Why Has This School Not Been Shut Down?! F*cking Sick

[popsjumper 2]

Funny how nobody has mentioned Electric 8-way. We do it to ourselves...the difference is that WE never learn.

Funny how everybody is getting in an uproar over subjecting kids to pain.

I'm sure they just love:
-Shots
-Circumcision
-Dentistry
-Vaccinations
-Stitches
-Tincture of Iodine
-Isopropyl alcohol
-etc....


And yes, I think that method of treatment is extreme and over the line...same as shock therapy.

IF it works, does the end justify the means?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[sartre 0]

People may have differing ideas on what constitutes abuse, but I find it very concerning that shock treatments are supposedly needed for 50 percent of the children who attend. Even more concerning is that they don't even attempt psychotherapy before resorting to this.

And the young man who still has terror filled dreams may have experienced an improvement in behavior while undergoing the treatments, (due to fear) but it obviously had no lasting positive effects, as he's been in trouble with the law for assault since then.

[turtlespeed 212]

Do they not have to have parental consent?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[swedishcelt 0]

Does parental consent mean anything if it harms the child?

[sartre 0]

They do. Plus a court has to agree. And a physician. And a therapist. None of which proves it's safe and effective. And that psychotherapy wouldn't be effective. The psychotherapist who assesses the child does only that...not based upon weeks or months of seeing the child, but based upon one visit to evaluate.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

[PRSKY71 0]

"In addition, the use of aversives has to be pre-approved, on an individual basis, by the child’s school system (through the IEP process), the parent, a physician, a psychiatrist, a human rights committee, a peer review committee and a Massachusetts Probate Court judge. Currently, only a minority of JRC’s school-age students receive skin shock as an aversive and even in these cases its use is very infrequent, less than once per week in the average case. In many cases the student progresses so well with this treatment that the aversives can eventually be removed entirely and the student can be returned to his/her local school system."
______________________

Damn, that's a lot of people living in the dark ages. Someone actually pre-approves such barbaric treatment? ABSOLUTELY NUTS!!!!!

Character cannot be made except by a steady, long continued process. -- Phillips Brooks

[turtlespeed 212]

Yes.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

They do. Plus a court has to agree. And a physician. And a therapist. None of which proves it's safe and effective. And that psychotherapy wouldn't be effective. The psychotherapist who assesses the child does only that...not based upon weeks or months of seeing the child, but based upon one visit to evaluate.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

I'm not condoning this - just wondering who is the end of the liability chain.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[sartre 0]

Sometimes some parents throw up their hands and go with the recommendation of supposed experts in the field. I think the people selling the parents on the idea have some large level of responsibility.

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

Sometimes some parents throw up their hands and go with the recommendation of supposed experts in the field. I think the people selling the parents on the idea have some large level of responsibility.

Not arguing that -

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[sartre 0]

Didn't think you were arguing anything.

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

Didn't think you were arguing anything.

I didn't either.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

Does this mean that we're on the way back to people being able to discipline their unruly kids without being hauled off to jail for child abuse?

I believe it's still legal for people to spank their kids, which is no less painful than a mild electric shock.

It's illegal here in Washington. (I personally disagree with that, but moving on).

Quote

I didn't read much from the links, but I've heard of this place before. I thought that the shocks were used on children with behavioral problems rather than those with autism(???), and it sounds like they have to have the parents' permission to use such measures.

I don't know enough about autism to comment on that aspect of their treatment program, but it seems that they have had success with some behavioral problems that didn't respond to other types of treatment.

I guess maybe some clips from the very long article might put things into perspective:

Quote

*Of the 234 current residents, about half are wired to receive shocks, including some as young as nine or ten

*The Rotenberg Center, which has 900 employees and annual revenues exceeding $56 million, charges $220,000 a year for each student. States and school districts pick up the tab.

*The Rotenberg Center is the only facility in the country that disciplines students by shocking them, a form of punishment not inflicted on serial killers or child molesters or any of the 2.2 million inmates now incarcerated in U.S. jails and prisons.

