vortexring 0 #26 February 22, 2008 Now that's funny! Sometimes I wonder whether the good old days were actually any good! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #27 February 22, 2008 Make poverty history.......make drugs cheaper. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 February 22, 2008 Quotehttp://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/statistics/statistics_info1.shtml ***Deaths per user: Alcohol = 100,000/140,000,000 = .07 % or 70 per 100,000 Cocaine = 1,000/ 12,200,000 = .008 % or 8 per 100,000 Deaths per abuser: Alcohol = 100,000/18,000,000 = .56 % or 56 per 10,000 Cocaine = 1,000/ 250,000 = .40 % or 40 per 10,000 so you're citing a drug advocacy cite who is sourcing an article for legalization. Nice! But I'll grant, the numbers are probably right within an order of magnitude, even though the demoninators on each are questionable. (I doubt you have 12M snorting up at Happy Hour on Friday) What missing (aside from anything about tobacco) is time of exposure. Of the 100k listed for alcohol, figure about 20k are DUIs which is a more indirect cause. Some number are people who mixed drugs (prescription or not) and alcohol. The rest are chronic drinkers who went decades at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #29 February 22, 2008 QuoteWhat missing (aside from anything about tobacco) is time of exposure. Of the 100k listed for alcohol, figure about 20k are DUIs which is a more indirect cause. Some number are people who mixed drugs (prescription or not) and alcohol. The rest are chronic drinkers who went decades at it. And a small percentage of that are people who died from alcohol poisoning (overdose). It's hard to compare the dangers of alcohol and cocaine, because they're different in a lot of ways. It's much easier to OD on cocaine, but it's much easier to injure yourself while intoxicated on alcohol, and excessive drinking also makes you more of a danger to others than cocaine use does. I think they're both equally addictive, but that's just my personal perception. I doubt that it's possible to get any accurate stats as far as that's concerned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #30 February 22, 2008 Quoteso you're citing a drug advocacy cite who is sourcing an article for legalization. Nice! But I'll grant, the numbers are probably right within an order of magnitude, even though the demoninators on each are questionable. (I doubt you have 12M snorting up at Happy Hour on Friday) What missing (aside from anything about tobacco) is time of exposure. Of the 100k listed for alcohol, figure about 20k are DUIs which is a more indirect cause. Some number are people who mixed drugs (prescription or not) and alcohol. The rest are chronic drinkers who went decades at it. The page cites several different sources, including The National Council on Alcoholism, The Cato Institute, and US Surgeon General, to name but a few. Different studies attribute different slightly different numbers due to different years studied and different methodologies (different years have different abuse:use ratios). The fact of the matter is that alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous than commonly used, illegal recreational drugs. Erowid is the best general source of information for recreational drugs that I am aware of. Even my doctor recommended it recently. The information available on the site ranges from poorly written documentation of personal experiences (less than reliable anecdotal data) to academic research (typically credible and reliable data). If you're aware of a better source of reliable, accurate information, feel free to share it. If you read the page carefully, you will notice that the 100,000 deaths attributed to alcohol do not include deaths attributed to alcohol related traffic accidents. If you want to include those, you'll need to at least double the total number of deaths attributed to alcohol from the 100,000 that I posted. As far as the "denominators" are concerned, if you read the source I linked to and quoted (which was subsequently quoted by yourself), you'll see that deaths have been offered in both total number and per 100,000 users (as well as per 10,000 abusers), so it offers a fair comparison between different illegal drugs and alcohol, despite different numbers of users.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #31 February 25, 2008 Quote Quote Quote I thought this was pretty good. I actually grew up a bit later but still with some of these "drug" problems, not all of them. We need to return to most of these. The United States has had serious drug problems of all kinds starting primarily after the Civil War. Thousands and thousands of CW vets were hooked on morphine and they could order "kits" complete with syringe and drugs from Sears catalog. Millions of people were hooked on all kinds of opaites....everything from cough syrup to tablets.....who would not feel better after a speedball?????? Around 1900 or so, the feds started trying to find ways to make certain drugs illegal, and the states actually fought it! The feds got away with it by offering a federal "stamp" or kind of a license that would allow dealers to sell legally.....of course the federal government never had the intention of making these stamps! But as usual the IRS doesn't care. They just want their money.