Clinton Health Care....Part II

[Gawain 0]

Jeez Bill.

Critical care is not denied to anyone. Sen. Clinton's plan isn't health care, it's health insurance. Forcing regulation on it is going to make it go up, and the quality of care is going to go down.

Already, too many doctors have to "report" to the "system" of insurance to provide care.

If you really want to reduce health care costs, insurance, and increase the quality of care and improve health, then we must address the shitty diets that too many Americans are indulging in. Stop going to the f**k**g McDs and BK and KFC and take a thirty minute walk four nights a week for a start.

Our health care system is the best in the world. The problem isn't the system, the problem is too many people expecting the system to work miracles and undo the Big-Mac condition.

If Americans took better care of themselves, health care wouldn't be so overtaxed, expensive and the insurance system wouldn't be so restrictive.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[wmw999 2,123]

Quote

Our health care system is the best in the world.

No. Our top-tier health care is probably the best in the world. But calling it a system should take into account all of the users, not just the ones who have access to it because of either insurance or money.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[willard 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Ok you are clearly a Bush-conservative

Conservative. Bush and conservative just dont blend. I'm sure you wouldnt like to be referred to as a Carter Liberal would you? Or maybe you would.

Quote

you'd prefer to pay to kill people than to care for them.

Thats right John, I'm in the bushes outside the ER just snipen off kids.

Quote

Clearly the dead Iraqi children need to be killed.

Where the hell did that come from?

Don't pay no mind to the comment about the children. That's just John's way of changing the subject to another Bush-bashing thread.

And NO, John, the dead Iraqi children did not need to be killed. They were already dead. Otherwise they would be live Iraqi children.

Tens of thousands of dead in Iraq, including children, in a war started by conservatives. I have yet to hear a single conservative voice complaining about the cost to taxpayers of the war, but you are in unison complaining about taxes paying for healthcare.

There's no disputing that you'd rather pay for a war than to help people with health care.

And there is no disputing you feel you can make decisions for other people....just like all the rest of the bleeding heart liberals who pervade our educational facilities.
I would rather not have to fund a war, so you are wrong there. Or health care for that matter. But this thread is not about whether anyone wants to fund health care...it is about being told we have to have insurance. You do enough bitching about the way Bush supposedly has eroded away your rights, why aren't you raising a fuss about this? Maybe it's because you want the country to evolve into a state where we rely on the government to tell us what we need.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Because it is speaker's corner.... and I just can't resist.....

How do the illegal residents figure in. I mean they don't have to pay taxes, I presume as they are illegal they are 'under the radar' in the new system, yet are the majority of the ones in the ER for the sniffles and such most of the time (this is not a slam, I worked in a rural hospital and the migrants and families-think LARGE families- use the ER as their personal primary physician)

If the government can require I have health insurance to solve this 'problem', I don't see too huge a jump to requiring me to be on birth control to control the population or overloading the medical system in that regard as well.

I agree with Gawain : Forcing regulation on it is going to make it go up, and the quality of care is going to go down.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[complexity 0]

Quote

Quote

Our health care system is the best in the world.

No. Our top-tier health care is probably the best in the world. But calling it a system should take into account all of the users, not just the ones who have access to it because of either insurance or money.

Wendy W.

You make a good point. Its a myth that the US has the best health care system in the world. In fact, out of most industrialized countries, the US is far behind in quality and health outcomes. For those that are willling to pay at some of the specialized hospitals or integrated systems, yes, they will get the most advanced technology and latest treatments. But as far as what is available to the population, it is very tiered.

The question of health care coverage and whether individuals have a RIGHT to health coverage is truly a philosophical question. Some believe it is a commodity like any other and that the market should prevail and that it is a decision that belongs to the individual. Others believe that everyone has a right to a certain standard of care and coverage. The problem that we have here in the US is that we have both systems.. its the dirty little secret. We have both socialized medicine (45% of the country is under govt. health care) and the rest are either private/employer based coverage. And even those that are not covered, can get care at the ER as hospitals are required to provide care.

in my view, there is a definite need to do something in our health care system. It is definitely hemoraging badly. For those that want a market system -- well, there is no market right now. For those that want single payer government -- well there is no one government system. Its really going to take the involvement and hard decisions by every group -- and that includes the consumer who right now doesn't want his choices limited but wants everything to be free and wants to eat all the donuts in the world.

Face it -- health care is a commodity like everything else -- and there is a limited amount of money to spend. So at some point we have to make some hard decisions, before the system blows up.

just my little opinion.

[namgrunt 0]

Shrillary care..hummmm
I think of Canada,England not so good

as for illegal aliens,,easy she will just make them legal..so easy

as for terrorist extreamist young people..easy shoot them

the sad truth is it really does not matter who or which party you vote for they ALL lie cheat,steal,

proffessional politicians ALL suck,and we pay ,that is if you work and pay taxes anyway

here is my guess as to the next pres. and vice pres.
hillary/obama

after all we really only have to make the terrorists LIKE us and ask the illegals to go home,

talk about the dumbing down of the American publick,but then again only 25% will even bother to vote

remember
napalm sticks to kids

lets the flames begin

.

