Score one for the Constitution

[Butters 0]

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America will not negotiate with terrorists and thus the War on Terror will never be declared over. So when do we release the prisoners?

We dont... BUT we try them as terrorists.... as criminal scum they are and if they are found guilty based on the EVIDENCE...... let them rot in a federal prison for LIFE.

You want America to act as the police, the courts, and the prisons of the world for the War on Terror? We have seen what the War on Drugs has done to our police, our courts, and our prisons. Do we really want to take on those roles for the War on Terror?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kallend 1,646]

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Who in the Administration are lining their pockets as a result of our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan? How so?

Jusrt following along in the family tradition... you going to read it for once.. its long...so I really dont expect anthing in the way of understanding the motivations of GWB and Cheney and their ties to ling their pockets at other expense.

Four generations have created an unsavory web of links that could prove an election-year Achilles' heel for the president

by Kevin Phillips

This article contributed nothing towards answering my question.

No-one here is under any obligation to answer your questions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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No-one here is under any obligation to answer your questions.

Or believe a single word you post.

[Amazon 7]

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=ncclimber;


HMMMM curious

[billvon 2,426]

>What a lovely commentary by the leading Global Warning Chicken Little Hysteric a.k.a. CLH.

I think you have been reading someone else's posts, my belligerent friend!

>What does it have to do with your claim of our system of government
>being based on cowardice?

Fear is a primary tool used to justify governmental actions; witness the Patriot Act and the selling of the Iraq war. When fear is the primary determinant in someone's decisions, they are considered a coward.

[NCclimber 0]

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>What a lovely commentary by the leading Global Warning Chicken Little Hysteric a.k.a. CLH.

I think you have been reading someone else's posts, my belligerent friend!

You mean someone else came up with "Global Warning Chicken Little Hysteric"? I thought I coined that all by myself.

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Fear is a primary tool used to justify governmental actions; witness the Patriot Act and the selling of the Iraq war. When fear is the primary determinant in someone's decisions, they are considered a coward.

So the passing of the Patriot Act was an act of cowardice?

[billvon 2,426]

>So the passing of the Patriot Act was an act of cowardice?

The Patriot Act was passed out of fear. Giving up essential rights for a little temporary safety is an act of cowardice.

What would you think if, due to fear of violence, the US government banned private gun ownership? Would you consider that a courageous decision, or a fear-based one? Would you consider the people who passed it patriots or cowards?

[NCclimber 0]

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http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=ncclimber;


HMMMM curious

Looks like I got me a stalker.

Kind of ironic, considering this little mini-drama
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2650289#2650289

[Amazon 7]

I found that back about the time you were following me all over the place an postin crap to try to get me riled up....which does not work by the way..but I still find it so sad that you post so much crap to do it to others.. and get away with it incessantly I guess you like trying to post shit.. to get people to tell you what they really think of you.. which gets them banned.

Now be a nice little whatever you want to call it and crawl back under where ever it is you like to hide.

[NCclimber 0]

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I found that back about the time I imagined you were following me all over the place an postin crap that I imagined was posted to try to get me riled up....which does not work about half the time..but I still find it so sad that you are just that much smarter than me and see through my poorly constructed posts... and get away with it incessantly except when you get banned I guess you like trying to post shit. I do too

Now be a nice little troll and crawl back under where ever it is you like to hide. I'm the only one allowed under this bridge

Fixed it.

[Amazon 7]

I still have a profile with Plenty of information in it...and yours????

FAceless nameless anonymous and a whole bunch of other things that fit to a tee.. that would get me banned for attacking.

[willard 0]

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What's your definition of cowardice

The current leaderships actions during the Vietnam war certainly qualifies... One got an impossible to get appointment ...that for most of the young men at the time to get to get into a National Guard Unit that was protecting from....uh....hmmmmm.....rather than going to Vietnam... or most of them who never served.. yet they are willing to send off other peoples kids to far off wars that they would NEVER go to.. nor will they allow THEIR children to go to while they line their pockets. Sounds like a good definition of cowardice.

I think Bill Clinton would be a better example since he outright dodged the draft under the excuse that to serve in 'Nam would, as he put it, ruin his political viability.
So Bush served in the NG. Lots of people served in the NG. He also trained in jet fighters, a pretty dangerous activity in its own right.
Yeah, I think BC would be a better example of cowardice.

