perfect, and now he's basically punishing everyone just because of this?
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I have no idea why the neutralization of sin took the path it did. I just know that I am a sinner, and I needed help.
So you believe a reasonable way to deal with kid's sin is to "create" another kid, and let him die?
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Very good question. Again one I have asked. I don't claim to have the answer. I have equated "eating the forbidden fruit" with making the free will choice to become like God and know how to create good and evil. From my study of the Bible it was not God's intention for us to use this knowledge, even though it was a choice.
In other words, the God provided Eve with an option he didn't like her to take - but as soon as he created her he knew she would take this option. And didn't change anything (like removing the tree, or making it cactus). So he basically condoned this behavior, and then punished everyone because of this?
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Humans are far from perfect. We have skeletons ill suited to walking upright, joints that wear out and don't regenerate, eye lenses that harden and cease to focus, blood vessels in the heart that are prone to blockage, an appendix with no useful function that is prone to life threatening infections that is just a carryover from other creatures. Pretty poor job for an omniscient omnipotent creator.
I also found it funny that there are only two mammal species are unable to synthesize vitamin C - a homo sapiens and Guinea pig (Cavia porcellus). And it's not like useless thing - scurvy hurt a lot of seamen before the role of vitamin C was established.
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Lindsey 0
well, He figured we'd eat more fruit.
edited to add: and DIRT 
for the B12
linz--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
maadmax 0
Your questions demonstrate a fair degree of insight. More than your previous posts would indicate. Did you come up with these on your own or did you read them somewhere? Even though they are good questions you are basing them on interpretations that I don't entirely agree with. To pursue this line of thought we would have to back track to a point where we could agree on the premise information. And maybe talk about one question at a time.
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Quoteahhh the classic don't question god because we don't and can't understand him.
No, question God, search, pine, do whatever you will, but the truth is that understanding changes through perception. Anyone can look at something different than someone else, and some can even find good in everything, but understanding why takes faith. That is, if your going to find something good out of what you perceive as evil, your going to need a little faith and trust.
We know that God allowed sin, becasue the bible says that God created satan to work havoc and destroy, but we also know that without sin we would not have Grace, just like without death, we would not have life. Everything changes through perception, the question is, do you take mans perception, or Gods? If you take Gods, then you trust that all things work for the good. If everything is inevitable anyway, a man who trusts has peace even in the roughest times.
Look at Jesus. He knew he was going to be crucified, yet he still kept his peace through trust. Yes he was scared, he was a man afterall, but through his trust in Gods love (which is what he was/is), he kept peace in his heart. The love he released on the cross carries with it a deep peace. So deep, the world doesnt really understand it at all because in order to recieve grace, you have to be guilty of sin.
"We didn't start the fire"
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well, He figured we'd eat more fruit.
Fruits are not practical for long-term journey over sea. I believe they used something like pickled cabbage - easy to store (barrels), and rich of useful stuff.
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edited to add: and DIRTfor the B12
Not to mention the God obviously hates handicapped people, especially amputees. A water lizard (Triturus) can regenerate even an eye, not to mention body parts. God definitely loves them more than he loves humans.
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Your questions demonstrate a fair degree of insight. More than your previous posts would indicate.
It depends on the opponent. It doesn't make any sense to elaborate my insights with an opponent who cannot tell me whether the God is omnipotent or not, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a serious discussion with an opponent who does not answer your questions, but plays with words and sermons instead (very typical with Christians). In your case you answered the question, thus we could now discuss the issue.
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Did you come up with these on your own or did you read them somewhere?
I came up with them on my own, but I don't believe they are unique. The contradiction between omniscience and having expectations is obvious. Same as contradiction between omnipotence and having desires.
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Even though they are good questions you are basing them on interpretations that I don't entirely agree with. To pursue this line of thought we would have to back track to a point where we could agree on the premise information. And maybe talk about one question at a time.
Ok, let's start with omniscience. That's why I asked whether you, or another opponent, believe whether the God is omniscient. To avoid playing with words I even made an explicit definition - that the God knows everything right now (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)?
This is a tough question, because if you answer "yes", then a lot of things in the Bible do not make ANY sense. An omniscient creature does not have expectations, since you only have expectations when you do not KNOW how things will work. An omniscient creature does not need to wait until an atheist dies to "give him a chance to follow Christ" - it already knows whether this specific atheist will come to Christ or not. An omniscient creature knows who exactly will be sinner, and who will not be - and this includes everyone, including the people who hasn't born yet - so it doesn't need to wait until the Judgment Day. And that's only part of it.
But if you answer "no", meaning the God does not know the future? First it would contradict with omnipotence, since the omnipotent creature should be able to make itself omniscient (and it would make sense). Second, this means that the God is restricted by the time at least, and the next question is - what else is the God restricted with? Third, it would invalidate all Biblical prophecies - now Christians say it's the God who predicted all those things being omniscient. But if you accept the God being not omniscient, those prophecies should belong to someone else, right?
