How to control healthcare costs in the United States

[kallend 1,679]

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Which country feeds a lot of the world? US

Which went to teh moon? US

Developed the PC and MAC? US

Most Nobel's in medicine? US

Best fighter planes? US

Best food at lowest cost? US

Best medical equipment? US

Best disease control (CDC)? HellifIKnow, but CDC might not suck too bad

And on and on.......


Things like SHC tend to stifle innovation and hard work.


The wealthiest, most productive country in the world? US

Of course, a bunch of the things you listed are government run (NASA, CDC, the Air Force, many of the universities where the Nobelists did their work).

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The least socialist and most free-market? Dunno, but it is most certainly the US

Considering that you "dunno", it's strange that you are most certain

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nathaniel 0]

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The least socialist and most free-market? Dunno, but it is most certainly the US

Hogwash. Relative measures and all, but the US has huge subsidies all over the place. Agriculture, insurance (not just health), retirement, transportation, scientific research, finance, etc and the US vigorously defends them in spite of looming penalties from free trade institutions such as the WHO.

We have many market distorting elements in our economy. We are not the best at being free but rather the best at throwing our weight around. Helps that our economy has the most weight to throw around...

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[freethefly 6]

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For society to be at its best, society needs to get rid of the drags, doesn't it?

Do you goose step in public? or only in the privacy of you own personal Third Reich.
Hell, if I were to start killing off the drags of society, I'd start with idiot lawyers. You know, those greedy little pigs whom have there shit stained snouts in every nook and cranny.
You want to blame every one but your own kind. Your kind are the drag that should be cut. Just in the last hour at least 5 greedy lawyer commercials have assualted my senses with dribble on how they can get me the most money possible for whatever it is that ails me. Shit!!! What ails me is greedy, grease ball lawyers that spout off about how they know shit all about everything when, in fact, what comes out of their mouth is nothing but gibberish.
You really want to help fix the heatlthcare system? Pull all of the slimeball lawyers out of the dr.'s office and let dr.'s do their job.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[1969912 0]

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The least socialist and most free-market? Dunno, but it is most certainly the US

Hogwash. Relative measures and all, but the US has huge subsidies all over the place. Agriculture, insurance (not just health), retirement, transportation, scientific research, finance, etc and the US vigorously defends them in spite of looming penalties from free trade institutions such as the WHO.

We have many market distorting elements in our economy. We are not the best at being free but rather the best at throwing our weight around. Helps that our economy has the most weight to throw around...

I know. That's why I put "least" and "most" in the sentence. Perhaps that's what you meant by "Relative measures and all." If the description I gave applies better to another country, let me know, and I'll retract the statement. Also, if it's meaningless because one would have to examine the effect of each subsidy, price control, etc., etc. for every country, to make it valid, let me know.

thanks

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

It depends upon how you define "dunno".

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[DFWAJG 4]

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here's an idea: PREVENTION.

Here's a rebuttal.

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As Dr. Mark R. Chassin, a former New York state health commissioner, says, preventive care "reduces costs, yes, for the individual who didn't get sick. But that savings is overwhelmed by the cost of continuously treating everybody else."

Yes, treating everyone who is abusing themselves. that article still emphasizes curative care. prevention isn't "ok, now let's loose weight." Prevention is "eat healthfully and exercise, don't get fat to begin with."

[1969912 0]

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...treating everyone who is abusing themselves.

Does insurance cover that?


Sorry, couldn't help it.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

The Most Economically Free Country is NOT the US, as I had Claimed Earlier

Unfortunately, the highest ranked Nation does not produce the products that I desire, it was neccessary to use the #3 ranked nation in order to produce the desird products, the USA

XXXXXX--UNDER CONSTRUCTION--XXXXXXXX


Economic Freedom of the World: 2006 Annual Report, http://www.cato.org/pubs/efw/

Top five countries in order of rank


Hong Kong 8.7/10

Singapore 8.5/10

New Zealand 8.2/10 (tie)

Switzerland 8.2/10 (tie)

United States 8.2/10 (tie)



--------------------------

--------------------------

It is my belief that Economic Freedom promotes creation, innovation, wealth, Human Welfare
freedom from opression, freedom of enjoyment, etc., and that the US is a good example.