*six children have died in its care, prompting numerous lawsuits and government investigations. Last year, New York state investigators filed a blistering report that made the place sound like a high school version of Abu Ghraib. Yet the program continues to thrive—in large part because no one except desperate parents, and a few state legislators, seems to care about what happens to the hundreds of kids who pass through its gates.

*Rob remained hooked up to the apparatus 24 hours a day. He wore it while jogging on the treadmill and playing basketball, though it wasn't easy to sink a jump shot with a 10-pound backpack on. When he showered, a staff member would remove his electrodes, all except the one on his arm, which he had to hold outside the shower to keep it dry. At night, Rob slept with the backpack next to him, under the gaze of a surveillance camera.

*(The school's staff claim it is no more painful than a bee sting; when I tried the shock, it felt like a horde of wasps attacking me all at once. Two seconds never felt so long.)

*She believed he would receive regular psychiatric counseling—though the school does not provide this.

*But at the Rotenberg Center, the same methods of "behavior modification" are applied to all kids, no matter what is causing their behavior problems. And so, while Rob would seem to have little in common with mentally retarded students like Michael and Andrew, they all shared a similar fate

*With permission from Andrea's mother, Israel decided to try out Skinner's ideas on the three-year-old. When Andrea was well behaved, Israel took her out for walks. But when she misbehaved, he punished her by snapping his finger against her cheek. His mentor Skinner preached that positive reinforcement was vastly preferable to punishment, but Israel says his methods transformed the girl. "Instead of being an annoyance, she became a charming addition to the house." Israel's success with Andrea convinced him to start a school. -so he changes the behavior of a naughty 3 year old, and feels competent to open a school for severly disabled AUTISTICS?

*Two years later, the Los Angeles Times reported Israel had pinched the feet of Christopher Hirsch, an autistic 12-year-old, at least 24 times in 30 minutes, while the boy screamed and cried. This was a punishment for soiling his pants. ("It might have been true," Israel says. "It's true that pinches were being used as an aversive.

*14-year-old Danny Aswad, died while strapped facedown to his bed. In 1982, the California Department of Social Services compiled a 64-page complaint that read like a catalog of horrors, describing students with bruises, welts, and cuts. It also accused Israel of telling a staff member "to grow his fingernails longer so he could give an effective pinch."

*In 1985, Vincent Milletich, an autistic 22-year-old, suffered a seizure and died after he was put in restraints and forced to wear a white-noise helmet. Five years later, 19-year-old Linda Cornelison, who had the mental capacity of a toddler, refused to eat. On the bus to school, she clutched her stomach; someone had to carry her inside, and she spent the day on a couch in a classroom. Linda could not speak, and the staff treated her actions as misbehaviors. Between 3:52 p.m. and 8 p.m., staffers punished her with 13 spatula spankings, 29 finger pinches, 14 muscle squeezes, and 5 forced inhalings of ammonia. It turned out that Linda had a perforated stomach. She died on the operating table at 1:45 a.m.

*Brandon, then 12, who would bite off chunks of his tongue, regurgitate entire meals, and pound himself on the head. At times Brandon was required to keep his hands on a paddle; if he removed them, he would get automatic shocks, one per second. One infamous day, Brandon received more than 5,000 shocks. "You have to realize," Israel says. "I thought his life was in the balance. I couldn't find any medical solution. He was vomiting, losing weight. He was down to 52 pounds. I knew it was risky to use the shock in large numbers, but if I persevered that day, I thought maybe it would eventually work. sure glad he's using kids as guinea pigs to see if torture 'might' eventually work

*Thirty years earlier, O. Ivar Lovaas, a psychology professor at UCLA, had pioneered the use of slaps and screams and electric jolts to try to normalize the behavior of autistic kids. Life magazine featured his work in a nine-page photo essay in 1965 with the headline, "A surprising, shocking treatment helps far-gone mental cripples." Lovaas eventually abandoned these methods, telling CBS in 1993 that shock was "only a temporary suppression" because patients become inured to the pain. "These people are so used to pain that they can adapt to almost any kind of aversive you give them," he said.
Israel encountered this same sort of adaptation in his students, but his solution was markedly different: He decided to increase the pain once again. Today, there are two shock devices in use at the Rotenberg Center: the GED and the GED-4. The devices look similar and both administer a two-second shock, but the GED-4 is nearly three times more powerful—and the pain it inflicts is that much more severe.