And you'll get even more problems with being omnipotent.
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maadmax 0
This is a tough question, because if you answer "yes", then a lot of things in the Bible do not make ANY sense. An omniscient creature does not have expectations, since you only have expectations when you do not KNOW how things will work. An omniscient creature does not need to wait until an atheist dies to "give him a chance to follow Christ" - it already knows whether this specific atheist will come to Christ or not. An omniscient creature knows who exactly will be sinner, and who will not be - and this includes everyone, including the people who hasn't born yet - so it doesn't need to wait until the Judgment Day. And that's only part of it.
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You must have studied the Bible quite a bit before you turned your back on it. My personal belief is that God is omniscient. I don't claim to have all the answers why He brought us into existence. It appears to me, from my study of the Bible, that He created us for a purpose even though He knows the end result. Our free will decisions are crucial to the accomplishment of His purpose. I don't know that punishment is the correct term to apply to those who choose not to participate in Gods plan. The lake of fire is probably just another dimension of existence for those who choose it. But the Bible does give the impression that it is not a very happy place. Maybe it is just some type of continuum of the reality we experience here on earth. As far as expectations, I have never read in the Bible where it says He has any. He already knows what is going to happen.
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You must have studied the Bible quite a bit before you turned your back on it. My personal belief is that God is omniscient. I don't claim to have all the answers why He brought us into existence.
This is not the question I'm asking, and I really doubt this question (regarding why the God created Adam) could be reasonably answered. It might be interesting for scholars, but doesn't make sense in a dispute like we have.
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It appears to me, from my study of the Bible, that He created us for a purpose even though He knows the end result. Our free will decisions are crucial to the accomplishment of His purpose.
Yes, this might be the case, but then it - yet again - contradicts with Christian teachings. If the God created us imperfect, and knew this from the beginning, but then told us he expects us to be perfect or be punished otherwise, you cannot claim anymore that this God loves us and _wants_ us to be saved and live a perfect life. In fact this God would look more like an asshole, not really different from punishing the people because they cannot fly.
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I don't know that punishment is the correct term to apply to those who choose not to participate in Gods plan.
I need to stress that from the omniscient God viewpoint there is no choice. You might believe you have choice (and therefore free will), but for God "everything is fixed and you can't change it" (C) Jesus, since the God is omniscient.
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As far as expectations, I have never read in the Bible where it says He has any. He already knows what is going to happen.
So then do you believe the God really waits wondering whether we change or not?
Do you now (after the omniscience thing discussion) see any sense in Judgment Day? Remember, the omniscient God who already knows what is going to happen already knows who was, is and will live and what kind of life.
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maadmax 0
Yes, this might be the case, but then it - yet again - contradicts with Christian teachings. If the God created us imperfect, and knew this from the beginning, but then told us he expects us to be perfect or be punished otherwise, you cannot claim anymore that this God loves us and _wants_ us to be saved and live a perfect life.
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I don't think perfect/imperfect applies to our spiritual state. God created mankind sinless. If we wish to relate to God we need to do it on His terms, i.e. by being sinless. Sin is simply all acts and thoughts accomplished when we remove God from the creator role of reality and insert ourselves. I don't equate perfect with sinless nor do I equate imperfect with sinful.
I need to stress that from the omniscient God viewpoint there is no choice. You might believe you have choice (and therefore free will), but for God "everything is fixed and you can't change it" (C) Jesus, since the God is omniscient.Quote
I will have to disagree with you on this. I believe that Gods ability to know the future does not negate the function of our free will at a future time. God could end everything before it began, but He allows it to play out so we might benefit from the process.
So then do you believe the God really waits wondering whether we change or not?
Do you now (after the omniscience thing discussion) see any sense in Judgment Day? Remember, the omniscient God who already knows what is going to happen already knows who was, is and will live and what kind of life.Quote
I don't think God is waiting for anything. I think time is something we deal with. I don't see God affected by time or space. The Judgement day is for us, God already knows the outcome.
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oh I'm really going to like this forum. 
sooooo let me see if I understand this theory correctly speedracer: because at about the age of seven, I found out the 'truth' about Santa. having found my pop & my grandma, placing all the presents marked 'Love from Santa' under the tree, that year. But since I had, yet little to no evidence at all to prove it was them' in all the years prior to that & still NO evidence at all to prove this Santa guy EVER existed. as a reasoning person, my reasoning should still lead me to believe that for the 1st, 6 years it must have been the Santa, whose existence there is zero, evidence of? that isn't reasonable, at all
QuoteGREAT! Next time walk into your local biker bar and yell, "Hey! All you pussy bikers suck! I'd love to discuss it, but I'm going to be on the road for a few days. See ya!"
Why in Hawkings name would you start this thread knowing you're going to bail?
quade & Quotemnealtx: more importantly, whose name do they call out during sex?
ROTFLMFAO. I have to hang in this forum more often.It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak
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I don't think perfect/imperfect applies to our spiritual state.
But you have to! You obviously agree humans were not created perfect physically - there is enough evidence. What else it could apply to, if not spiritual state?
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God created mankind sinless. If we wish to relate to God we need to do it on His terms, i.e. by being sinless.
By saying "God created mankind sinless" do you mean that the God created everyone of us having presets to live sinless life? Or just the God created Adam and Eve sinless, but didn't give them any presets to keep them on sinless path?
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Sin is simply all acts and thoughts accomplished when we remove God from the creator role of reality and insert ourselves.
It's pretty strange definition. I could hardly see how masturbation or premarital sex - obvious sins according to most Christian religions - remove the God from the creator role.
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I don't equate perfect with sinless nor do I equate imperfect with sinful.
I equate "God creates us perfect" with at least "as the God wanted us to act". Which also implies sinless. You have another opinion?
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I will have to disagree with you on this. I believe that Gods ability to know the future does not negate the function of our free will at a future time.
From God's viewpoint you have no free will. He already knows all the decisions you will make, and everything you will do in your life. It's like an FPS computer game - you think you have free will there, and free to do whatever you want, but actually your "free will" is restricted and heavily manipulated by the game creator, and in most cases he knows exactly what you gonna do next.
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I don't think God is waiting for anything. I think time is something we deal with. I don't see God affected by time or space. The Judgement day is for us, God already knows the outcome.
But why the God needs to _wait_ until the Judgment day, if - as Christians say - his goal is just to separate those who follow Christ and those who do not?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
maadmax 0
But you have to! You obviously agree humans were not created perfect physically - there is enough evidence. What else it could apply to, if not spiritual state?
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I may define perfect different than you. We all live in and are part of a universe perfectly controlled by physical laws. The physics that defines our existence is perfect, so we are perfect. Our bodies are designed to grow old and die, that is not imperfection. How we manipulate our perfect world on a metaphysical/spiritual basis is not a matter of perfection, it is a matter of being in Gods will or out of it.
By saying "God created mankind sinless" do you mean that the God created everyone of us having presets to live sinless life? Or just the God created Adam and Eve sinless, but didn't give them any presets to keep them on sinless path?Quote
It is my belief that God created the initial members of our species in a state of spiritual purity. I don't claim to have all of the details. Choices made by those people introduced the knowledge of good and evil into our collective consciousness which is the source of sin. They used their free will to chose the knowledge of good and evil over the Knowledge of God.
It's pretty strange definition. I could hardly see how masturbation or premarital sex - obvious sins according to most Christian religions - remove the God from the creator role.Quote
I am referring to the creation of our individual realities , not creation by procreation.
I equate "God creates us perfect" with at least "as the God wanted us to act". Which also implies sinless. You have another opinion?Quote
As far as actions, I see it that we are either in Gods spiritual reality or we are not. I don't see what perfect/imperfect has to do with it. Are you equating perfection with acceptable to God?
From God's viewpoint you have no free will. He already knows all the decisions you will make, and everything you will do in your life. It's like an FPS computer game - you think you have free will there, and free to do whatever you want, but actually your "free will" is restricted and heavily manipulated by the game creator, and in most cases he knows exactly what you gonna do next.Quote
I guess we will just disagree on this point.
But why the God needs to _wait_ until the Judgment day, if - as Christians say - his goal is just to separate those who follow Christ and those who do not?Quote
I agree with you, He doesn't. I believe He is doing it for us to see.
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24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' ""We didn't start the fire"br0k3n 0
QuoteWe know that God allowed sin, becasue the bible says that God created satan to work havoc and destroy,
Rubbish......i would suggest actually reading the bible before making incorrect statements...-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+We know that God allowed sin, becasue the bible says that God created satan to work havoc and destroy,
Rubbish......i would suggest actually reading the bible before making incorrect statements...
Are you under the impression that the bible suggests there is more than one God? Then God created everything for his purpose didnt he? But if thats not enough, take Isaiah 54:16-17...
"See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;
no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD.
There are many being forged for the work of the blacksmith. They are tempered in flames and molded in the fire. Their tounge speaks the deception that decieves them and the lie will keep them there until the truth sets them free, by "snatching them from the fire" Gods elect are those who have been in the fire and tested by the flames, they are those who have been saved by his grace, those who have tasted death and found life. There is much more to say about this....Zechariah...
Then he showed me Joshua [a] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
Zechariah cont....
In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' ""We didn't start the fire"
Weirdly dyslexic, or what???
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