"The Sinner"

[ltdiver 3]

Wasn't sure what to title this thread. In fact, I'm sure this will get moved to 'Speaker's Corner' at some time.

However, I put it here to reap some intelligent discussion instead of the blather that can happen in other forums.

I've been watching the new reality show, "On the Lot". They've aired only one episode so far (last week) and was intrigued with the idea (dated a film-maker at one time). I wanted to know more about the contestants and went to the web site to view some of their shorts that got them there.

I started with the 'Film of the Day' and viewed it this morning. It has stopped me in my tracks. Can people's 'faith' in their religion (and fallible leaders) be so unshakable that they would ignore their inner voice and allow things to go so far? Wow! I'm crying inside for this woman and what her leader did to her! The closing scene is numbing.

"The Sinner"

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[NWFlyer 2]

Very powerful stuff - just goes to show how much you can pack into the short format.

I'm not sure what to think about this movie; in many ways it's a typical abuse cycle, but it's compounded, of course, by the priest's lousy advice. Unlike many abused women, she does reach out for help, but the help she seeks just reinforces the cycle. But is it an indictment of faith or indictment of the church? It surely points to flaws in the model of the Catholic church where so much emphasis is put on faith in mortals (church leaders) than in many other religions.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mamajumps 0]

I thought it was very good. I can relate to the film, just not in that magnification. My faith and christianity has helped my stay in my marriage thru a lot. I am not Catholic, am of a christian faith. I have made the decision to forgive my husband of everything that has happened on my own, no outside influence, infact all of my outside influences have advised me to do the exact opposite. However, I did make a promise to God when we were married and with God's will I will keep my promise. I know I will be blessed for it one day.

[shermanator 3]

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I started with the 'Film of the Day' and viewed it this morning. It has stopped me in my tracks. Can people's 'faith' in their religion (and fallible leaders) be so unshakable that they would ignore their inner voice and allow things to go so far?

Indeed. I would. You have to remember, Us who believe that Christ Jesus shed his blood to forgive us of our sins, and give eternal life, believe that we struggle in this world, so to recieve the Glory of God. As well, You are placing it as every human lives for this world, but for Christians, we do not live for this world, we live for God, and for what is to come ofter death of the flesh. What happens to us in this world, is not of importance, we live our lives for Christ.

On another note, the Bible DOES allow for divorce, as seen in Matthew19:9 , as well as ICorinthians 7:15.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[NWFlyer 2]

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What happens to us in this world, is not of importance

And that, right there, sums up why I am not a believer.

Religious belief is not an excuse for doling out, or accepting abusive behavior.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ltdiver 3]

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On another note, the Bible DOES allow for divorce, as seen in Matthew19:9 , as well as ICorinthians 7:15.

Exactly. And if this priest believed in the entirety of the bible he'd have known this and offered it. Not "Oh you can leave, but remember you took a vow....". Bullshit!

I, myself, was in an abusive marriage and held to my christian belief that divorce was -not- an option. You married for life, no matter what. My pastor, bless his soul, saw beyond this. It took quite a bit of convincing (by him) to make me open my eyes to the entire belief.

Emotional abuse is just as destructive as physical abuse. Yes, work together to heal and understand what is right, if at all possible. However, when one party continues down the destructive path they've chosen...then allow distance its due and get out.

One of the most difficult decisions of my life, but I'm alive because of it.

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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What happens to us in this world, is not of importance

And that, right there, sums up why I am not a believer.

Religious belief is not an excuse for doling out, or accepting abusive behavior.

Neither is a lack of it. 'no consequences' seems to get people in trouble far more often than fear of retribution -in this life, via the judicial system, or the after life, via whatever one believes will happen then.

I'm not talking about the sensationalistic headlines you see of torture and bizarre cases that come from within churches or cults...I'm talking about drug dealers, STD's, unplanned pregnancies and kids that nobody loves, knocking off liquor stores, felonies, on and on. These are far more common-place than the supposed 'rampant' nut-cases in organized religion, and anybody that thinks different needs to pick up a newspaper or check the 11 o'clock news. Personally I don't really hear a lot of people claiming that their church told them to rob a convenience store. I haven't heard my church reminding me to kill my neighbor if they aren't of my same beliefs. I can't remember the last time our priest asked us to make sure we were having sex with random people. I still don't recall a nun telling me to beat one of my kids and they'll love Jesus more. And I have never heard a member of our clergy tell somebody that it's Ok to be abused in a relationship. So many people confuse forgiveness with acceptance. They are NOT the same thing. And no that is NOT how a priest would handle it.

If you don't believe in religion, so be it, that's your choice. But to equate religion with abuse, in one broad stroke, is ignorance.

Edit to add: and for the LOVE OF PETE how many people are stupid enough to believe the whole damn movie when somebody slaps a 'Based on a true story' tag on the front? Who's calling who gullible again??

How the hell did I get roped into an SC thread?

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[billvon 2,436]

>I still don't recall a nun telling me to beat one of my kids . . .