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[Bdog 0]

Quote

>Government has no business in health care.

Yes, it does, because most americans feel compassion, and we are not willing to let a 20 year old woman bleed to death in the street - even if she can't pay for care, and even if the injury was her fault. And that means that we DO have business in health care as a country.

Turn it around. Let's say a hospital turned away that woman and she died on the sidewalk. Many people (including you, I'd wager) would feel that an injustice had been done. Some would call out for people to be fired, for the hospital to be penalized for its barbaric act of greed.

Well, the end result of that sort of thing is that we are going to end up paying for public health care to some degree. So no matter how many millions of words flow from either side of the debate, we have a degree of socialized medicine here already.

And as a famous man once said - we've now determined what it is, now we're just trying to set the price.

And what goverment program has ever been run efficiently? This will turn out to be another social security scam...The goverment will have another hand in our pockets.

_________________________________________

---Future Darwin Award recipient-

[Thanatos340 1]

Quote

the sad truth is it really does not matter who or which party you vote for they ALL lie cheat,steal,

proffessional politicians ALL suck,and we pay ,that is if you work and pat taxes anyway

Well said Bob.

Want Health Insurance?? Get a fuckin Job.
Cant find a Job? Move.
Not qualified for a Job? Do something about that.
Dont want a Job? Tough Shit.
Too sick to work.. We call that Medicare and Medicaid. Already got it.

Oh.. Dont expect your employer to pay for your Insurance. Make them give YOU the money and get your own Insurance. Once that starts happening where people can SHOP for insurance, The market will get much more competitive and rates will go down. The biggest problem I think we have now is that people DON’T get to pick their insurance, They let their employer do it for them.

[billvon 2,400]

>And what goverment program has ever been run efficiently?

WIC. The NTSB. ATC. The CDC.

>The goverment will have another hand in our pockets.

If you end up paying less overall, what does it matter whose hand is in your pocket?

[willard 0]

Quote

>And what goverment program has ever been run efficiently?

WIC. The NTSB. ATC. The CDC.

>The goverment will have another hand in our pockets.

If you end up paying less overall, what does it matter whose hand is in your pocket?

Don't tell Kallend that ATC is efficiently run.
And don't get me started on CDC.

[billvon 2,400]

>Critical care is not denied to anyone.

WHAT??? You SUPPORT socialized medicine? I'm shocked!

Just kidding. I agree; thus we have a de facto two tier system. I merely propose formalizing it so that doctors, hospitals, EMT's and first responders are not fucked over for providing that critical care.

>Our health care system is the best in the world.

Not by any metric anyone has come up with - unless "most money spent per patient" equals "best." But if you want to live long, or see your children survive, there are far better systems than ours.

That means that we're not doing a great job at health care. You could live longer and see your children more likely to survive in another country. I think we can do better than that.

>The problem isn't the system, the problem is too many people expecting
>the system to work miracles and undo the Big-Mac condition.

Definitely true. But try suggesting that and you're labeled a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou liberal health nut. Bike to work? Eat at home? That's for losers!

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

>And what goverment program has ever been run efficiently?

WIC. The NTSB. ATC. The CDC.

>The goverment will have another hand in our pockets.

If you end up paying less overall, what does it matter whose hand is in your pocket?

Spoken like a true Socialist.

Because some of us don't like it when the govt. forces it's hand in our pockets. Some of us like to decide how to spend our money and then put our own hands in our own pockets when WE feel it's appropriate.

[billvon 2,400]

>Because some of us don't like it when the govt. forces it's hand in our
>pockets.

You support the biggest optional government hand of all (the half trillion dollar war) so forgive me if I find your distaste amusing. What you meant to say is "I am fine with government hands in YOUR pocket as long as it's for something I support." That's fine - but other people will apply the same standard to you, and there will be more support for saving american lives than killing foreigners.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

>Because some of us don't like it when the govt. forces it's hand in our
>pockets.

You support the biggest optional government hand of all (the half trillion dollar war) so forgive me if I find your distaste amusing. What you meant to say is "I am fine with government hands in YOUR pocket as long as it's for something I support." That's fine - but other people will apply the same standard to you, and there will be more support for saving american lives than killing foreigners.

Right.. and if Clinton had taken OBL when offered, 9/11 wouldn't have happened and Saddam would have his nukes by now just like Syria. So lets not ramble down that road.

I thought we were discussing healthcare.

[Bdog 0]

Okay, and your response is based upon what figures? WIC seems to be corrupt as hell. NTSB is the only game in town so who is to say. ATC is using decades old equipment, their staff is under paid and according to a news report a few years ago the employees suffer from work related stress medical retirements at an alarming rate. They had two near collisions in California in recent weeks. Goverment run health care? Less bang for our buck? No thanks

_________________________________________

---Future Darwin Award recipient-

[billvon 2,400]

>and if Clinton had taken OBL when offered . . .

He tried, and was crucified by the GOP as I recall.

>Saddam would have his nukes by now just like Syria.

So you are saying you are glad that Clinton didn't take out OBL, because Saddam would now have nukes. That's fine - but you are arguing against yourself here.

>I thought we were discussing healthcare.

Indeed we were. Care to?

[freethefly 6]

Quote

it is about being told we have to have insurance.

Do you feel so strongly about having the pesky mandatory car insurance? How dare the government get involved with my car!
Isn't this plan similar to the plan in Massachusets?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

it is about being told we have to have insurance.

Do you feel so strongly about having the pesky mandatory car insurance? How dare the government get involved with my car!
Isn't this plan similar to the plan in Massachusets?

Apples and Oranges. Automobile liabiity insurance is the only insurance required by the Gov. and it only protects a driver you hit. Your lein-holder may require additional insurance to cover their investment. There is no requirement (at least where I live) to cover your own medical bills.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

How do the illegal residents figure in. I mean they don't have to pay taxes, I presume as they are illegal they are 'under the radar' in the new system, yet are the majority of the ones in the ER for the sniffles and such most of the time

but they do pay taxes - sales tax in particular and if they have a W2 job with a fake SSN, they probably don't file to get their withholding back. If they are paid with cash, they wouldn't earn enough to owe any income tax.

Quote

If the government can require I have health insurance to solve this 'problem', I don't see too huge a jump to requiring me to be on birth control to control the population or overloading the medical system in that regard as well.

You're already required to have health insurance - Medicare costs you 3.3% of your salary (employer pays half). Been that way for decades.

You're already required to have [crappy] retirement insurance. That costs you 12.4% of your first 90some thousand in income, again with half coming from your employer.

Younger people would benefit if employers paid the health insurance costs in salary and let you shop for an appropriate plan. We'd all benefit if removing the costs of the uninsured simplified the process, though some paper pushers would have to go into tax preparation instead.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

>Critical care is not denied to anyone.

WHAT??? You SUPPORT socialized medicine? I'm shocked!

Just kidding. I agree; thus we have a de facto two tier system. I merely propose formalizing it so that doctors, hospitals, EMT's and first responders are not fucked over for providing that critical care.

>Our health care system is the best in the world.

Not by any metric anyone has come up with - unless "most money spent per patient" equals "best." But if you want to live long, or see your children survive, there are far better systems than ours.

I disagree. If you want to live longer and watch your children grow up you need to take care of your self. Stop eating tubs of lard for a diet and not get diabetes.

Again, our system, as a whole is the best in the world. If it weren't then people would not be coming here for care they can still get for "free" in their socialized-medicine-home-countries.

Quote

>The problem isn't the system, the problem is too many people expecting
>the system to work miracles and undo the Big-Mac condition.

Definitely true. But try suggesting that and you're labeled a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou liberal health nut. Bike to work? Eat at home? That's for losers!

I suppose...I'll call it more libertarian.

All I know is this. Government insurance programs are not affordable. Anyone here have any feedback about how flood.gov type insurance works?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[airdvr 197]

On a brighter note I think HillBill for '08 is done. SHe's put the big "healthcare" bullseye on her back once again and she'll get run over by it once again.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

>And what goverment program has ever been run efficiently?

WIC. The NTSB. ATC. The CDC.

>The goverment will have another hand in our pockets.

If you end up paying less overall, what does it matter whose hand is in your pocket?

Don't tell Kallend that ATC is efficiently run.
And don't get me started on CDC.

I've never had a problem with ATC. I will have a serious problem if the airlines' grab for ATC comes off, and so will you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Ok you are clearly a Bush-conservative if you'd prefer to pay to kill people than to care for them.

Clearly the dead Iraqi children need to be killed.

At least you are honest.

Wow. It certainly sounds like Kallend is calling someone a baby killer.

Does that qualify as a PERSONAL ATTACK?

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

Let's say a hospital turned away that woman and she died on the sidewalk. Many people (including you, I'd wager) would feel that an injustice had been done. Some would call out for people to be fired, for the hospital to be penalized for its barbaric act of greed.

WOW Bill, thanks for the drama. Now what does that have to do with the BITCH trying to be in charge of my health care. Here is the question I want to know. How the hell are going to pay for it? If my taxes go up at all I dont want it. The govt controls to much of my money as it is.

Your gripe is health care? taxes? or just irrepressable misogyny?

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[willard 0]

Quote

Quote

it is about being told we have to have insurance.

Do you feel so strongly about having the pesky mandatory car insurance? How dare the government get involved with my car!
Isn't this plan similar to the plan in Massachusets?

The government owns the roads we drive on. Driving on them is considered a privilege, not a right. If they want to require insurance to cover damages you may cause while driving on their roads they are not imposing on any right in any way.