President of the Mormon Church passed away

[billvon 2,433]

>Why do you respect irrational beliefs that have no actual,
>objective supporting evidence?

Because it costs me nothing to do so, and some people appreciate being shown respect.

Now, if their irrational beliefs involve killing people, or getting the government to pay for teaching their religion in public schools, or keeping racism alive, then I will lose my respect for them. But it is their actions that then merit condemnation, not their religious beliefs - irrational or not.

[bclark 0]

I was born in Provo, Ut. My father was a Bishop and Stake President in the LDS church. My parents, now that all the children (5 of us) are born and raised, are going to be mission presidents in a yet to be determined Spanish speaking mission for 3 years. I was raised in the Mormon church. I rebelled as many kids do, and made many mistakes regardless of what faith you believe in. I am thankful for the way that my family raised me. Think what you want about the LDS church. LDS families are among the strongest around. They teach personal responsibility, respect for your fellow man, hard work, honesty, etc... Mormons believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

I don't go to church. (Of any kind.) But I look at the people around me and am grateful for the upbringing I recieved. Anyone who bashes the LDS church out of ignorance should learn something about them before they form an opinion.

[rhys 0]

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We could go on and on about this, DSE. I can't see a single mormon-related thread without you going on about something negative . This isn't the place for that.

Probably because he lives/has lived in Utah!!!!

Mormans tend to be 'quite sheltered' and uneducated. This would be quite frustrating for those that have the sense to think for themselves!!!!

don't you agree?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Unstable 8]

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don't you agree?

That's why I left Utah.

=========Shaun ==========

[rhys 0]

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respect for your fellow man

I disagree with that comment, watch 'this divided state'.

There was no respect whatsoever whenever anyone questioned the morality of those that opposed the beleifs of the morman.

that is not respect, that is arrogance.

I laughed at the comments on the liberals not 'being able to afford' to stay in the same neighborhood as the repubs'.

what assholes.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DSE 3]

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Mormans tend to be 'quite sheltered' and uneducated. This would be quite frustrating for those that have the sense to think for themselves!!!!
don't you agree?

Holy cow...I have to defend Utah mormons?? Nope, they're amongst the MOST educated people in the USA. Very low high school dropout rate by national comparison, and when you consider the number of students per teacher, it's considerably lower (percentage-wise) than most states. Teen pregnancy is slightly lower in Utah and surrounding states than the national average. Substance abuse is also lower.
However, suicide is grossly higher for young males, wavering between 3rd and 6th in the nation (not per capita). CDC isn't easily forthcoming with the statistics, even though I've had some really good pointers from someone here on DZ.com.
Disclaimer, watch for a new book entitled "Better Off Dead: A Book of Mormon Suicide." It details why I believe suicide in the Intermountain region is so terribly high.

Most folks don't quite realize there are two LDS faiths. The one in Utah, and then the one everywhere else. I'm fairly sure that anyone who knows Utah LDS people and LDS people from other places will agree with me.
Utah Mormons are very racist, particularly those that have long-time, deep roots. Only yesterday did I hear the local bishop comment "Have your black guys...." Or "Jerry Ferguson's Mexicans..." sorts of phrases are heard. Yes, it's constantly 1955 in some parts of Utah, but Utah is the single most connected state in the USA, according to the State of Utah, and Forbes says Utah is in the top 5, so choose who to believe.
Mormons are definitely educated for the most part. Sheeiiittt. My older brother is not only a PhD, he's got TWO of em'. I have two cousins (one of em' a mormon Bishop who is a senior rocket engineer for Thiokol, and his little brother designed the Rav for Iomega. They're stinkin' brilliant. Yet another cuz that invented Chumz, the eyeglass holder. He now builds green water pumps (pumps that don't need outside energy and don't create pollution) They sell em' to the Mexican government. I guess I came out the idiot, but did do the college thing in Utah.I should probably STFU now, (ask Walt).
There are a LOT of things to say about LDS weirdness and lifestyle, but "dumb/ignorant/uneducated isn't one of them.

