masterblaster72 0 #1 October 2, 2007 From here: QuoteNearly twice as many U.S. adults are obese compared to European, a key factor leading Americans to suffer more often from cancer, diabetes and other chronic ailments, a study released on Tuesday found. Treatment of these and other chronic diseases adds between $100 billion and $150 billion to the annual health care tab in the United States, according to the report comparing U.S. and European health published online in the journal Health Affairs. Not meant to be a fat-people-bashing thread, but when an individual's problem becomes someone else's, something needs to be done to address the problem. What solutions do you think would help to reduce obesity in the USA, without over-reaching government intervention? Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #2 October 2, 2007 Democratic solution: Introduce FAT-TAX Republican Solution: Make being fat a capital crime. More seriously, a couple of starters: * City planning/Urban development: Create cities that are walkable & get rid of suburbia without sidewalks. The concept of "pedestrian zones" is wide spread in Europe, but you find them here only in a very few coastal cities. * Mandatory cooking classes in high school. I believe, there is a serious lack of home cooking culture in this country - it is either "eating out" (and regular restaurants are healthwise often even worse than MacDonalds) or it's over/preprocessed microwave food with lots of mytery ingredients. In how many US households is dinner cooked from scratch and fresh meat/veggies at least 5/7 days a week? I bet not many ... Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #3 October 2, 2007 I suspect one needs to go the original study - cause the Yahoo write-up also suggests that one overall cause of the greater US health costs is preventative care, e.g., cancer screenings, that increases the overall health budget. (What does that do to the HMO model?) "While Americans appeared to be on the whole sicker than adults in other industrialized countries, the study said more aggressive preventive care could help explain the results for some illnesses." "For example, the study found 12.2 percent of Americans are diagnosed with cancer, more than twice that of Europe. But that is likely due in part to more screening here, the study said." "More than half of Americans are former or current smokers, compared with about 43 percent in the European sample. [i.e., more smokers in US]." /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #4 October 2, 2007 Quote Democratic solution: Introduce FAT-TAX Republican Solution: Make being fat a capital crime. In normal Democratic logic, the Fat-Tax is likely, but it would involve taxing thin and athletic people and giving the money to fat people - which they would use to buy cake. As the fat get fatter, Dems would increase the tax as the obvious solution. In normal Republican logic, the capital crime would be implemented, but never inforced. Except on Congressmen in their own party - for the purposes of PR. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #5 October 2, 2007 Quote Quote Democratic solution: Introduce FAT-TAX Republican Solution: Make being fat a capital crime. In normal Democratic logic, the Fat-Tax is likely, but it would involve taxing thin and athletic people and giving the money to fat people - which they would use to buy cake. As the fat get fatter, Dems would increase the tax as the obvious solution. In normal Republican logic, the capital crime would be implemented, but never inforced. Except on Congressmen in their own party - for the purposes of PR. And Neo-Conservatives will call fat the new terror and will begin to secretly add fat to food causing more people to become fat which will lead to the war on fat which will allow the Neo-Conservatives to spy on us all! Edit: Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I think I'm having an out-of-brain day today."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #6 October 2, 2007 QuoteAnd Neo-Conservatives will call fat the new terror and will begin to secretly add fat to food causing more people to become fat which will lead to the war on fat which will allow the Neo-Conservatives to spy on us all! I'm humbled. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 October 2, 2007 Quote * Mandatory cooking classes in high school. I believe, there is a serious lack of home cooking culture in this country - it is either "eating out" (and regular restaurants are healthwise often even worse than MacDonalds) or it's over/preprocessed microwave food with lots of mytery ingredients. You can try this, but unless you solve the lack of time most Americans feel they have, they'll tend to stick to the faster methods of food. Still, it's worth a shot - maybe a 10 year study where one third are sent to cooking class, one third sent to REAL gym, and one third do nothing like they do currently. Restoring PE in the school is the most important step, imo. We've always eaten like crap, but now we do no exercise as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #8 October 2, 2007 This is easy. If obesity leads to higher healthcare costs, then insurance premiums should be raised accordingly. It's about individual responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #9 October 2, 2007 Quote City planning/Urban development: Create cities that are walkable & get rid of suburbia without sidewalks. The concept of "pedestrian zones" is wide spread in Europe, but you find them here only in a very few coastal cities. what he said. Human beings are meant to walk, but you might not believe that if you look at the stupid way many of our cities & towns are arranged. Stupid zoning laws that mandate residential areas being built away from commercial/business areas. These are causing obesity, fuel dependency, pollution, etc. Build towns the way they used to be: So that you can walk out to run your errands, walk down to the pub/restaurant, etc. Legs will become vestigial organs if this keeps up. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #10 October 2, 2007 Quote In how many US households is dinner cooked from scratch and fresh meat/veggies at least 5/7 days a week? Cheers, T Mine.