[Amazon 7]

You forgot to mention ALLLLLL of these.. why is that???


Dated but.. I think you MIGHT get the drift...maybe

Prominent Republicans
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.
National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.


House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.
House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.
House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.
House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.
National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.


Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.
Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.
Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so in 2000? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.


Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)


Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)


Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
"B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments
http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

[Krip 2]

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What's your definition of cowardice

The current leaderships actions during the Vietnam war certainly qualifies... One got an impossible to get appointment ...that for most of the young men at the time to get to get into a National Guard Unit that was protecting from....uh....hmmmmm.....rather than going to Vietnam... or most of them who never served.. yet they are willing to send off other peoples kids to far off wars that they would NEVER go to.. nor will they allow THEIR children to go to while they line their pockets. Sounds like a good definition of cowardice.

I think Bill Clinton would be a better example since he outright dodged the draft under the excuse that to serve in 'Nam would, as he put it, ruin his political viability.
So Bush served in the NG. Lots of people served in the NG. He also trained in jet fighters, a pretty dangerous activity in its own right.
Yeah, I think BC would be a better example of cowardice.

Gotta read the history books to find out how GW got into the NG and a flying job. Just like poor Paris Hilton getting released from jail until the judge thru he crying ass back in the can.

No point in discussing this crap in SC. We'll see what the history books have to say in twenty- thirty yr's about the GW empire.

Just like the concentration camps we opened up for the japanese americans after pearl harbor

Kill commies

[willard 0]

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You forgot to mention ALLLLLL of these.. why is that???


Dated but.. I think you MIGHT get the drift...maybe

Prominent Republicans
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.
National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.


House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.
House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.
House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.
House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.
National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.


Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.
Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.
Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so in 2000? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.


Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)


Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)


Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
"B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments
http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

I never served....does that make me a coward?
My father never served...is he a coward as well?
Never mind answering since in your mind being a Republican automatically makes someone a piece of cow dung unworthy of even existing on the same planet as yourself.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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So Bush served in the NG. ,

a little bit, anyway.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[kallend 1,646]

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I never served....does that make me a coward?
My father never served...is he a coward as well?
Never mind answering since in your mind being a Republican automatically makes someone a piece of cow dung unworthy of even existing on the same planet as yourself.

Did you avoid serving by, for example, seeking deferments?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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never served....does that make me a coward?
My father never served...is he a coward as well?
Never mind answering since in your mind being a Republican automatically makes someone a piece of cow dung unworthy of even existing on the same planet as yourself.

Only if you did it the way so many of them did..to get out of serving while others served in their place and died.
Most of them are MORE than willing to send OTHER people off to foreign wars.. but not their children... they are CHICKENHAWKS.... talk like a HAWK.. act like a CHICKEN. True Cowards thru and thru.

And you might be surprised to know.. I voted for Nixon. I voted for Reagan.. once upon a time a Republican was the better person for a given position.. but these days I can not in good conscience vote for any I have seen in years...because most of them ARE COW DUNG posing as moral upstanding citizens.. who spout religeous bullshit for the masses that actually believe their crap. And recently we are CERTAINLY seeing the TRUE COLORS of so many of them.... corruption....pedophiles....gay preachers preaching fire and brimstone against gays...the Party Of Hypocrisy.

[mnealtx 0]

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Now lets take a look at the NO BID COMPANY and THE DICK in the VP chair...

Per Fedspending.org and OMB Watch, here's the ACTUAL breakdown on Halliburton's contracts (2000-2006):

Full / open competition: 92.5%

Full / open competition, but only one bid submitted: 4.7%

Follow on contract, not available for competition, or non-competed: 2.8%

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

gee does that include all their sub divisions and sub contractors???

[mnealtx 0]

Why, yes... yes it does.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Butters 0]

After reading this thread ... score negative one for the United States of America.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[idrankwhat 0]

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Why, yes... yes it does.

And regarding your request of proof of fraud from my post yesterday, here it is again with citations. Large contractors like Halliburton get the contracts, abuse them, get busted sometimes and pay a minimal fine. Then they get the next contract. The fine is a cost of doing business.

Halliburton $8.3 billion LOGCAP contract, was supposed to supply American troops and support
personnel with food, fuel, housing and logistical support. Yet performance has been plagued by cost
overruns and shoddy results.
• Inserting Halliburton as middleman for the operation of dining halls increased costs by more
than 40%.25
• With the motivation of a cost-plus contract, Halliburton kept its own personnel at the
deluxe Kuwait Hilton Hotel, where the excess costs ran in the range of $300,000 per
month.26
• Examination of seven LOGCAP task orders with a combined value of $4.33 billion
identified unsupported costs totaling $1.82 billion. Nearly half of every dollar spent (42
cents) could not be justified.27
And yet the Pentagon paid the costs anyway.
But the trouble goes beyond mere money. Some of Halliburton's practices smack more of bad faith
than poor performance.
• Halliburton billed the government for 42,000 meals a day for our troops, but only served
14,000 meals a day.28
• Halliburton drove convoys of empty trucks through the desert, putting drivers and security
personnel at risk. It was paid to run trips and it didn't matter if trucks ran empty.29 Some
patriotic Americans who went to Iraq to earn a living and rebuild a country died in those
convoys.
• Halliburton charged the government $45 for cases of locally produced soda and $100 to
wash bags of laundry.30 Halliburton paid local citizens 50 cents an hour for laundry work.
• Rather than caring for its equipment, Halliburton bought new equipment and was
reimbursed for the full cost, plus its additional 'cost-plus' percentage. With this incentive,
Halliburton abandoned or destroyed $85,000 trucks if they got a flat tire or experienced
mechanical problems, and never changed the oil.31
• Halliburton exposed troops and civilians to contaminated water from Iraq’s Euphrates River
that they were contracted to purify before use.32
• Halliburton was contracted to feed 600 Turkish and Filipino workers meals according to
their customs. Halliburton charged the government for the service but didn’t prepare the
8
meals. Instead, the Turkish and Filipino workers were given leftover food in boxes and
garbage bags after the troops ate. Sometimes there were no leftovers to give them.33


25 United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), DOD’s Extensive Use of Logistics Support Contracts Requires Strengthened Oversight. July 2004.
26 Coalition Provisional Authority Inspector General, Federal Deployment Center Forward Operations at the Kuwait Hilton, 25 June 2004. The Inspector General stopped the practice when he noticed it.
27 Memorandum from Defense Contract Audit Agency to U.S. Army Field Support Command. 16 August 2004.
28 Senate Democratic Defense Subcommittee Hearing, “An Oversight Hearing on Waste, Fraud, and Abuse in U.S. Government Contracting in Iraq.” 27 June 2005. 1:30 p.m. - 3:30 p.m.
29 See e.g. Seth Borenstein, “Drivers Contracted by Halliburton Firm Question Iraq Hauls.” Knight Ridder Newspapers. 23 May 2004.
30 Senate Democratic Defense Subcommittee Hearing “An Oversight Hearing on Waste, Fraud, and Abuse in U.S. Government Contracting in Iraq.” Monday. 27 June 2005. 1:30 p.m. - 3:30 p.m.
31 Id.
32 “Whistleblowers’ Stomach-curdling Story: Halliburton Serves Contaminated Water to Troops.” 20 September 2005. http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/contamination.html. See also David Ivanovich, “Doctor Alleges Water Linked toInfections: Halliburton Contends It Met Army Standards.” 7 April 2006.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3780160.html
33 Senate Democratic Defense Subcommittee Hearing “An Oversight Hearing on Waste, Fraud, and Abuse in U.S.
Government Contracting in Iraq.” 27 June 2005. 1:30 p.m. - 3:30 p.m.

[mnealtx 0]

Ok... GAO corrected practices, Congress had meeting (and evidently did nothing)... I'll say again: *IF* all these things are guaranteed true, WHY hasn't GAO pulled their contract and re-bid it, hmm?

Seems like the MSM talking heads would be all over that, they sure don't hesitate to publish anything and everything that could make the current administration look bad. Where's the continuing news reports on it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,426]

>*IF* all these things are guaranteed true, WHY hasn't GAO pulled
>their contract and re-bid it, hmm?

You could use that reasoning lots of places!

IF Bill Clinton lied under oath, why wasn't he removed from office? He must not have lied.

If OJ killed Nicole, why isn't he in jail? He must not have killed her.

If Scooter didn't out Plame, why wasn't he prosecuted for it? He must not have outed her.

(Note to right wingers - if the first two statements make you purple with rage, but the last one makes you say "exactly right!" - you may be too partisan to understand what's going on in government today.)