mnealtx 0
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QuoteI did overstate slightly, my apologies. His argument is also an overstatement, however.
You might be right -- or not. Do you have any information that would demonstrate that he was overstating?
First Class Citizen Twice Over
QuoteYou once made the minor error of thinking that I was a USA native
I don't have any memory of ever having an opinion about your origin. I try real hard not to have opinions about things I have no information about.
Quotebut you also made MAJOR error of assuming because I opposed illegal immigration that I was some parochial untravelled xenophobe
No, my opinion that you're a parochial untravelled xenophobe is based on exactly ONE thing which I explained above. I was reacting to your two kneejerk statements that any place outside of the U.S. is automatically a "shithole".
My opinion had nothing to do with your position on illegal immigration.
QuoteThis makes it clear that ...
You made two incorrect statements as justification for this conclusion. In the world of logic, that would invalidate the conclusion. How do you handle things like that in your world?
First Class Citizen Twice Over
billvon 2,405
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>As for jumping the queue, they did that when they crossed the border
>illegally, the rest is semantics.
No. You cannot get a green card just by jumping the border.
>They're here working and never applied for legal status, a Z visa grants
>that status, if you think that is not skipping the queue then you are
>denying the very nature of illegal immigration and what legalization of it does.
It is not skipping the queue. I have no problem with the part that fines illegal immigrants, gives them the boot, then allows them to re-apply for a green card at the BOTTOM of the list. Heck, we should hand them applications when we send em back so they know how to do it legally!
The only part I have a problem with is the part that allows illegal aliens to work in-country with a financial penalty only (that I strongly suspect will never be paid.)
>illegally, the rest is semantics.
No. You cannot get a green card just by jumping the border.
>They're here working and never applied for legal status, a Z visa grants
>that status, if you think that is not skipping the queue then you are
>denying the very nature of illegal immigration and what legalization of it does.
It is not skipping the queue. I have no problem with the part that fines illegal immigrants, gives them the boot, then allows them to re-apply for a green card at the BOTTOM of the list. Heck, we should hand them applications when we send em back so they know how to do it legally!
The only part I have a problem with is the part that allows illegal aliens to work in-country with a financial penalty only (that I strongly suspect will never be paid.)
dorbie 0
Aside from missing the point of my post your own posts refute your false claims. Do you at any point intend to make a post addressing the topic here or are you simply going to focus on attacking posters who you disagree with in ways you refuse to specify?
Feel free to make a cogent argument addressing the immigration bill at any time.
Feel free to make a cogent argument addressing the immigration bill at any time.
dorbie 0
Quote>As for jumping the queue, they did that when they crossed the border
>illegally, the rest is semantics.
No. You cannot get a green card just by jumping the border.
>They're here working and never applied for legal status, a Z visa grants
>that status, if you think that is not skipping the queue then you are
>denying the very nature of illegal immigration and what legalization of it does.
It is not skipping the queue. I have no problem with the part that fines illegal immigrants, gives them the boot, then allows them to re-apply for a green card at the BOTTOM of the list. Heck, we should hand them applications when we send em back so they know how to do it legally!
The only part I have a problem with is the part that allows illegal aliens to work in-country with a financial penalty only (that I strongly suspect will never be paid.)
Millions of legal immigrants work in the USA for years without a green card, it takes a legally obtained visa to do so. Jumping the border confers a Z visa skips all earlier processes and permissions. They can then apply for a green card at their leisure.
Saying this doesn't skip the queue is a stretch. A Z visa lets someone who jumped the border work legally pretty much without restriction unlike many other visas, H1 or L1 have serious restrictions on the employee and employer including the inability to apply for a Green Card without a status change, a Green Card lifts these restrictions but is still a renewable visa (permanent has become a misnomer). A Z Visa is clearly skipping the queue.
QuoteNot all Mexicans. They come in from MANY countries. But mostly thru Mexico. I know a few skydivers who have overstayed their visas. Hard working but ILLEGAL. That's the part I have a problem w/.QuoteQuoteQuoteAmerican's are not eliminating other people's jobs it's the other way around.