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #11 October 2, 2007 QuoteThis is easy. If obesity leads to higher healthcare costs, then insurance premiums should be raised accordingly. It's about individual responsibility. I agree. But how do you determine who is obese? BMI is useless and allowing healthcare companies to look at you medical records could be a huge mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #12 October 2, 2007 QuoteThis is easy. If obesity leads to higher healthcare costs, then insurance premiums should be raised accordingly. It's about individual responsibility. But insurance is all about shared responsibility and shared risk.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #13 October 2, 2007 How about cholesterol and percentage of body fat? Have a graduated scale for levels of obesity. Also, have programs (including prescribed drugs) for helping people get/keep their weight down. It's about preventative care, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #14 October 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThis is easy. If obesity leads to higher healthcare costs, then insurance premiums should be raised accordingly. It's about individual responsibility. But insurance is all about shared responsibility and shared risk. While that is partially true, insurance rates are adjusted according to relative percieved risks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #15 October 2, 2007 QuoteIt's about preventative care, right? One would think, yes ... but according to the study sited (or more accurately according to the secondary write-up), preventative care (for all) is responsible for increases in US health costs. Seems to be some contradictions, eh? As the epidemiologists try to get into our heads: correlation does not equal causality. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #16 October 2, 2007 QuoteHow about cholesterol and percentage of body fat? Have a graduated scale for levels of obesity. Also, have programs (including prescribed drugs) for helping people get/keep their weight down. It's about preventative care, right? Again you bring up good points. But cholesterol and body fat is a tricky issue. My dad is thin, has an excellent diet and his cholesterol is high. Genetics can be a pain sometimes. I would like to see most people get a physical every year and maybe work with their GP on maintaing a healthy weight and addressing any health related issues. Maybe health care companies can provide incentives for people to get yearly physicals. I agree with you 110% on preventive care. My neighbor has a kid who is prob pushing 220lbs + and he's only 15. She herself is obese too. Question is how do you deal with situations like that. How do we stop that before it even starts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #17 October 2, 2007 Question is how do you deal with situations like that. How do we stop that before it even starts.Quote Get rid of this BS attitude in our society that we have to accommodate everyone and make them feel good about themselves. Get people to stop hiding behind excuses like genetics make them fat, anyone can be healthy some of us just have to work harder at it. We've created a society that wants to make everyone feel good about themselves, doing things like calling obeisity[sp?] a disease instead of a weakness and not forcing kids who aren't naturally athletic to participate in physical activities so they can become even less athletic and people wonder why we live in a county full of disgustingly unhealthy people.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #18 October 2, 2007 QuoteHow about cholesterol and percentage of body fat? Have a graduated scale for levels of obesity. Measuring body fat is a fairly imprecise science and having premiums based on them is just begging for a lot of lawsuits by women and by usual body types that don't fit the models. At best, you use the same method weekly for a while to develop a trend, but you're never really sure about the exact level. That's one reason why BMI came about - it takes away any thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #19 October 2, 2007 Quotebut when an individual's problem becomes someone else's, something needs to be done to address the problem How about "quit making it somebody else's problem." Obviously, this makes me a cold, cruel heartless individual for suggesting it... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #20 October 3, 2007 Quote Quote In how many US households is dinner cooked from scratch and fresh meat/veggies at least 5/7 days a week? Cheers, T Mine. Me too! Now for my cousin who is 250ish. I'll take two double whoppers w/ extra cheese and a DIET Coke.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 October 3, 2007 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In how many US households is dinner cooked from scratch and fresh meat/veggies at least 5/7 days a week? Cheers, T -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mine. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me too! Now for my cousin who is 250ish. I'll take two double whoppers w/ extra cheese and a DIET Coke. Quote Me three, funny how someone like me who gets up for work at 530 and is going full-bore til 630 at night can manage to cook a healthy dinner and still have time to get to the gym after dinner for a third workout of the day. People who say they can't live a healthy life because of their hectic schedule are full of BSHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,166 #22 October 3, 2007 I do it too. But it's really, really easy to go get some fast food, and it tastes good once you're conditioned to it. Most people pretty naturally like sweet things and fried things (ergo funnel cakes and donuts ). So a whole lot of fast food now is fried and has added sugar (or HFCS). For some people, it comes from not having some "personal" time (i.e. time to recharge your mental batteries). If you're on the go all the time, and don't consider exercise to be recharge time, then you want to take those little moment. I exercise very regularly, but it's never been recharge time; it's easy for me to understand. It takes a certain amount of support to live a lifestyle that includes regular cooking. Someone else to cart the kids around, or do the shopping, or whatever. If I felt I had to choose between quality time with the kids and home cooking, I'd seriously consider quality time with the kids. And if home cooking for your family means that all of them (including the spouse) grouse about your choices, and keep asking why they can't eat fast food, it's hard to keep it up. Doesn't necessarily make it right, but a whole lot easier to understand. Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #23 October 3, 2007 QuoteNot meant to be a fat-people-bashing thread, but when an individual's problem becomes someone else's, something needs to be done to address the problem. What solutions do you think would help to reduce obesity in the USA, without over-reaching government intervention? Unfortunately, the "reasonable" solutions are being drowned out by social-program ideas (like nationalized healthcare and/or insurance). For the adults, there is little that can be done. They, as individuals, must take the first steps to take care of themselves. For the kids, Phys-Ed must be reintroduced as a compulsory class in school, grades K-12. In addition, recess must be allowed in K-6 for a minimum of 30 minutes per day. To combat obesity, we need to stop looking to health care, health insurance, and government programs for the solution, and focus on keeping us in good physical health from the beginning. Starting with that will reduce health care costs, health insurance burdens, and eliminate unnecessary government programs.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 October 3, 2007 You bring up a really good point Wendy, the only person I have to worry about keeping happy is my dog!! And she eats whatever falls on the floor regardless of how healthy it isMy brother asks me everytime I see him what he can do to start getting back in shape, he's married with 2 kids. He's far from being unhealthy his wife cooks great food all the time he just isn't athletic. I've been trying to tell him that everything you do from the time you wake up til the time you crash at the end of the day makes a difference. Little things like intentionally parking at the far end of the parking lot anytime you go somewhere(when you don't have the kids with you), taking the stairs not the elevator, picking up your pace when you walk anywhere, and even if you don't need it, take a backpack with you and throw 20 pounds in it everywhere you go. Something as simple as that will add up to probably a good 2-3000 calories a week. That's almost a whole days worth of food you've just burned off right there. I've been active my whole life so it's easy for me, and being in the military just adds to how active I am, but I see far too many people making excuses to not stay active and then trying to make up for it every January during the new years resolution time. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #25 October 3, 2007 Quote I agree. But how do you determine who is obese? BMI is useless and allowing healthcare companies to look at you medical records could be a huge mistake. You already have to allow insurance company to access your medical record to get an individual health insurance - at least in CA.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kelpdiver 2 #18 October 2, 2007 QuoteHow about cholesterol and percentage of body fat? Have a graduated scale for levels of obesity. Measuring body fat is a fairly imprecise science and having premiums based on them is just begging for a lot of lawsuits by women and by usual body types that don't fit the models. At best, you use the same method weekly for a while to develop a trend, but you're never really sure about the exact level. That's one reason why BMI came about - it takes away any thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #19 October 2, 2007 Quotebut when an individual's problem becomes someone else's, something needs to be done to address the problem How about "quit making it somebody else's problem." Obviously, this makes me a cold, cruel heartless individual for suggesting it... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #20 October 3, 2007 Quote Quote In how many US households is dinner cooked from scratch and fresh meat/veggies at least 5/7 days a week? Cheers, T Mine. Me too! Now for my cousin who is 250ish. I'll take two double whoppers w/ extra cheese and a DIET Coke.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #21 October 3, 2007 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In how many US households is dinner cooked from scratch and fresh meat/veggies at least 5/7 days a week? Cheers, T -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mine. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me too! Now for my cousin who is 250ish. I'll take two double whoppers w/ extra cheese and a DIET Coke. Quote Me three, funny how someone like me who gets up for work at 530 and is going full-bore til 630 at night can manage to cook a healthy dinner and still have time to get to the gym after dinner for a third workout of the day. People who say they can't live a healthy life because of their hectic schedule are full of BSHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,166 #22 October 3, 2007 I do it too. But it's really, really easy to go get some fast food, and it tastes good once you're conditioned to it. Most people pretty naturally like sweet things and fried things (ergo funnel cakes and donuts ). So a whole lot of fast food now is fried and has added sugar (or HFCS). For some people, it comes from not having some "personal" time (i.e. time to recharge your mental batteries). If you're on the go all the time, and don't consider exercise to be recharge time, then you want to take those little moment. I exercise very regularly, but it's never been recharge time; it's easy for me to understand. It takes a certain amount of support to live a lifestyle that includes regular cooking. Someone else to cart the kids around, or do the shopping, or whatever. If I felt I had to choose between quality time with the kids and home cooking, I'd seriously consider quality time with the kids. And if home cooking for your family means that all of them (including the spouse) grouse about your choices, and keep asking why they can't eat fast food, it's hard to keep it up. Doesn't necessarily make it right, but a whole lot easier to understand. Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #23 October 3, 2007 QuoteNot meant to be a fat-people-bashing thread, but when an individual's problem becomes someone else's, something needs to be done to address the problem. What solutions do you think would help to reduce obesity in the USA, without over-reaching government intervention? Unfortunately, the "reasonable" solutions are being drowned out by social-program ideas (like nationalized healthcare and/or insurance). For the adults, there is little that can be done. They, as individuals, must take the first steps to take care of themselves. For the kids, Phys-Ed must be reintroduced as a compulsory class in school, grades K-12. In addition, recess must be allowed in K-6 for a minimum of 30 minutes per day. To combat obesity, we need to stop looking to health care, health insurance, and government programs for the solution, and focus on keeping us in good physical health from the beginning. Starting with that will reduce health care costs, health insurance burdens, and eliminate unnecessary government programs.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 October 3, 2007 You bring up a really good point Wendy, the only person I have to worry about keeping happy is my dog!! And she eats whatever falls on the floor regardless of how healthy it isMy brother asks me everytime I see him what he can do to start getting back in shape, he's married with 2 kids. He's far from being unhealthy his wife cooks great food all the time he just isn't athletic. I've been trying to tell him that everything you do from the time you wake up til the time you crash at the end of the day makes a difference. Little things like intentionally parking at the far end of the parking lot anytime you go somewhere(when you don't have the kids with you), taking the stairs not the elevator, picking up your pace when you walk anywhere, and even if you don't need it, take a backpack with you and throw 20 pounds in it everywhere you go. Something as simple as that will add up to probably a good 2-3000 calories a week. That's almost a whole days worth of food you've just burned off right there. I've been active my whole life so it's easy for me, and being in the military just adds to how active I am, but I see far too many people making excuses to not stay active and then trying to make up for it every January during the new years resolution time. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #25 October 3, 2007 Quote I agree. But how do you determine who is obese? BMI is useless and allowing healthcare companies to look at you medical records could be a huge mistake. You already have to allow insurance company to access your medical record to get an individual health insurance - at least in CA.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
wmw999 2,166 #22 October 3, 2007 I do it too. But it's really, really easy to go get some fast food, and it tastes good once you're conditioned to it. Most people pretty naturally like sweet things and fried things (ergo funnel cakes and donuts ). So a whole lot of fast food now is fried and has added sugar (or HFCS). For some people, it comes from not having some "personal" time (i.e. time to recharge your mental batteries). If you're on the go all the time, and don't consider exercise to be recharge time, then you want to take those little moment. I exercise very regularly, but it's never been recharge time; it's easy for me to understand. It takes a certain amount of support to live a lifestyle that includes regular cooking. Someone else to cart the kids around, or do the shopping, or whatever. If I felt I had to choose between quality time with the kids and home cooking, I'd seriously consider quality time with the kids. And if home cooking for your family means that all of them (including the spouse) grouse about your choices, and keep asking why they can't eat fast food, it's hard to keep it up. Doesn't necessarily make it right, but a whole lot easier to understand. Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #23 October 3, 2007 QuoteNot meant to be a fat-people-bashing thread, but when an individual's problem becomes someone else's, something needs to be done to address the problem. What solutions do you think would help to reduce obesity in the USA, without over-reaching government intervention? Unfortunately, the "reasonable" solutions are being drowned out by social-program ideas (like nationalized healthcare and/or insurance). For the adults, there is little that can be done. They, as individuals, must take the first steps to take care of themselves. For the kids, Phys-Ed must be reintroduced as a compulsory class in school, grades K-12. In addition, recess must be allowed in K-6 for a minimum of 30 minutes per day. To combat obesity, we need to stop looking to health care, health insurance, and government programs for the solution, and focus on keeping us in good physical health from the beginning. Starting with that will reduce health care costs, health insurance burdens, and eliminate unnecessary government programs.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #24 October 3, 2007 You bring up a really good point Wendy, the only person I have to worry about keeping happy is my dog!! And she eats whatever falls on the floor regardless of how healthy it isMy brother asks me everytime I see him what he can do to start getting back in shape, he's married with 2 kids. He's far from being unhealthy his wife cooks great food all the time he just isn't athletic. I've been trying to tell him that everything you do from the time you wake up til the time you crash at the end of the day makes a difference. Little things like intentionally parking at the far end of the parking lot anytime you go somewhere(when you don't have the kids with you), taking the stairs not the elevator, picking up your pace when you walk anywhere, and even if you don't need it, take a backpack with you and throw 20 pounds in it everywhere you go. Something as simple as that will add up to probably a good 2-3000 calories a week. That's almost a whole days worth of food you've just burned off right there. I've been active my whole life so it's easy for me, and being in the military just adds to how active I am, but I see far too many people making excuses to not stay active and then trying to make up for it every January during the new years resolution time. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #25 October 3, 2007 Quote I agree. But how do you determine who is obese? BMI is useless and allowing healthcare companies to look at you medical records could be a huge mistake. You already have to allow insurance company to access your medical record to get an individual health insurance - at least in CA.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