Which country feeds a lot of the world? US

First Fission Weapon? US

Which went to the moon? US

Developed the PC and MAC? US

Most Nobel's in medicine? US

Best fighter planes? US

Best food at lowest cost? US

Best medical equipment? US

Best disease control and research facility (CDC)? US

The wealthiest, most productive country in the world? US

Best violent action movies? US

Constitutionally Guaranteed Right to Bear Arms? US
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"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[kallend 1,679]

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First Fission Weapon? US

ANOTHER government program.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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First Fission Weapon? US

ANOTHER government program.

Dam good thing too. You might be speaking German otherwise.

But, maybe, that is what you would have wanted?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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And the question is, how to do it? Establish a Lifestyle Police?

CNN Reports, K. Chetry looking hot, "In a strange turn of events, a total stranger to the political scene, a George A. Russia, has just leaped to the front of the polls as the front runner for the Democratic Party Nomination for president. He was not available for comment. In further news, Lindsey Lohan,......"

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Do you goose step in public? or only in the privacy of you own personal Third Reich.
Hell, if I were to start killing off the drags of society, I'd start with idiot lawyers............mouth is nothing but gibberish.
You really want to help fix the heatlthcare system? Pull all of the slimeball lawyers out of the dr.'s office and let dr.'s do their job.

Nice rant. Were you ALSO doing that "tongue in cheek" like rocket was? Or did you not recognize his wry writing style?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

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But who decides what was avoidable and what was not?

The same people who decide who gets what under a socialized system of medicine.

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I don't disagree with you that there are a lot of things that can be removed through prevention and education.

Actually, I disagee that education can remove a lot of things. People know that no exercise, high fat, high alcohol, diets with tobacco to boot will kill you. Yet, we've got lifestyle-related diseases responsible for the majority of hospital admissions in the US.

People know. They just don't care. Why should they worry about it? THey're covered. Education doesn't seem to be doing well at all. People know the risks they are taking and take them anyway. In a system where others pay for a person's risky behavior, what do you think the government's stance will be?

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Or take it one step further remove all the unnecessary bad things. But there's two sides to that too...............

one side - get rid of all the things bad like cigarettes. There's absolutely no point to them....they serve no purpose whatsoever.

But then there's the other side where does it stop.......high fat foods, alcohol, etc. There's no purpose to high fat foods.....oh it tastes good.....but there's hardly any nutritional value and they cause more diseases than that taiwanese hooker over there. Same with alcohol......I like a drink. But it causes diseases, is addictive, and is a drug.

Actually, you have accounted for the fact that high-fat food tastes good. Nicotine has soothing effects. There are individual benefits to them.

But you've also hit on something else that socialism will do. Ban tobacco. And trans fat. And alcohol. Etc. It won't work, but they'll ban it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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>For society to be at its best, society needs to get rid of the drags, doesn't it?

I assume you're kidding there.

I find this to be repugnant. But in terms of the rationing that will occur, the socialist system would look to preferential treatment of those who produce in the society. Thus, the 85 year-old will not receive extraordinary care. The 30 year old will.

It's the way it'll be.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,679]

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First Fission Weapon? US

ANOTHER government program.

Dam good thing too. You might be speaking German otherwise.

But, maybe, that is what you would have wanted?

How did the Manhattan Project affect the outcome of the war in Europe 1939-45?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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First Fission Weapon? US

ANOTHER government program.

Dam good thing too. You might be speaking German otherwise.

But, maybe, that is what you would have wanted?

How did the Manhattan Project affect the outcome of the war in Europe 1939-45?

Do you ever stay on topic?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,679]

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First Fission Weapon? US

ANOTHER government program.

Dam good thing too. You might be speaking German otherwise.

But, maybe, that is what you would have wanted?

How did the Manhattan Project affect the outcome of the war in Europe 1939-45?

Do you ever stay on topic?

I didn't introduce the topic of the development of fission weapons. YOU COMMENTED ON IT (your double standard is showing). Once it's introduced, commenting on it is fair game.

SO how about answering the question without evasion?