American's aren’t eliminating other people's jobs but the US government sure do a good job of eliminating basic levels of living for Mexicans through trade agreements.
Well they're Mexicans
Which means?Quotethe various trade agreements do more to help Mexico than harm it,
No, they don't.Quoteand they're the Mexican government's responsibility not the USA's.
If they didn't accept NAFTA and other "free trade" agreements they probably wouldn't be the Mexican government.QuoteWhy do you even bother replying to that ghost above you.
Says the person who thinks international war is bad for the US economy
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
Lindsey 0
QuoteQuote
well....in terms of illegal immigrants, every single one of them has committed a crime by coming into our country illegally.
Indeed. And that's the sum-total of criminality for the overwhelming majority of them. So we fix the problem by adjusting the label to read legal instead of illegal.
I was being silly. But I really doubt that illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than citizens. Of course what we see with our own eyes is sometimes shown to be wrong, but the increasing crime rates (with Hispanics as the perpetrators) are obvious in my state. A few years ago, there was next to NO crime in NW Arkansas. Now there's quite a lot....and Hispanics are behind it. Obviously, *most* Hispanics aren't criminals, but when you see your own towns going downhill because of illegal immigrants....even if it's not the majority of them....then I'd rather have none of 'em here. That's just my ever-so-humble opinion, though.
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
dorbie 0
If you're going to quote a multi-quoted mess at least do it correctly.
Quote
That's just my ever-so-humble opinion, though.
Seems like you're more against unmanaged growth than immigration.
Unmanaged growth is what we get when we don't manage immigration properly, it's what happens when we pretend that we don't need immigrants and refuse them the necessary paperwork and facilities to integrate with society.
Immigrants are drawn from countries where the crime rate isn't astronomically out of control compared to the US--and it's not like the US is a paragon of safety and civil society for that matter. It takes money, time and commitment to immigrate. In short it takes entrepreneurialism, so that it's not an opportunity to the poorest and the disorganized, ie the criminal element in most places.
Historically and today, people tend to immigrate because they can earn more money working here than at home...because the capital and the resources that allow them to be productive are here, and the capital and resources need laborers to be productive at all.
Illegal immigration happens only because there is a conjunction between supply and demand, and our senselessly rigid immigration system has been throwing sand in the gears of the economy for decades.
People dig up all kinds of tripe about overpopulation, jobs, wages, smells, crime, culture, language, family values, terrorism etc and pretty much all of it has zero relationship to immigration when studied. The studies are done and results are in already. This country is made of and was made by immigrants.
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuoteI did overstate slightly, my apologies. His argument is also an overstatement, however.
You might be right -- or not. Do you have any information that would demonstrate that he was overstating?
Nope - I can only state from my own experience. Unless the other poster happens to have personal experience with "the overwhelming majority" of illegal aliens, then he is, by definition, overstating his case.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
pop 0
QuoteSo . . . you're not actually affected by this right now and you're being pissed off prophylactically?
They are ILLEGAL! Are you familiar with that word?
7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer
pop 0
QuoteQuoteAs for jumping the queue, they did that when they crossed the border illegally, the rest is semantics. They're here working and never applied for legal status, a Z visa grants that status, if you think that is not skipping the queue then you are denying the very nature of illegal immigration and what legalization of it does.
Aren't you the same guy who showed his sophisticated understanding of the world outside the U.S. when you called Vancouver B.C. a "shithole across the border"?
hey hey....i see hastings and main...:) that's more like a shit hole withint a beautiful cuty
7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer
QuoteQuote
We keep letting folks pour into this country by the tens of thousands... do the math!
Yeah, we used to let them in by the hundreds of thousands and millions, and all it did was make us a superpower. Then we tightened things up and all of a sudden we're facing the EU and China looming over our shoulder in a few years' time.
If half a billion of those Chinese could have immigrated to the US, our economy wouldn't be running out ofgassteam*, and we could probably afford at least another iraq or two.
Overcrowding is another strawman, we've got plenty of room and the greatest capital resources in the world already. All we're doing with immigration restrictions is encouraging capital flight. Capital is harder to move than people--people will move if you let them. Once it's gone, it's gone. Factories tend to stay put, and rust.