I recall nuns and brothers actually beating kids at my high school. One of the brothers got so mad one day he broke a kid's jaw. Kid got in trouble, brother got a reprimand and kept teaching. They made him principal a few years later.

Of the priests that were working at my parish in NY when I moved to CA, three have since left due to lawsuits over pedophilia charges. One is now living nearby with his partner; they throw parties for college-age guys every weekend.

Faith is what you make of it. Churches are made up of people with their own faults, problems, and issues, no matter what sort of vestments they wear, and no matter what sort of advice they give.

[jakee 1,262]

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Edit to add: and for the LOVE OF PETE how many people are stupid enough to believe the whole damn movie when somebody slaps a 'Based on a true story' tag on the front? Who's calling who gullible again??

If you really don't think there are any Priests out there who would advise women to stay in an abusive relationship because it is 'Gods will' then, well...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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>I still don't recall a nun telling me to beat one of my kids . . .

I recall nuns and brothers actually beating kids at my high school. One of the brothers got so mad one day he broke a kid's jaw. Kid got in trouble, brother got a reprimand and kept teaching. They made him principal a few years later.

Of the priests that were working at my parish in NY when I moved to CA, three have since left due to lawsuits over pedophilia charges. One is now living nearby with his partner; they throw parties for college-age guys every weekend.

I recall coproal punishment in public schools, too. There was an incident years ago of a publice school principle breaking a girl's collar bone from beating her so hard with a paddle that she hit a desk opposite her. I don't reme3mber what happened after he was put on leave. If you're trying to compare the Catholic school 15 years ago to 2007 public schools, of course you're going to find issues. ALL schools 15 and 25 years ago were a bit worse off in many ways.

I don't refute anything you've said about Catholic schools and the harsher life and sweeping under the rug that's happened. I don't personally condone, agree with, or accept any crimes that have been committed by people within those schools. I'd ask, however, how many times you hear on the news about public school teachers getting away with crap? How about something I know nobody pays attention to; what about schools for the diabled? I'm not going to start citing lawsuits because there are too damn many.

Not disagreeing that Catholic schools had/have issues. I'm saying so does everyone else. The manner in which Catholic schools have handled infractions committed by their staff looks pretty bad. So does the way it's been handled in disabled institutions, but again, nobody cares what's happening there so you won't hear about it on the news.

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Faith is what you make of it. Churches are made up of people with their own faults, problems, and issues, no matter what sort of vestments they wear, and no matter what sort of advice they give.

I completely agree.

I don't care to debate religion. I don't even know how the freak I got roped into SC in the first place unless the thread was moved. I haven't committed a crime, I shouldn't have to defend my choice -but in this forum, that is all a Catholic is made to do so I'm done.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[pajarito 0]

There are two acceptable reasons for divorce expressed in the bible. One concerns the abandonment of a Christian by a non-Christian spouse (1 Corinthians 7:15). The other is due a lifestyle of infidelity whether that be physical or otherwise (pornography, intentional flirting, or some pattern thereof). Remember, Jesus said that if you just look at a woman to lust after her, you’ve committed adultery already with her in your heart (Matthew 5:27-28). Thoughts and intentions are as incriminating as actions in the eyes of God and we will be held accountable someday. Other than these two reasons, God is silent on the issue probably because divorce is highly discouraged. However, God also makes it clear that He despises abuse of one’s spouse (Colossians 3:19, 1 Peter 3:7, Ephesians 5:25-33). It does not say that anyone must endure abuse in these situations. A person should always take themselves and their children out of danger. The person in the video was not obligated Biblically to sit there and take it.

Just because a person claims to be a Christian, puts on a robe, hangs a crucifix around their neck, went to Catholic School as a kid, had parents who claimed to be Christians, etc. does not mean that they are a Christian. There is a difference between falling into sin and diving into it. A true Christian (who is born again…e.g. saved) will occasionally fall into sin because of the sin nature. However it is against his/her (new) will. The true born again Christian has been given a new nature and is a new creature in Christ with new desires (2 Corinthians 5:17). The true Christian will not continually dive into sin as a matter of habit. A pattern of sin is indicative of not being saved. The man in the video was obviously a part of very sinful repeated behavior. I doubt very seriously that he was a Christian at all. A person who has repented before God and placed their trust in Jesus for salvation does not beat their wives over and over again.

Here’s another problem I had with the video. Catholicism is NOT representative of biblical Christianity. It’s not Christian. It’s Catholic. A priest cannot absolve anyone from sin. Only God can do that.

[jakee 1,262]

Aah, you're back. Had a chance to look into that maths problem yet? I'm surprised it's taken you a week already, it really is a very, very simple question.

Whenever you're ready.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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Aah, you're back. Had a chance to look into that maths problem yet? I'm surprised it's taken you a week already, it really is a very, very simple question.

Whenever you're ready.

I don't hang out here all day. It frustrates and depresses me most of the time. I believe the animals could fit on the ark for more reasons than that. Here, I'm talking about divorce.

[billvon 2,436]

>I'd ask, however, how many times you hear on the news about public
>school teachers getting away with crap?

?? Not too often. "The news" didn't hear about the kid's broken jaw either. They placated the parents and asked them to not talk about it outside "the community."

>Not disagreeing that Catholic schools had/have issues. I'm saying so does everyone else.

Definitely, and that was my point. There are good priests and bad priests, good advice and bad advice. While I can definitely believe a priest giving bad advice to a battered woman, I also see it as bad advice from one guy, not bad advice from an entire church.

[shermanator 3]

"For ALL have sinned and fall short the glory of God." Romans 3:23

we have to remember that this includes pastors, priests, clergy, the POPE, everyone! Not one person on earth has never sinned.

Those in 'higher' positions, such as priests of a church, are looked up to, and it is oftentimes overlooked that THEY too, sin. The trick is to not follow the sin, but listen to the WORD, hear the Word, and follow the Word. It is the Word that saves, and the Word is God... ... the priests in church cannot save anyone, all they can do is help show the way. in John 14:6, Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." ... He didnt say tht they come to the Father through a priest, or a minister, through JEsus.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[ltdiver 3]

Well, I see this thread -did- get moved from the Women's Forum to SC. I hope that constructive dialogue can still happen without thoughtless bashing side-railing the topic.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[NWFlyer 2]

Jaye, I think you read far too much into what I said; but then again, I was reading quite a bit into what Shermanator had to say, too. If we want to talk about consequences, I really bristle at a statement like "What happens to us in this world, is not of importance." Believe what you want, believe that one day you will have to meet your maker, but I hate to have that belief extended so that what happens to you (or what you cause to happen to others) in this world is *not* important. I didn't like the broad stroke that he painted the situation with, either.

You've also made a big assumption that anyone "believed" that this movie was true. I saw it as fiction, fiction that clearly was trying to make a point. I thought (as I said in my original post) that the filmmaker's statement was more against a particular church than it was against faith. But that's my interpretation. However, in no way did I think it was supposed to represent a true story exactly, nor did I say so in any of my replies.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[shermanator 3]

for conversational purposes, as to what ITdiver wants..


it is actually a well done movie, It clearly gets its point across. I think that one way it could be interpreted is not necessarily a catholic father told her those things, but that is what she interpreted from the church, and her thoughts on what the church view would be. maybe for the victem in that, it would have been different if she went for help, rather than going on her view of what the church would say. Again, this is under the assumption that she never actually went to the father, but his precents merely represents her thinking of what the church would say. I.E. the father is not a specific father, but, the organization known as the catholic church.

edit: it's fun when I try to sound smart, then my unintelligence really shows through!

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[jakee 1,262]

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I believe the animals could fit on the ark for more reasons than that.

I know, and I know you will never stop believing in it..

All I want to find out here is if you are actually capable of admitting that AiG are liars.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jimmytavino 16]

the woman who is the focal point of the short,
is certainly NOT the title character. Even though the director seems to lead the viewer to make that immediate assumption....Heck even SHE feels like she is the sinner...when she is, in fact, the victim.

the sinner is the husband

the co-conspiritor and secondary sinner is the priest... for he can be said to be a sinner,,, when he encourages a victim into further conflict, by pressing that she
"make things better", "Give him another chance"
... another chance for WHAT????

The Priest is a further sinner,,, when he "absolves" the man of his UN-Husbandly ( AND Un Manly ) Actions....
Indeed it can be argued that it is the very absolution of those sins,,,, which clean the slate off,,,, so that new and more sinsiter sins , can be carried out...
With some Catholics,,,,,, it's as though forgiveness of sin, By reciting this many or that many Hail Marys or Our Fathers.....
lessens the severity of those sins....."undoes" the damage...and relieves one of the responsibilities of bad behavior.
In fact what it DOES do,,, is it clears the way for new sins....
Why Not???? since they are so easily rationalized, away....
How UN rational is THAT????
powerful film. thanks for sharing it...

jmy

[somethinelse 0]

Wow.
I can relate to both sides of the issue...
I too am a Beleiver in Jesus Christ as God's son and Savior, yet, I struggle with the "grey areas" and the hardships in this life.

I try to live a good and up-right kind of life, BUT I am not a religious "martyr" tho, and have fluxuated back and forth over the years towards seeking comfort and relief from the darker sides of life in ways that the "church" would frown apon and possible reject me.

But ya know, Jesus was all about forgiveness.
And when I get my priorities right, and/or my head screwed on straight again from whatever road block detoured me or tossed me into the ditch, I can get right with my Lord and God, go on and know that everythings gonna be alright with me and my God.

[ltdiver 3]

I've been talking to others outside this forum (about this video) and I've got to say...at least from my perspective...you've got the correct take on the subject matter. Thanks for summing it up so well. It' nice when someone can sit back and look underneath the layers...

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon