Way to go, UAW, Just Don't Get It...

[Gawain 0]

Just when GM was showing signs of life, in the face of losing market share on a global scale each year, while just getting some decent products to the market, what does UAW do? They demand still more from an employer that has literally been dying to meet previous demands.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070925/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_talks;_ylt=ArFKgfebbYIVCK98wMYk62us0NUE

Thanks to GM's lack of foresight, and the UAW's growing irresponsible appetite for benefits that the rest of the country seems to live happily without, GM now nets mere dollars per vehicle built while supporting overhead of nearly $2000 per vehicle just to support pension commitments. There's a difference of nearly $25/hr per worker compared with some competitors.

There is something sorely wrong with this picture.

Saturn workers in Spring Hill, TN can look enviously to their Toyota, Honda and Nissan counterparts in TN and KY. One can only hope that they see this and begin to wonder if UAW is really looking out for their best interests.

GM, for whatever reason, has remained a waning beacon of the "old, big, business" of big benefits and lifelong guarantees. Not even the railroad industry follows that model. GM, in order to survive, must cut the fat. UAW, in order to keep itself, and its members relevant, must lead in a new model of representation, finding new ways to guarantee certain benefits.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rushmc 18]

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Just when GM was showing signs of life, in the face of losing market share on a global scale each year, while just getting some decent products to the market, what does UAW do? They demand still more from an employer that has literally been dying to meet previous demands.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070925/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_talks;_ylt=ArFKgfebbYIVCK98wMYk62us0NUE

Thanks to GM's lack of foresight, and the UAW's growing irresponsible appetite for benefits that the rest of the country seems to live happily without, GM now nets mere dollars per vehicle built while supporting overhead of nearly $2000 per vehicle just to support pension commitments. There's a difference of nearly $25/hr per worker compared with some competitors.

There is something sorely wrong with this picture.

Saturn workers in Spring Hill, TN can look enviously to their Toyota, Honda and Nissan counterparts in TN and KY. One can only hope that they see this and begin to wonder if UAW is really looking out for their best interests.

GM, for whatever reason, has remained a waning beacon of the "old, big, business" of big benefits and lifelong guarantees. Not even the railroad industry follows that model. GM, in order to survive, must cut the fat. UAW, in order to keep itself, and its members relevant, must lead in a new model of representation, finding new ways to guarantee certain benefits.

this is not just GM. GM is in talks for the big 3, not just GM

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,647]

How do you feel about the increasing number of companies that have reneged on their former workers' pensions?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pirana 0]

The UAW has become a predatory organization. Somehow, they do not get that driving jobs overseas does not help their membership. Either that, or they do not care. Collect the maximum amount of dues the membership will tolerate, negotiate contracts that are so obviously long-term destructive, lobby heavily for protective financial measures against imports; fabulous tactics.

You'd think they's be ashamed of what they have wrought, but their prideful ignorance is as self-blinding as it is disgusting. Will they ever realize that their tactics are more destructive than constructive.

I can just see them when the last of the plants in which they "represent" workers closes; sitting around a meeting room scratching their heads and asking what went wrong. (Or maybe they'll actually be on a beach laughing at the gullibility of the wage slaves that trusted them to protect their means of livelihood).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NCclimber 0]

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How do you feel about the increasing number of companies that have reneged on their former workers' pensions?

How do you feel about the topic of the OP?

[AWL71 0]

It is a shame that the UAW is making it so difficult for the American automotive indsutry to be competitive. They need to streamline but the UAW wont allow it.

"Normally a company in such straits contracts until it reaches equilibrium. But for GM, shrinkage is not much of an option. Because of its union agreements, the auto maker can't close plants or lay off workers without paying a stiff penalty, no matter how far its sales or profits fall. It must run plants at 80% capacity, minimum, whether they make money or not. Even if it halts its assembly lines, GM must pay laid-off workers and foot their extraordinarily generous health-care and pension costs. Unless GM scores major givebacks from the union, those costs are fixed, at least until the next round of contract talks in two years. The plan has been to run out the clock until actuarial tables tilt in GM's favor (a nice way of saying that older retirees eventually will die off). But with decreasing sales and a smaller slice of the market, that plan backfires -- leaving GM open to an array of highly unattractive possibilities."

So how is GM suppose to run lean and be competitive when the UAW agreement won't allow it? I am all for a company giving their people good benefits but if those benefits damage the strength of the company then the balance is not working.

"Compare that with how the most successful car companies -- Toyota, Nissan, and Honda (HMC ) -- do things. They concentrate research dollars on fewer vehicles, pack them with the latest features and technologies, manufacture them in low-cost, nonunion U.S. factories, and update them relentlessly. Look at the numbers: GM execs doled out $7 billion for capital spending and research and development last year, vs. $15.3 billion for Toyota. The portion of that spent in North America gets spread over GM's 89 auto models and eight divisions, compared with Toyota's 26 nameplates in three divisions. Toyota models average sales of 80,000 units a year in the U.S., whereas GM squeezes out just 52,000 sales per model on average. And Toyota models stay on the market for an average of three years before their next redesign, compared with nearly four for GM's cars."

GM clearly needs to get smaller but the UAW does not want that to happen. This is not 1950. The global economy has made the automotive industry one of the most competitive ever. The attitude that union workers have of a "guaranteed" job is bogus. If you or your company don't perform than that is tuFF. We are all at the mercy of market forces.

Excerpts from "Business Week"

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[normiss 622]

isn't his response on topic to the OP?

If the companies we all work for would treat workers better, the unions would have died off long ago or wouldn't strike. Those of us that don't work under union protection are shat upon time and again as we have NO job protection of any kind....
Having a union to protect employee rights seems like a pretty nice thing to have from my perspective. At the very least the UAW (and a few telecom unions) have protected some for their entire career...some others have pulled the rug out from under retirees. I am always impressed in companies that will lay off or buy out someone on the verge of retirement only to save money and make their quarterly numbers so the veeps can get their multi-million dollar bonuses...

edit to add...some seem to think we can compete fairly with foreign owned companies, and I don't beleive that's true at all. They are able to research and manufacture in countries we are not able to and enjoy an amazingly different cost structure there as well. EPA differences, employee (slave) costs, and they also do not keep their profits in this country just because they have a manufacturing plant here...that money leaves our economy. The playing field is not even by any means. Healthcare and retirement (what a joke) are "covered" by the government in the foreign countries of the company....do we want that here? Really???
I personally don't want government owned land and a cow for my retirement thank you.
I'd rather live in a camper on the DZ!

[kallend 1,647]

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How do you feel about the increasing number of companies that have reneged on their former workers' pensions?

How do you feel about the topic of the OP?

Do you lead such a sheltered life that you cannot make obvious connections?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AWL71 0]

Your point that GM is competing against "slave" costs is bogus. Workers in Japan and Germany are well paid. Korea and China is a different case though. But GMs main competition is Japanese and German automotive companies.

I know people that work for Honda and Toyota plants that are in the states and they are well paid and have great benefits.

My point is that the UAW's pork is not allowing GM to be competitive. The union workers may have great benefits but if they are not careful they will bankrupt the hand that feeds them in 5-10 years time if GM does not get more efficient.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[normiss 622]

being able to assemble foreign made parts in the us doesn't compare. I don't think the foreign cars made in the us use the same manufacturing process we do by any means, most American cars are designed, prototyped, stamped, and assembled here. It is still cheaper for Honda to import the majority of the parts and assemble them here.
Look at the number of shipping containers we're collecting in this country...
so long as some American companies run with the management structure they have in place, they'll never last...but the big execs will continue to pull their millions in bonuses!
I for one think we could use more unions in this country sometimes....the workers are treated worse and worse every year...WE take the brunt of the hits when a business hurts NOT the ones making the decisions that cause the hits...

[Channman 2]

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How do you feel about the increasing number of companies that have reneged on their former workers' pensions?

Seems to be a growing trend for many companies to do away with traditional Pensions to be replaced with 401k programs or in some cases no program. The pensions of many states are in troble as well.