* sorry, bad choice of metaphor
_____________________________________
Yup! If, we would've let all those Chinese and Koreans in by the millions... they wouldn't have so far to go to attack us!
You like all those open spaces and mountains and streams? Just wait and see. It's all about the money. I've learned over the years, there's a lot more to life than getting rich. We'll just have to wait and see. Chuck
Quotehey hey....i see hastings and main...:) that's more like a shit hole withint a beautiful cuty
Awww, don't you go ruining a good snotty response with facts!
First Class Citizen Twice Over
Lindsey 0
Seems like you're more against unmanaged growth than immigration.
No. I'm against unmanaged immigration. The area (NW Arkansas per my last post) was growing for years before the Hispanic population exploded. Now that we have so many illegal immigrants, we have crime. Now whether that's because they flooded in so quickly (thus unmanaged growth) or because it's an influx of people living in relative poverty is beside the point, imho. Their being here has brought crime that wasn't here before.
it's what happens when we pretend that we don't need immigrants and refuse them the necessary paperwork and facilities to integrate with society.
Immigrants are fine....millions of illegal immigrants are not. Some of them go through appropriate channels. "It's what happens when" more of them want in than we want in.
The studies are done and results are in already.
You can find a study that backs up just about any position.
No. I'm against unmanaged immigration. The area (NW Arkansas per my last post) was growing for years before the Hispanic population exploded. Now that we have so many illegal immigrants, we have crime. Now whether that's because they flooded in so quickly (thus unmanaged growth) or because it's an influx of people living in relative poverty is beside the point, imho. Their being here has brought crime that wasn't here before.
it's what happens when we pretend that we don't need immigrants and refuse them the necessary paperwork and facilities to integrate with society.
Immigrants are fine....millions of illegal immigrants are not. Some of them go through appropriate channels. "It's what happens when" more of them want in than we want in.
The studies are done and results are in already.
You can find a study that backs up just about any position.
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
QuoteQuoteSo . . . you're not actually affected by this right now and you're being pissed off prophylactically?
They are ILLEGAL! Are you familiar with that word?
________________________________
I get so tired of people and politicians 'bunching' together 'illegal' and 'legal' immigrants. To me, that's a slap in the face to those folks who took the 'legal' course to citizenship.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Chuck
pop 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteSo . . . you're not actually affected by this right now and you're being pissed off prophylactically?
They are ILLEGAL! Are you familiar with that word?
________________________________
I get so tired of people and politicians 'bunching' together 'illegal' and 'legal' immigrants. To me, that's a slap in the face to those folks who took the 'legal' course to citizenship.
Chuck
I am a legal immigrant...well was...i am a citizen now. i know what it took to make this happen legally. Illegals need to go home where they are legal.
7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSo . . . you're not actually affected by this right now and you're being pissed off prophylactically?
They are ILLEGAL! Are you familiar with that word?
________________________________
I get so tired of people and politicians 'bunching' together 'illegal' and 'legal' immigrants. To me, that's a slap in the face to those folks who took the 'legal' course to citizenship.
Chuck
I am a legal immigrant...well was...i am a citizen now. i know what it took to make this happen legally. Illegals need to go home where they are legal.
________________________________
That, is just too cool, for you! I respect you and all the other folks who have come to the U.S. and had the self respect and respect for the U.S. to take the time and work hard and did it right, to become citizens. Those folks who choose to sneak across our borders and literally 'steal' citizenship... I got no use for them! Yours and my thinking, is also shared by several generations of people along the Southwest Border who ask Border Patrolmen; "What can we do about the 'wets'?" (their words!) I've seen that in print in Texas newspapers. Again, congradulations to you!
Chuck
quade 3
QuoteQuoteSo . . . you're not actually affected by this right now and you're being pissed off prophylactically?
They are ILLEGAL! Are you familiar with that word?
Here's what the man opened up with; "Need to send all the motherfuckers to Iraq."
Are you suggesting that anyone that ever does anything illegal (speeding ticket, use of illegal drugs, illegal use of legal drugs, ect.) be given the same treatment?
There are, various, levels of illegal activities. Some, really are just a nuisance and don't actually have much of an impact in our daily lives and it would completely change the nature of our society if we showed them zero tolerance as is being suggest both by him and, it appears, yourself.
If every single illegal immigrant suddenly -did- leave the USA, do you have any idea what would happen? Do you even have a clue as to how many illegal immigrants -you personally- rely on to get you through the day? Pop, you live is Houston, Texas FFS! Good luck getting a good meal! Oh wait, you do have that BBQ sauce of yours, don't ya? Lemma ask you this . . . any illegals working in that factory that makes it? What about people in the catering business, idoes one of the chapters in "Starting a Catering Business Start-Up Guide Kit™" cover that?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Brother. I don't rely on a MOTHER FUCKING one of them. You may. Then YOU are breaking the law.QuoteQuoteQuoteSo . . . you're not actually affected by this right now and you're being pissed off prophylactically?
They are ILLEGAL! Are you familiar with that word?
Here's what the man opened up with; "Need to send all the motherfuckers to Iraq."
Are you suggesting that anyone that ever does anything illegal (speeding ticket, use of illegal drugs, illegal use of legal drugs, ect.) be given the same treatment?
There are, various, levels of illegal activities. Some, really are just a nuisance and don't actually have much of an impact in our daily lives and it would completely change the nature of our society if we showed them zero tolerance as is being suggest both by him and, it appears, yourself.
If every single illegal immigrant suddenly -did- leave the USA, do you have any idea what would happen? Do you even have a clue as to how many illegal immigrants -you personally- rely on to get you through the day? Pop, you live is Houston, Texas FFS! Good luck getting a good meal! Oh wait, you do have that BBQ sauce of yours, don't ya? Lemma ask you this . . . any illegals working in that factory that makes it? What about people in the catering business, idoes one of the chapters in "Starting a Catering Business Start-Up Guide Kit™" cover that?
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
WELL. I was chillin in the mountains. Now you got me pissed again. My relatives came to this country LEGALLY. I have no problem for the most part if they come here LEGALLY. I've broken a few laws in my younger days. I always went to court, played my own attorney (won more than I lost) and faced the music. I've done a little jail time. My bad. Do you understand the meaning of the word LEGAL? If I as a U.S. citizen have to abide by the law you want to give these ILLEGALS a free ride. I'm tired of my tax dollars paying for the bastards. I have rich relatives that hire them. I have a Guatemalan lady that comes to the door trying to sell enchiladas every week. Am I going to rat them out? NO But. LEGAL is the keyword here. And I know my spelling sucks. Even worse when I'm pissedQuoteQuoteQuoteSo . . . you're not actually affected by this right now and you're being pissed off prophylactically?
They are ILLEGAL! Are you familiar with that word?
Here's what the man opened up with; "Need to send all the motherfuckers to Iraq."
Are you suggesting that anyone that ever does anything illegal (speeding ticket, use of illegal drugs, illegal use of legal drugs, ect.) be given the same treatment?
There are, various, levels of illegal activities. Some, really are just a nuisance and don't actually have much of an impact in our daily lives and it would completely change the nature of our society if we showed them zero tolerance as is being suggest both by him and, it appears, yourself.
If every single illegal immigrant suddenly -did- leave the USA, do you have any idea what would happen? Do you even have a clue as to how many illegal immigrants -you personally- rely on to get you through the day? Pop, you live is Houston, Texas FFS! Good luck getting a good meal! Oh wait, you do have that BBQ sauce of yours, don't ya? Lemma ask you this . . . any illegals working in that factory that makes it? What about people in the catering business, idoes one of the chapters in "Starting a Catering Business Start-Up Guide Kit™" cover that?
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
mnealtx 0
I've been doing some more reading on it, and I can't support the bill. It amounts, as said, to amnesty for the illegals already in country and puts them ahead of people that are trying to get into the country legally under the current system.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I did overstate slightly, my apologies. His argument is also an overstatement, however.
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
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