>http://www.drugstamps.com/2007/10/09/what-is-a-drug-tax-stamp/ Kinda like them overlooking illegals and backs that help illegals. The stamp was not a tax stamp-though I guess it could be.....it was more of a license to deal, but the government never had any intention to produce the stamp, it was a way around free speech and a few other minor things. "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #32 February 25, 2008 I completely disagree with everything in the article. It's the typical just brainwash your kids to become good christians and everything will be just fine mentality. I don't say the whole drinking and drug thing is good, but I believe that you make your kids mentally blind to every alternative in faith and everything else towards life if you do what the article says to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #33 February 25, 2008 I used to think that it would be a bad idea to legalize any of the drugs. Then I saw the movie Traffic. Our current course on drugs in this country is hopeless. I don't have the answer but I know something needs to change. Edited to add: In my teens and early 20's I drew the line at injecting myself with anything...other than that it was all good.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ROK 0 #34 February 25, 2008 Quotebrainwash your kids If I don't brainwash my kids, something or somebody else will... If you raise your children correctly, they'll be self confident and choose accordingly when the alternatives are presented to them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #35 February 25, 2008 I think it more resembles what that one song called "dragging the past out of the disposal, rinsing off the scum and prtraying it as they way things were and ought to be." As Bill The Cat would say: "AAAAACK!"" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #36 February 25, 2008 QuoteIf I don't brainwash my kids, something or somebody else will… Why brainwash kids at all? Why not teach them how to examine evidence and think for themselves so they can make their own knowledgeable decisions?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #37 February 25, 2008 Quote Now that's funny! Sometimes I wonder whether the good old days were actually any good! Not according to my Grandma. People reminiscing about The Good Old Days really got her undies in a bundle. She was born in 1896 and lived to be 93. Saw the coming and popularization of a shitload of technologies, lived thru 2 World Wars, 1 Great Depression, massive social changes, and on and on. Her take on it was there is no such thing, that life was harder in almost every way imagineable. What's that saying? That these are The Good Old Days that someone in the future is longing to get back to? Nostalgia is fun when it presents the pretty side of the past; but to wish for a return is silly." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #38 February 25, 2008 QuoteNostalgia is fun when it presents the pretty side of the past; but to wish for a return is silly. To be honest I don't see what there was in the OP to get nostalgic about. Constant beatings as an alternative to actual parenting? Woop-de-do.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ROK 0 #39 February 25, 2008 QuoteQuoteIf I don't brainwash my kids, something or somebody else will… Why brainwash kids at all? Why not teach them how to examine evidence and think for themselves so they can make their own knowledgeable decisions? "Brainwash" was the incorrect term to use. Meaning "reform", or "re-educate". [B]If I don't form, and educate my kids, something or somebody else will...[/B] Better? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #40 February 25, 2008 QuoteQuoteIf I don't brainwash my kids, something or somebody else will… Why brainwash kids at all? Why not teach them how to examine evidence and think for themselves so they can make their own knowledgeable decisions? BINGO. Do your best to raise kind and intelligent kids. They will write the future and do not need to be micromanaged into it with a bajillion rules on specifics. Impart to them wisdom and caring and good things will follow. Kids grab on to unhealthy ideas only because there is a void; and mostly as the result of absent or ineffective parenting. Plant the seeds of wisdom early so when they hit the stages in life where peer influence begins to outweigh parental influence they are armed and have the courage to use their wisdom despite the pressure of their not so well prepared peers. Every kid I've met that went down the destructive path (other than those with significant mental handicap) leaves a trail right back to their early family life; which is parents from birth to pre-teen years, then the peers their parents set them up to be attracted to after that. As a coach I have mentored at least 200 little athletes that represent a good cross section of families; and as a volunteer at alternative learning centers been exposed to a solid block of about the same number of kids on the unhealthy path. I've met a good number of parents and I'm NEVER EVER EVER EVER surprised by the family behind the kid. Not once have I met a troubled kid, then met the parents and said "I wonder how that happened?"" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #41 February 25, 2008 QuoteQuoteNostalgia is fun when it presents the pretty side of the past; but to wish for a return is silly. To be honest I don't see what there was in the OP to get nostalgic about. Constant beatings as an alternative to actual parenting? Woop-de-do. Well let's see; a statement that we need to return to these, referring to a list of behaviors from one of those the-way-we-did-it-when-I-was-a-kid articles; presented in a totally unbalanced manner and sounding as if it advocates a return to said behaviors. The nostalgia, and my criticism; Has mostly to do with the artlcle; and I give the benefit of the doubt in assuming the poster doesn't really want a full-fledged return to the early 20th century. I agree with your Whoop-de-do sentiment; but there really are people who think a return to some other time would be a solution." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #42 February 25, 2008 QuoteIf I don't form, and educate my kids, something or somebody else will. I certainly don't disagree that parents need to actively parent. Unfortunately, parents sometimes do, with or without intent or good intentions, brainwash their kids. I see it most often with religion (insert religion here is the only true way to insert favorite name for unverifiable supernatural entity.) or drugs (Drugs are bad, m'kay? Here, have a insert favorite alcoholic beverage.). It's difficult to shelter kids from the real world while simultaneously preparing them for it. (ROK, I'm not trying to imply anything about your parenting skills in particular.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #43 February 25, 2008 QuoteQuoteNostalgia is fun when it presents the pretty side of the past; but to wish for a return is silly. To be honest I don't see what there was in the OP to get nostalgic about. Constant beatings as an alternative to actual parenting? Woop-de-do. Ah, yes... the "anything other than a pat on the head is a beating" bleaters have shown up.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #44 February 25, 2008 QuoteWell let's see; a statement that we need to return to these, referring to a list of behaviors from one of those the-way-we-did-it-when-I-was-a-kid articles; presented in a totally unbalanced manner and sounding as if it advocates a return to said behaviors. Oh yeah, I know what you mean. It's just that most of those types of chain letter at least cherry pick information that makes 'ye olde times' sound good. Personally I can't see why anyone would think the picture painted in the OP sounds good even when you take it at face value!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 February 25, 2008 QuoteQuoteWell let's see; a statement that we need to return to these, referring to a list of behaviors from one of those the-way-we-did-it-when-I-was-a-kid articles; presented in a totally unbalanced manner and sounding as if it advocates a return to said behaviors. Oh yeah, I know what you mean. It's just that most of those types of chain letter at least cherry pick information that makes 'ye olde times' sound good. Personally I can't see why anyone would think the picture painted in the OP sounds good even when you take it at face value! Oh, heavens no...teaching a child humility, respect and personal responsibility has no place in today's world.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #46 February 25, 2008 So when you drag your kid out to the woodshed it's just for a mild smacking, is it?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #47 February 25, 2008 QuoteOh, heavens no...teaching a child humility, respect and personal responsibility has no place in today's world. Teaching humility and respect are fine - but anyone who can't teach it without hitting is a shit parent.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #48 February 25, 2008 Quote Quote Oh, heavens no...teaching a child humility, respect and personal responsibility has no place in today's world. Teaching humility and respect are fine - but anyone who can't teach it without hitting is a shit parent. Too funny...peeps on DZ.com waxing eloquent about being a good parent. Kinda like the PTA telling you how to turn points.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #49 February 25, 2008 QuoteToo funny...peeps on DZ.com waxing eloquent about being a good parent. Kinda like the PTA telling you how to turn points. Kinda like this entire forum, you mean?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,648 #50 February 25, 2008 Quote Quote Now that's funny! Sometimes I wonder whether the good old days were actually any good! Not according to my Grandma. People reminiscing about The Good Old Days really got her undies in a bundle. She was born in 1896 and lived to be 93. Saw the coming and popularization of a shitload of technologies, lived thru 2 World Wars, 1 Great Depression, massive social changes, and on and on. Her take on it was there is no such thing, that life was harder in almost every way imagineable. What's that saying? That these are The Good Old Days that someone in the future is longing to get back to? Nostalgia is fun when it presents the pretty side of the past; but to wish for a return is silly. My dad lived to be 92, and he said much the same thing as your grandma.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