*Israel, 74, still holds the title of executive director, for which he pays himself nearly $400,000 in salary and benefits

*Israel has long faced criticism that he has not published research about his use of electric shocks in peer-reviewed journals, where experts could scrutinize it. To defend his methods, he points to a bibliography of 110 research articles that he's posted on the Rotenberg Center website. This catalog seems impressive at first. Studied more closely, however, it is not nearly so convincing. Three-quarters of the articles were published more than 20 years ago. Eight were written or cowritten by Lovaas, the UCLA-affiliated behaviorist. One of America's leading autism experts, Lovaas long ago stopped endorsing painful aversives. Israel trying to justify his methods

*According to Dr. Saul Axelrod, a professor at Temple University and an expert on behavior modification, "the field has moved away from painful stimuli because of public outcry and because we've devised better techniques," including determining the cause of an individual's self-abuse. -Holy sh*t apparently that is nowhere on the agenda of 'Dr' Israel....

*"He may have gotten his Ph.D. at Harvard, but he didn't learn what he's doing at Harvard. Whatever he's doing, he decided to do on his own."

*"He's a very smart man, but he's an embarrassment to his profession," Touchette says. "I've never been able to figure out if Matt is a little off-kilter and actually believes all this stuff, or whether he's just a clever businessman."

*"We hear the sound of [a staffer] picking up a sled," says Isabel, the former student. "Then we turn around and see the person jump out of their seat."

*Employees shock students for a wide range of behaviors, from violent actions to less serious offenses, like getting out of their seats without permission. -failing to maintain a neat appearance

*One afternoon, when I walk into a classroom of teenagers, a 15-year-old girl catches my eye, smiles, and holds up a sheet of paper with a message written in pink marker: HELP US. She puts it back down and shuffles it into her stack of papers before anyone else sees.

*One of the program's youngest students is a nine-year-old named Rodrigo. When I see him, he is seated outside at a picnic table with his aide. Rodrigo's backpack looks enormous on his tiny frame; canvas straps dangle from both legs.
"He was horrible when he first came in," Rivera says. "It would take five staff to restrain him because he's so wiry." What was he like? "A lot of aggression. A lot of disruptive behavior. Whenever he was asked to do a task that he didn't feel like doing, he would scream, yell, swear. The stuff that would come out of his mouth you wouldn't believe—very sexually inappropriate."
"Rodrigo, come here," one of my escorts says.
Rodrigo walks over, his straps slapping the ground. He wears a white dress shirt and tie—the standard uniform for male students—but because he is so small, maybe 4 feet tall, his tie nearly reaches his thighs. "What's that?" he asks.
"That's a tape recorder," I say. "Do you want to say something?"
"Yeah."
Unfazed by the presence of Israel, Rivera, and my other escorts, Rodrigo lifts a small hand and pulls the recorder down toward his lips. "I want to move to another school," he says.

*A Trouble Report on another desk suggests a more serious problem: "Jamie Z was getting his battery changed, Luigi received a shock." "What does this mean?" I ask. Crookes picks up the paper, reads it, then hands it to Israel and walks away. Her gesture seems to say, I cannot believe we just spent two days with this reporter and now this is the last thing she sees.
"Well, I don't understand the whole of it." He is still staring at the paper in his hand. "But there was apparently a spontaneous activation." The GED, in other words, delivered a shock without anyone pressing its remote. But all of his surveillance cameras and microphones and paperwork and protocols had failed to protect Luigi, a mentally retarded resident who had done nothing wrong.

We don't subject rapists and murders to these devices and torture. Apparently disabled and emotionally disturbed kids have less rights than rapists and murderers.

I realize that I probably have more concern and connection to this horror than most on this forum...but I still cannot believe that there are those that would defend this as their 'only alternative'. My God my sons would 'qualify' for this torture. If anyone dared to try to to hook up one of my sons to this GED machine, somebody would need to find me a good attorney for the murder charges I'd be facing.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

IF it works, does the end justify the means?

That's what I'm saying...I'm saying an emphatic 'no' to this type of pain.

I'd liken it to this: Every time you make a stupid post I'll hit you across the face with a belt.

I bet ya wouldn't log on to DZ.com any more. I'm the one that determines if your post is acceptable or not. You won't know, because you lack the ability to judge what is funny, and what is stupid. So beware!
You'll curb your behavior. But did the ends justify those means? I think not.

-and what happens after I've left? Will you not post 'stupid' posts? Will you post more in defiance? Will you start to shake any time you see a keyboard? Will you have a nightmare of me standing over you with a belt?

That's how I view this. -Hey did anyone see that movie, I'm thinking it was called 'Fortress' or something...it was a futuristic prison where peoples' very thoughts were monitored and punished?

Here's something else I have to wonder -many of these children will be experiencing puberty during their 'stay' at this prison. Are they being shocked for a natural self-curiosity, too? Are they seeing that as obscene? And how will that destroy their future together with a possible partner?

I know that might sound WAY out there to some people, but when you have disabled kids you have to plan and try to prepare for *every* stage of a child's development...even the awkward ones.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[cjsgrlsx3 0]

This was actually the hardest post on DZ.com I have read and should have stopped before I read any of the comments.

I am a mother of a BiPolar child and if my child was ever treated like this just because she was emotionally unstable sometimes I would be sitting in jail right now. I would never sign anything that allowed someone else to dicipline my child anyway.

Like Autistic children BiPolar children respond to the same treatments offered to them; positive rewards. I use the same reward system for my BiPolar child as I do my non-BiPolar child. And it certainly is NOT electric shock treatment.

Quote

First of all, how could anyone think that the way you treat an autistic child would be the same as the way you treat a very emotionally troubled child (not that this is "treatment" anyway)...and the idea that you essentially hold the threat of being tasered 24hrs.a day over them might have an effect on a troubled kid, but not to an autistic one who has diminished mental capacity to start with. It's apples and oranges.


.

(I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone)
But I am just curious, do you mean to say that it is OK for a BiPolar child or a child who is emotionally unstable?

Can you imagine the anger you would feel if you did something that someone else thought was wrong and punished you in this manner. The only thing that is taught to these children is fear!

[ImGunnaJump 0]

Quote

First of all, how could anyone think that the way you treat an autistic child would be the same as the way you treat a very emotionally troubled child (not that this is "treatment" anyway)...and the idea that you essentially hold the threat of being tasered 24hrs.a day over them might have an effect on a troubled kid, but not to an autistic one who has diminished mental capacity to start with. It's apples and oranges.


I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone)
But I am just curious, do you mean to say that it is OK for a BiPolar child or a child who is emotionally unstable?

Can you imagine the anger you would feel if you did something that someone else thought was wrong and punished you in this manner. The only thing that is taught to these children is fear!

**Well...I'm really wondering about the pissing constest thing because if you really read my whole post, I don't know how you could come up with that conclusion. And of all the responses to Jaye, you chose to take issue with mine...how about the blatent smart ass remarks???

My response was an attempt to do some critical thinking and deconstruct the Rotenberg Center's argument (I was taught to do that in school - try to look at things objectively) for using this torture as a one-size-fits-all (autitism, emotionally troubled, bipolar...whatever the diagnosis) treatment . And to show that their arugument makes no sense at all for any situation. And further, no matter what Rotenberg's say, it is a barbaric practice. And that trying to get kids to cooperate out of fear is not the way to go...no matter what.

You took one paragraph out of the middle, and therefore, out of context with the rest of what I had to say.

And NO, I don't think it's right for bipolar, autistic, emotionally troubled or any child...I really think the whole tone of my response tells this. To say otherwise is a real stretch, and an unkind one at that.

I respecfully ask that you reread my whole response.

I sometimes write too much...bad habit of mine, maybe that's what made it confusing for you.

I have a big heart for kids...and would never want any child treated this way.

"...I've learned that while the "needs" in life are important (food, water, shelter), it's the "wants" in life (ice cream, chocolate, sex) that make it worth the effort." Kbordson

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

Quote

I believe it's still legal for people to spank their kids, which is no less painful than a mild electric shock.

It's illegal here in Washington. (I personally disagree with that, but moving on).

Now wait a minute... Why would you think it's ok to hit children, but not ok to give them an electric shock?

Personally, I would not allow my own child to be hit by me or anyone else, and I wouldn't subject them to the treatment at this school either. But if I'm going to say that this school should be shut down for using electric shock to change behavior, then I'm going to say that spanking should be illegal too, because I see both methods as being about the same. (And I think that your comparing the shocks to being hit in the face with a belt is exaggerated; comparing it to spanking would be more accurate.)

Quote

*The Rotenberg Center is the only facility in the country that disciplines students by shocking them, a form of punishment not inflicted on serial killers or child molesters or any of the 2.2 million inmates now incarcerated in U.S. jails and prisons.

Spanking is also "a form of punishment not inflicted on serial killers or child molesters or any of the 2.2 million inmates now incarcerated in U.S. jails and prisons."

Sorry, but this quote is enough from the article for me to not take it seriously. (Hmm, and actually the title "School of Shock" says enough.) I'm not defending the school either, because I don't know enough about it. But I would want information from a better source before forming much of an opinion about it. That article is obviously just going for shock value (no pun intended) rather than accurate reporting.

[billvon 2,406]

> Does parental consent mean anything if it harms the child?

If it could not harm the child, parental consent is not required. The reason you _have_ parental consent forms is to alert the parent that something might harm the kid.

[billvon 2,406]

>>I believe it's still legal for people to spank their kids, which is no less
>>painful than a mild electric shock.

>It's illegal here in Washington. (I personally disagree with that, but moving on).

So it's OK to spank kids.

>We don't subject rapists and murders to these devices and
>torture. Apparently disabled and emotionally disturbed kids have
>less rights than rapists and murderers.

We don't spank rapists either. Does that mean you believe that children have fewer rights than rapists?

That's a rhetorical question; I assume you don't - even though you think it's OK to hurt a child in that way. Indeed, spanking may prevent a greater harm, like being killed by not listening to a parent and running in a busy street.

The only issue here for me is whether it's effective. If it's effective (whether it's an electric shock, or a spanking, or whatever) then that's the more important issue. Determine the effectiveness and then let parents decide how to treat their kids.

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

Indeed, spanking may prevent a greater harm, like being killed by not listening to a parent and running in a busy street.

Until your child is old enough to understand the dangers of running into a busy street, it's probably best to not let them run freely anywhere near a busy street. It's not going to do much good to spank them after they've been hit by a car.

[billvon 2,406]

>Until your child is old enough to understand the dangers of running into
>a busy street, it's probably best to not let them run freely anywhere near a
>busy street. It's not going to do much good to spank them after they've
>been hit by a car.

Agreed. In cases where that's impossible or impractical, though, spanking them when they run in the street may keep them out of the street when there is more traffic.

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

>Until your child is old enough to understand the dangers of running into
>a busy street, it's probably best to not let them run freely anywhere near a
>busy street. It's not going to do much good to spank them after they've
>been hit by a car.

Agreed. In cases where that's impossible or impractical, though, spanking them when they run in the street may keep them out of the street when there is more traffic.

If it's not possible to keep them away from a busy street, then either holding onto them or using a child leash would be more effective (and less harmful) than spanking them, in my opinion.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

(And I think that your comparing the shocks to being hit in the face with a belt is exaggerated; comparing it to spanking would be more accurate.)

I don't see how you can state what is more accurate or not, seeing as you haven't been exposed to either. Did you read the part about the severity of the shock. That or you don't believe that it's true? Comparing a bee sting to a spanking is ridiculous anyway. Adults panic when bees show up. A bee sting is worse than a spanking (unless we're talking about the cases of abuse by teachers which are documented.) By the school's own admission, the second generation GED is many times more powerful than the original.

I guess you could ask Peter if electrical shock is no big deal or not...I'm sure many would say that it can't be as bad as a police-issued taser. Dr. Israel makes these 'shock' devices on his own with no regulation to govern them. He can make them as high-voltage as he wants until someone else dies from a shock (which one Autistic did -white noise helmet and shock prompted a life-ending seizure).

Anyhow, we are getting into levels of severity now. I haven't needed to spank my daughter since she was maybe 4 years old. 3 swats on a tush...and we only use that discipline for actions that would cause harm or injury; ie, she hit her brother with a plastic bat because he took her cookie. She tried to open the door to the fire place. etc. Honestly, we didn't have to use that much at all ever. She is a good kid. If she gets an attitude now, removing priveleges is all that is needed to correct it.

Our sons are different. They wear diapers first off...so a swat on the tush isn't going to inflict any pain. The tone of voice and removal from the situation is usually what is needed because in the first place, most of the time they cannot even understand what they were doing wrong. Thy don't have the cognitive ability to judge why they should not hit their head, why they shouldn't run into a street or jump out of a window. To subject them to a pain, which they CANNOT EVEN ASSOCIATE WITH THE ACTION FOR WHICH IT IS BEING ADMINISTERED, is completely off base. -And remember, my sons are the type of kids that are getting this treatment. They are low-functioning Autistics.

I could fire a taser at my son when he tries to climb onto a dresser, so billvon sure it would incapacitate him enough to not be able to get out of the window or out onto the street. The underlying question is could it be done in a humane way vs an inhumane way.

Yes. I have to do it every day. I am FULLY AWARE that some people would say holding the boys' hands in mine and hugging them on the ground is an 'inhumane restraint'. I am restraining, not inflicting pain. I keep them from hurting themselves or others (well, everyone but me. I get pretty banged up when I have to hold them ) There is a huge difference.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

The only issue here for me is whether it's effective. If it's effective (whether it's an electric shock, or a spanking, or whatever) then that's the more important issue. Determine the effectiveness and then let parents decide how to treat their kids.

billvon with this statement you are saying that there is no such thing as child abuse.

Again I'll admit to being closer to this situation than probably 99% on this forum, and that's why I have to keep pushing back...because these are MY kids they are talking about. This is what someone would have me do to them.
Hey my buddy in high school had a stepmother who had sex with him and a father who put him in the hospital.

He learned to 'respect' his mom and he never borrowed the family car again. By your statement above, no wrong was committed by his mother or father.

Another friend in high school's parents were dope dealers. They kept the little one quiet when they were 'busy' by burning bags of marajuana stems in the fireplace, filling the house with pot smoke. The toddler (my friend's little brother) would pass out on the floor and they'd leave for the night with the 3 year old on the floor alone.

Again, if the ends justifies the means, then the parents committed no wrong.

My boyfriend's dad used to duct tape him from head to toe, along with his little brother, and throw them both in the closet for getting into trouble. He left them in there for the better part of a day. They could breathe through their noses because he didn't tape that.

My husband was beaten with his hot wheels race track, then kicked in the ribs by his mom as a boy.

All ok, because they were effective and it was the parents' choice?

I just think perhaps you worded it a little wrong, because I don't think that you would condone the above actions.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Shotgun 1]

I read some of the "School of Shock" article, but it seems to be written in (what sounds like) a biased and exaggerated way, so I can't take it seriously. I did find this article, which seems a bit more balanced.

I have a TENS unit that can deliver a pretty strong jolt (stronger, I believe, than what they are using on the children). It hurts, but the pain goes away pretty quickly, and I wouldn't compare it to a bee sting (maybe the initial sting, but it doesn't have the same lasting effect).

So, I don't know... I still don't see much difference in spanking vs. using shocks to change a child's behavior.