[JohnnyD 0]

Your thoughts on O. Porter Rockwell?
Just curious - I spent a little time in Utah. Read a book too.

[Skyrad 0]

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I dont understand how so many people can throw rocks at a religion that they dont fully understand or are knowledgeable about.

Think you've got problems try being a Muslim

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DSE 3]

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Your thoughts on O. Porter Rockwell?
Just curious - I spent a little time in Utah. Read a book too.

Outside of him being a hitman for the Danites? A couple of decades ago, I used to play in the Zephyr Club in SLC, Utah. There once was a hotel there, and that's where OP Rockwell was killed in his room, while drunk.
There are so many fun stories about him, ranging from when he went to California to collect the tithes of the The Saints, lost it all, spent the winter selling booze and opium, and earned the money back because he was afraid of Brigham Young. That story alone tells how frightening Brigham must have been, if he could instill fear in a man like Rockwell.
Rockwell served in the most significant fashion, I believe, by preventing members of the faith from joining J.J. Strang, whom many believe should have been the successor to Joseph Smith. Not only do many church documents support that belief, but Sidney Rigdon also supported it; he was Smith's second counselor in the church. He went into hiding from Rockwell. Funny thing is, today you ask almost *any* Mormon about Strang, and they'll know nothing about him. They won't know that Martin Harris, David and David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and even Smith's mother and wife (Lucy & Emma Smith) that he was the appointed replacement for Smith. He believed he was a King, and also "found plates" that he translated, just like Smith did. It's almost worthy of a comedic film, all those Hebrew and Aramaic plates that were buried/found in NY and IL during the early days of the LDS church. Between the Golden Plates, the Kinderhook Plates, the Strang plates, and a few others whose name immediately escapes me....

In short, if there had been no Rockwell to prevent Strang's continued successes, there would be no Mormon church as it is known today. It likely would be the same backwater group that was known as the RLDS faith, now known as The Community of Christ. They have a few hundred thousand members world-wide, and all of their leadership is a direct blood descendency of Joseph Smith. They have always allowed women to hold the priesthood (just as early mormons did), and have accepted black people since the Civil War. The regular Mormon church didn't, until they were sued by civil rights activists in the mid 70's.
Rockwell screwed up...He shoulda just left JJ Strang and the Strangites alone!

[AWL71 0]

"Most folks don't quite realize there are two LDS faiths. The one in Utah, and then the one everywhere else. I'm fairly sure that anyone who knows Utah LDS people and LDS people from other places will agree with me."

Holy crap. I am agreeing with DSE on a Mormon statement. I was born a member of the church but I have always lived in the southeastern US. My first trip to Utah was my last trip to Utah. The teachings of the church are the same everywhere but the subculture of the church in Utah is very different. Many, not all, are very arrogant and condescending. I would never live there. I am not bashing the church, I am an active member but the subculture in Utah is different from anywhere else.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[DSE 3]

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"Most folks don't quite realize there are two LDS faiths. The one in Utah, and then the one everywhere else. I'm fairly sure that anyone who knows Utah LDS people and LDS people from other places will agree with me."

Holy crap. I am agreeing with DSE on a Mormon statement. I was born a member of the church but I have always lived in the southeastern US. My first trip to Utah was my last trip to Utah. The teachings of the church are the same everywhere but the subculture of the church in Utah is very different. Many, not all, are very arrogant and condescending. I would never live there. I am not bashing the church, I am an active member but the subculture in Utah is different from anywhere else.

Hell just froze over!!!!

[kallend 1,647]

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>Why do you respect irrational beliefs that have no actual,
>objective supporting evidence?

Because it costs me nothing to do so, and some people appreciate being shown respect.

Now, if their irrational beliefs involve killing people, or getting the government to pay for teaching their religion in public schools, or keeping racism alive, then I will lose my respect for them. But it is their actions that then merit condemnation, not their religious beliefs - irrational or not.