With American families saving -1.3% of their income, the lowest sence the Great Depression and the same individuals dependant on their companies/government to provide ever increasing benefits with little input themselfs is a growing problem.

[Armour666 0]

ya and eaven after years of losses and govermetn grants that kept many of them in jobs the fist renewal when they were back in the Black the UAW went for the throat and gained big conessions.

I just don't understand it when a company stugles dose miminal lay offs and keeps people in job and the fist moment they make money (Not eaven in to a good enough recovery position and after years of losses) the union get pissed saying they are being taken advantage of.

The other thing I can not stand is the senority system they put in place it gives no incentive for people to better them selfs. My brother wen't back to night school at collage and upgrade cources and add more skills to try to get ahead and when he applied for the prometed position they didn't eaven care about that the uninion forced the senority issue and a guy that was there 2 days earlier them him and still no highschool diploma won out.

He quit on the spot he was so disgusted.

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[rehmwa 2]

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as some American companies run with the management structure they have in place, ........I for one think we could use more unions in this country sometimes

For many companies - Why can't the problems be BOTH bad management and corrupt unions?

You guys always argue the either/or position - one side is horrible and the other is perfect.

I've worked in all combinations of bad/good management, and union/nonunion shops.

Bad management makes a bad company - union or not.

Unions make an inefficient and hurting company - bad management or not. And, seniority, rather than productivity, metrics will destroy any company quick. In this case, an entire industry.

As a consumer, the only decent unions I've ever seen have been unions of independent, private contractors that use the unions to certify performance and to provide a basis for training and currency. (In this case, guess what, the union members are ALSO the management of the companies - isn't that odd? it's not if one thinks about it)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 622]

While I haven't specified any specifics on unions, I do agree with one side of your union opinion.

You're in disagreement with yourself it seems.

I still say the general employee in this country could use a better protective structure. It's not like we give them our lives worth of work or anything.

[AWL71 0]

You make a valid point. I am not giving GM a pass. They have failed miserably with their car selection, ie competitor for Accord and Camry. They make good trucks and the Corvette is an amazing car but they failed elsewhere. They are starting to turn the corner with Cadillac but who wants an Impala? So GMs bad management is made even worse by the agreements they have with the union. Both sides are to blame and it will take both sides making concessions to come out on top. I hope that happens because American industry needs to remain strong.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[billvon 2,427]

>It's not like we give them our lives worth of work or anything.

?? How many people in the US only work for one company their whole lives? How many are required to?

If you don't like a company, quit. If the government forced you to work for one company your whole life, I could see how you might need a "protective structure." But the best protection you have is your own good judgment. Choose good companies and quit bad ones; that way a) you will work for a good company and b) bad companies will go under.

[normiss 622]

Maybe it's the generation I grew up in, but I'm a little envious of those that have spent their lives on one job at one company.
Right up until they're ready to retire and then get laid off/bought out and firmly reamed by someone they gave a lot to.

Retirement programs don't always get protected when you change companies although some of that has and is still changing for the better. Not everyone is a financial wizard with their retirement funding.

[BillyVance 34]

Unions are by and far pretty much a failure. Sure, you get to have your job protected and get great pay, for a number of years anyway, and then the company goes under or files for bankrupcy or restructures.

With Alabama making a gradual entrance to the automobile manufacturing industry with Mercedes, Honda and Kia operating huge plants, they are using lessons learned by watching the Detroit companies. One of them is NO FUCKING UNIONS if they can help it!!!

The average pay is about $23 per hour at these companies in Alabama and they are doing very well. To think that the unions can make things better is folly.

And that's just my opinion.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[normiss 622]

those "bribery" payments KIA makes every year to North Korea to "not invade" will go a long way in their financials I'm sure. And anybody that thinks KIA is a quality product that will last as long as some of the competitors...goes right along with the entire mindset of disposible products.
Maybe Chevy has been making similar payments to Canada??

[lawrocket 3]

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If the companies we all work for would treat workers better, the unions would have died off long ago or wouldn't strike.

No they wouldn't have. Unions are big business. Unions make loads of money (guess why the mob moved in on unions? BIG, BIG, BIG money).

Why do unions require dues payments? In 2006, the UAW had 538,448 members. The UAW brought in dues of about $191 million, which averages out to $375 per member last year.

IT's a 190 million dollar per year business that makes its money by taking money from the people it claims to help.

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the very least the UAW (and a few telecom unions) have protected some for their entire career

Highlighted, there. I has protected SOME but not all. Unions are very good at sealing things up for the established employees and dues payers. Meanwhile, the young, the new employees - those most in need of a union's services - get hosed.

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I am always impressed in companies that will lay off or buy out someone on the verge of retirement only to save money and make their quarterly numbers so the veeps can get their multi-million dollar bonuses

And I am always impressed that unions let it happen and don't help much, lest the shop stewards find themselves not making as much money.

And a final note - it is BECAUSE of the huge benefits that the companies paid out to employees in the past that they cannot afford to do it anymore.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[johndh1 0]

UAW is pushing hard to get into the Honda and Mercedes-Benz plants here in Alabama. I am not directly involved, but I live near the Honda plant, and many employees are members of the gym I work for. They don't understand the audacity of what UAW thinks they can do for them (other than profit themselves) - average wage $53,000 a year, Honda has never "laid off" an employee in its history, excellent benefits, etc.

I also understand that the Honda plant has done so well here that if they chose, they could close the place completely and not lose any money by relocating.

Roll Tide Roll

[lawrocket 3]

That's part of the problem UAW is having - decreasing numbers. They lost about 20k members in 2006. The new plants are not unionized and it shows by the profitability.

Unions WERE a good thing. They WERE a good thing. Not so much, anymore. They did their job wonderfully, but now are in the SOLE business of maintaining their own existence.

I personally do not have a problem with this. I'm a capitalist and probably should have gone into the union racket. But unions are exempt from antitrust laws (and the K-12 education racket).

Read this case: Hunt v Cromboch. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=325&invol=821

In that case a Union decided to put someone out of business for pure spite and got away with it because of the antitrust exemption.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 622]

I can't disagree with that...only add that not all unions work that way. I have never worked for one...only around them in some job shops and they seemed to take better care of union members than anybody would even think of taking care of us contractors. Some industries have simply been hit very hard by our government willing to export jobs overseas. It's not saving us much from my perspective.

and as far as the Honda relocating comments from the other poster...local communities always are willing to offer some unbelievable incentives to get companies into their communities...look at Disney in Orlando, Boeing's recent move to Chicago...some incentives are simply amazing and that's what has lured the auto manufacturers to the south central us in the first place...so I'm very sure there are many areas of the country a number of companies could relocate to and even make money off of the move..."business expenses and restructuring charges" columns and all..

[johndh1 0]

I should clarify that the Honda relocating comment is not a paraphrasing of an official or unofficial statement by the company - only more evidence to the question of what good would the unionization of the company do to benefit all involved.

I don't actually think the relocating will even be an issue since I don't believe that the plant will be unionized anyway.

I agree fully with lawrocket's union assessment - today, with our instant information, it's much harder to keep things under the table and out of the public eye - if people in one plant get royally screwed, the nation knows about it instantly, and it reflects on them, so the union is for the most part obsolete.

At the same time, I have mixed feeling when I see close friends (union members) who worked for airlines for decades either laid off, or had their pay cut significantly after 9/11, and their pensions reduced to nothing. That by itself is no airline executive's fault, but the fact that so many of those same executives ended up with millions of dollars in bonuses, stock options, and kept their Golden Parachutes throughout the "cost-cutting," all the while our government gave them billions of dollars of our money.

Almost makes me as angry as looking at the health care and retirement plans of our Congressmen and Senators for all their...hard work. (Note: not a statement advocating socializing health care in the U.S.)

Roll Tide Roll

[billvon 2,427]

>Do you lead such a sheltered life that you cannot make obvious connections?

Your one warning.