Edited to add - it occurs to me that your response suggests that you aren't even aware of the relation between the Manhattan Project and fission weapons, and that fission weapons weren't used in the European theater.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freethefly 6]

More or less "tongue in cheek" but, I do see that lawyers are also responsible for the rise in healthcare as well as malpractice insurance. Since 7am this morning there has been at least 10 lawyer commercials claiming to get their clients the largest settlement for everything from malpractice to a fender bender.
I realize that lawyers are needed for a number of legitimate cases yet, there are a high number of ambulance chasers who are partialy responsible for the rise in malpractice insurance. Doctor cuts off the wrong leg? Fine, he should be held responsible. Doctor misdiagnose and the patient suffers even further. The doctor should be held responsible. An infection sets in, a patient does not respond to treatment or anything that a doctor cannot possibly have control over there is often a lawyer pushing for a lawsuit. That is bullshit.
Lawrocket says some things that are literaly screwed up. Such as...

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Got HIV? Short of pediatric or some form of contamination (i.e. transfusions), we all know how to prevent it. You didn't listen. Fuck you.

I have HIV, should I be killed off because some fucknut lawyer thinks I am a "drag on society".
Hell, I can say the samething about someone who slipped on ice and broke their neck. Hell, they knew the risk of walking on ice. Fuck them. I can say the same about someone who develops colon cancer. Fuck them. They knew there was the possiblity that after a certian age that they could develop this form of cancer. Probably ate too much red meat. Their own fucking fault. Paralyzed in a car accident driving to work? Car accident wasn't your fault? You know damn well, that everytime you drive a car that an accident can occur. Fuck you, it's your own damn fault. You could had walked thus avoiding the possibilty of being in a car accident.
I don't need some mouthpeice telling me that my HIV is my own fault. I fully realize it. Yet, at the time that a contracted the virus there was little said about it. I've never even heard of HIV until Feb. 1995. I have heard of AIDS but thought that only gay people caught it. Kind of stupid, uh? Should that preclude me from any healthcare? They way I read lawrockets little diatribe is that anyone who is ill due to something they did should be cast to the garbage heap, promptly. So much for care and compassion.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rushmc 18]

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First Fission Weapon? US

ANOTHER government program.

Dam good thing too. You might be speaking German otherwise.

But, maybe, that is what you would have wanted?

How did the Manhattan Project affect the outcome of the war in Europe 1939-45?

Do you ever stay on topic?

I didn't introduce the topic of the development of fission weapons. YOU COMMENTED ON IT (your double standard is showing). Once it's introduced, commenting on it is fair game.

SO how about answering the question without evasion?

Edited to add - it occurs to me that your response suggests that you aren't even aware of the relation between the Manhattan Project and fission weapons, and that fission weapons weren't used in the European theater.

I know what the the project is and you are correct. I should have said japanees not german. I was just thinking in the context of that war. So, now that I have corrected myself, (with your help) My point still stands

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,473]

>Do you ever stay on topic?

Now THAT'S funny!

[lawrocket 3]

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Do you goose step in public? or only in the privacy of you own personal Third Reich.

No. As I explained, I find a system that would effectively euthanize those who are unproductive to society to be repugnant. HOWEVER, I stated that if people place inexpensive socialized healthcare as their primary goals, then choices will have to be made about who shall receive the scarce resources.

It is not my desire for this to happen. It is my preduction about what will happen IF SHC BECOMES A REALITY IN THE UNITED STATES. You understand that. I know you do.

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You want to blame every one but your own kind.

Wrong. I posted about tort reform earlier and in many other circumstances. I believe that lawyers are making disasters of a number of things. I find lawyers advertising the PI cases to be horros that reflect poorly upon my profession. It's a reflection of me, and I detest it, much like skydivers don't like the fact that they are portrayed as sociopathic drug dealers and reckless adrenaline junkies.

But I have also stated that tort reform will necessarily impicate the rights of those who legitimately deserve redress. And tough choices will need to be made for THAT, as well. What do we do with a person who has suffered permanent paralysis from an error during a laminectomy? Say, "Tough going, bro. But at least your healthcare is free."

As I have stated before, there will be WINNERS and LOSERS in any system. Go to SHC, then WINNERS and LOSERS will exist, just like anything else. The difference is that the GOVERNMENT will select the WINNERS and LOSERS.

So, your post provided what is, indeed, a PERFECT example of that which I speak. An important issue in any SHC system is tort reform (governments doing nice things for people, like treating them for "free" cannot be expected to provide care without medical error. So governments will insulate themselves from such liabiliy. Problem solved - except for the poor souls who fall victim to it - who will be the other losers in that system.)

Lawyers will be losers (I don't necessarily have a problem with this.)
Injured patients will be losers. (I have a problem with this.)