I have met very few religious people who did not, in some way, act on their beliefs in a way that affected others - often adversely.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AWL71 0]

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>Why do you respect irrational beliefs that have no actual,
>objective supporting evidence?

Because it costs me nothing to do so, and some people appreciate being shown respect.

Now, if their irrational beliefs involve killing people, or getting the government to pay for teaching their religion in public schools, or keeping racism alive, then I will lose my respect for them. But it is their actions that then merit condemnation, not their religious beliefs - irrational or not.

I have met very few religious OR NON RELIGIOUS people who did not, in some way, act on their beliefs in a way that affected others - often adversely.

Fixed it for you.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[DSE 3]

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>Why do you respect irrational beliefs that have no actual,
>objective supporting evidence?

Because it costs me nothing to do so, and some people appreciate being shown respect.

Now, if their irrational beliefs involve killing people, or getting the government to pay for teaching their religion in public schools, or keeping racism alive, then I will lose my respect for them. But it is their actions that then merit condemnation, not their religious beliefs - irrational or not.

I have met very few religious OR NON RELIGIOUS people who did not, in some way, act on their beliefs in a way that affected others - often adversely.

Fixed it for you.

When was the last time a non-religious person or organization passed a law based entirely in non-religion that affected your general well-being, lifestyle, or freedom?
When was the last time a non-religious person knocked on the door at your home with a message about how screwed up your life was because you are religious??
When was the last time you were accosted at the airport or other public space by a non-religious person asking for money? Homeless people don't count, as panhandling isn't universally protected, but religious groups are. Even those in the non-religious religion category, of course.

[AWL71 0]

I a member of the Mormon church. Plenty of non religious people have told me I am an idiot for my believes. It doesn't bother me a bit.

I don't dispute that living in Utah would suck.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[warpedskydiver 0]

No wonder you are so twisted!!!

I like you even better now.

You can hang out with us anytime you like.

[DSE 3]

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I a member of the Mormon church. Plenty of non religious people have told me I am an idiot for my believes. It doesn't bother me a bit.

I don't dispute that living in Utah would suck.

Living in Utah doesn't suck, as long as we're allowed to chase missionaries away from the door with pepper spray and baseball bats. I wish I was as biblically eloquent as this guy but since I'm not a follower of the bible either, I just enjoy seeing the sweat.
I admit, the lifestyle in Utah can be repressive if you allow it to be. If I was a heavy drinker, smoker, or party animal...it would be tough. I'm none of those things. The environment is worth dealing with most of the weirdness, but at the same time, going to the store, mall, or downtown and seeing all the Stepford wives, robotic men, and cyborg-like emotions in those places... it surely could be weird.
Fortunately, I live out in the mostly uninhabited desert area, and SLC is a long drive away.

[ExAFO 0]

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Living in Utah doesn't suck, as long as we're allowed to chase missionaries away from the door with pepper spray and baseball bats.

Claymore mines!

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Skyrad 0]

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>Why do you respect irrational beliefs that have no actual,
>objective supporting evidence?

Because it costs me nothing to do so, and some people appreciate being shown respect.

Now, if their irrational beliefs involve killing people, or getting the government to pay for teaching their religion in public schools, or keeping racism alive, then I will lose my respect for them. But it is their actions that then merit condemnation, not their religious beliefs - irrational or not.

I couldn't have put it better.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[diablopilot 2]

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Living in Utah doesn't suck, as long as we're allowed to chase missionaries away from the door with pepper spray and baseball bats.

Really?!

I found just answering the door in my underwear was enough, but I'd like to try your techniques.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[moodyskydiver 0]

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If you're a member of the faith, you know this. You've never, ever been inside a consecrated temple because above, you say you've never paid a tithe. You cannot be issued a temple recommend without having paid your tithing in full.

I have been in the Dallas,TX temple several times w/o tithing b/c I am a student and have no income to tithe and my finances are limited.The church looks at those factors.I have been given a full temple recommend for baptisms and other temple work in full faith regardless of tithing.So please do not tell me whether I have or have not been inside a temple.Not to mention that before I was ever a member I entered the Dallas,TX Temple b/c certain parts of the temple ARE open to nonmembers.Its very limited,but yes there are places in the temple for nonmembers.

And you misread my other post saying that non members can see marriages and such..I said in a CIVIL ceremony,not a temple ceremony.

You cannot have multiple wives in heaven nor are you given new families in heaven,thats completely false.If you have read the teachings of the Mormon church,then you would know that we believe that your families are eternal and that you will always be with them including after death.If you knew anything about the actual temple ceremonies then you would already know that,but you are not correctly informed.

I stand by everything I have said.As stated in my OP I simply wished to acknowledge and honor President Hinckley's death...not start a spiritual uprising.

And my invitation to any member or non member to contact me privately is still open.

"...just an earthbound misfit, I."

[DSE 3]

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[You cannot have multiple wives in heaven nor are you given new families in heaven,thats completely false.If you have read the teachings of the Mormon church,then you would know that we believe that your families are eternal and that you will always be with them including after death.

You clearly don't know the religion in which you claim membership. I suggest you spend some time with the Stake President or Bishop and get some facts, or research the church.
You've apparently not had your own endowments, or you wouldn't make such a silly statement.
Of COURSE one has multiple wives in heaven, and OF COURSE your non-member relatives are not with you in the Celestial Kingdom.
Sweetie, you have SO much to learn about your religion...
Baptisms for the dead are not truly "in the temple." You've never seen the Celestial, Telestial, or Terrestrial rooms...those are reserved for folks that have had endowments done. Any teen who is marginally worthy is permitted to act as a proxy for baptisms for the dead. It ain't even close to the same as the "real" stuff that happens after you've taken out your own endowments.

What parts of the temple ceremony would you like me to spell out for you? I'm not too concerned that I'll be struck down dead (even though I agreed to commit suicide if I ever spoke of my temple experiences). Would you like to know my wife's secret name? Secret handshakes? (For accuracy, the suicide pact was removed from the temple ceremonies in 1996). Read D&C 132. Read the Journal of Discourses, V11, page 269. or just go buy a copy of "Mormons for Dummies." Until the LDS faith repudiates and removes those scriptures (or modifies them) which they certainly can do (after all, God's word is weak, and therefore needs several books to support it), and they have done (as recently evidenced by changes in the Book of Mormon due to DNA discovery relating to Native America,....polygamy is live, well, talked about, joked about in the world today. If former General Authority George P. Lee is to be believed, General Authorities even today, have had multiple women sealed to them in this life for purposes of the next.
Additionally, anyone who has been married in the temple and divorced, but has not had a temple divorce, is still sealed to their former spouse. Imagine that! A man divorces his wife, marries another, but doesn't have a temple divorce from the first wife, he now has two in his pocket. Poor sucker... Tossed the one for life, but now he's stuck with her in eternity.
Moody, send me a PM and I'd be happy to explain whatever you'd like to know about your church.

[ExAFO 0]

I still want to know what planet Hinckley gets to be god over...

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[moodyskydiver 0]

You're right.I have not had my own endowments yet.But thats b/c I've been an inactive member for over 10yrs.I'm only 25 years old now.

..and yes I have been into one of the sacred rooms w/o my endowments to be sealed to both of my parents and my eldest sister.

As I stated above, the only reason for my OP was to honor and pay my respects on behalf of President Hinckley's death,not start a theological argument.

If you think I'm misinformed thats fine with me.Everyone has an opinion...

"...just an earthbound misfit, I."

[ExAFO 0]

What...Planet...Does...Hinckley...Get...to...Be...god...Over????

IIRC, LDS President Lorenzo Snow, In June of 1840, declared, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."

So...my original question stands...

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.