Now, does this post constitute a "goose step?"

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[sv3n 0]

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But who decides what was avoidable and what was not?

The same people who decide who gets what under a socialized system of medicine.

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I don't disagree with you that there are a lot of things that can be removed through prevention and education.

Actually, I disagee that education can remove a lot of things. People know that no exercise, high fat, high alcohol, diets with tobacco to boot will kill you. Yet, we've got lifestyle-related diseases responsible for the majority of hospital admissions in the US.

People know. They just don't care. Why should they worry about it? THey're covered. Education doesn't seem to be doing well at all. People know the risks they are taking and take them anyway. In a system where others pay for a person's risky behavior, what do you think the government's stance will be?

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Or take it one step further remove all the unnecessary bad things. But there's two sides to that too...............

one side - get rid of all the things bad like cigarettes. There's absolutely no point to them....they serve no purpose whatsoever.

But then there's the other side where does it stop.......high fat foods, alcohol, etc. There's no purpose to high fat foods.....oh it tastes good.....but there's hardly any nutritional value and they cause more diseases than that taiwanese hooker over there. Same with alcohol......I like a drink. But it causes diseases, is addictive, and is a drug.

Actually, you have accounted for the fact that high-fat food tastes good. Nicotine has soothing effects. There are individual benefits to them.

But you've also hit on something else that socialism will do. Ban tobacco. And trans fat. And alcohol. Etc. It won't work, but they'll ban it.

If everybody is covered for everything, as I've been suggesting, then there's no people deciding who's special enough to get treatment.

It's funny that some people just can't grasp the fact that as a species, society, country.....whatever you consider yourself part of.........we should be progressing and worrying how we can make life better for everybody. While you're on the complete other end of the spectrum preaching individual greed. While I'm not a religious or sociology expert, this seems to be the big difference between some cultures....................some concentrate on themselves and others concentrate on the collective.

As far as banning things.......it's already in place. Look at drugs........nicotine is a drug and so is alcohol.....they're also both addictive. Nicotine is more addictive than cocaine. If you were to look at death rates, I'm sure you'd find that food related deaths from things like high cholesterol and heart-attacks outway deaths from marijuana or even cigarettes. You don't see our non-socialized system banning any of those. Yet the drugs are banned on a pre-tense of being a public threat. I'm by no means advocating the use of drugs, but some people like the taste of marijuana and some people like the sensation of being high....to some they have benefits just like cigarettes and fatty food...........but your argument that a socialized system will ban things because they're "bad for you" is like the pot calling the kettle black. Actually it's not even that...........I have not seen any proof that a socialized system will ban those things, but we have that our government will.

As far as the people not caring.....I don't think that's true. I bet you'd find the number one answer people give you is that they're too busy. Vacation time is way low in the US.....the american people want to work as much as possible............that's the general misconception. There was that debate where some lady commented to bush about the fact that she needed 3 jobs just to survive............his response "fantastic, three jobs, how uniquely american". So people get a couple of hours off, they don't think about working out...........your average person thinks about relaxing. Give people more vacation days to relax and people will feel less stressed and get off their couches.....rather than be hypnotized by the idiot box for a couple of hours.

Oh......world vacation days:

Italy 42 days
France 37 days
Germany 35 days
Brazil 34 days
United Kingdom 28 days
Canada 26 days
Korea 25 days
Japan 25 days
U.S. 13 days

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rehmwa 2]

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If everybody is covered for everything

don't forget - it's FREE too

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[georgerussia 0]

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What do we do with a person who has suffered permanent paralysis from an error during a laminectomy? Say, "Tough going, bro. But at least your healthcare is free."

That's what they do in all the countries with SHC I have lived in. You will not get any money worth the lawsuit even in the case of obvious malpractice, or even gross negligence. Sure, the doctor could lose his license (very unlikely though), and could even be prosecuted (even less unlikely), but you won't get anything out of it - except, maybe, moral satisfaction.

For example, several years ago a dozen of children was infected by HIV in a Russia hospital during medical procedures. There was a big scandal in news, however no one of them got anything out of it.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Based on george's screen name and some of the stuff he's said, he probably knows a hell of a lot about what it's like to live in France. He might also know what it's like to have someone tell you what your skills, education, intellect, etc. are worth, no matter how good you are at your job. No matter how hard you work.

28 years of experience, to be exactly.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *