Sex offender registration...always appropriate?

[Douva 0]

I don't know how accurate the reports were, but I've read of instances of people getting put on these lists for things like an "indecent exposure" charge, from getting caught having sex with another consenting adult in public. Judges should definiteliy have some discretion in deciding who ends up these lists and who doesn't.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I don't know how accurate the reports were, but I've read of instances of people getting put on these lists for things like an "indecent exposure" charge, from getting caught having sex with another consenting adult in public. Judges should definiteliy have some discretion in deciding who ends up these lists and who doesn't.

Now that is rational.. Tanks Douva
And that needs to be nationwide.. and not some church sponsored retribution for sinners in the bible belt or gay people in podunk red neck red state Small towns with small minds USA.

Child molsetors and sexual predators are a completely different animal.. they need a specific habitat.. and I for one am not willing for that habitat to be anywhere near others who want a normal happy life without being hurt physically or psycologically. But being the humane person I am.. I think they need theri own habitat.. I am willing to give them their own Aluetian Island or two...

[kallend 1,646]

Quote

Quote

If a 13 year old had killed someone, her record would be expunged when she reached adulthood.

Only if she was tried as a juvenile and "adjudicated delinquent" (found guilty). But most (possibly all) states have provisions in which a juvenile can be "certified as an adult", and then tried, convicted and sentenced as an adult for very serious crimes (a judge has to hold a pretrial hearing and approve the "certification" first). If that happens, the 13 year old could conceivably get a life sentence. It happens far more often than laypeople realize. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.)

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."
Abraham Lincoln

If you call a child "an adult", does it make the child an adult?
Of course not.

A 13 year old child is not an adult.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,646]

Quote

Its about Consent.

We as a society do not believe that children can be consenting...We as a society do not believe that someone who is raped is gioving consent.....but two consenting adults is a far different thing.

]

But you clearly consider the 13 year old child to be sufficiently responsible that he should bear a stigma for the rest of his life.

Childhood ends at 18, not 13.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Childhood ends at 18, not 13.

Most child molesters have bene shown to have started when they were young in many cases youger than 13... he may be a child but molesting the 9 year old.... he deserves to be on the list.. and WATCHED closely for the rest of his life.

If he does it again... fine... ATTU is waiting.

[Lindsey 0]

In addition, there is a VERY HIGH recidivism rate of sex offending when the sex offender starts as a child.

Likewise, children with conduct disorders have a high likelihood of turning into adults with antisocial personality d/o....and prison inmates. But ya' don't put every 13 y/o who has been violent towards other people on a list that gets passed around to their neighbors for the rest of their lives. If we did, maybe there'd be fewer murders and other violent crimes committed, but it's just not the right thing to do. At thirteen you're still a child.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[kallend 1,646]

Quote

Quote

Childhood ends at 18, not 13.

Most child molesters have bene shown to have started when they were young in many cases youger than 13... he may be a child but molesting the 9 year old.... he deserves to be on the list.. and WATCHED closely for the rest of his life.

If he does it again... fine... ATTU is waiting.

Based on the demographics of our prison population, maybe you'd like to lock up all the black kids too.

A 13 year old is NOT an adult. Neither society nor the child will benefit from treating the child as an adult.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Royd 0]

Quote

Likewise, children with conduct disorders have a high likelihood of turning into adults with antisocial personality d/o....and prison inmates. But ya' don't put every 13 y/o who has been violent towards other people on a list that gets passed around to their neighbors for the rest of their lives

I think we ought to have a nationwide registry for thieves. That way the neighborhood would know who to look for when stuff goes missing.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Based on the demographics of our prison population, maybe you'd like to lock up all the black kids too.

Where the fuck did that come from Prof....

I guess you are one of the GUYS willing to give the 13 year old a pass.... boys will be boys after all.

[DFWAJG 4]

Quote

I don't know how accurate the reports were, but I've read of instances of people getting put on these lists for things like an "indecent exposure" charge, from getting caught having sex with another consenting adult in public. Judges should definiteliy have some discretion in deciding who ends up these lists and who doesn't.

Interestingly, Douva, many of these people with indecent exposure charges, also have histories of other sex offenses.

[Douva 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't know how accurate the reports were, but I've read of instances of people getting put on these lists for things like an "indecent exposure" charge, from getting caught having sex with another consenting adult in public. Judges should definiteliy have some discretion in deciding who ends up these lists and who doesn't.

Interestingly, Douva, many of these people with indecent exposure charges, also have histories of other sex offenses.

My point was that there is indecent exposure, and then there is indecent exposure--It's not always comparing apples to apples. If a guy got caught showing his junk to kids on the play ground; that's one thing, but if a couple gets caught having sex in a secluded area of a public park, that's something else. Having sex in a public park may show poor judgment, but I don't think it shows an inclination toward sexual assault or molestation or anything like that.

Also, since when do we punish people for what they may do? The fact that someone has a statistically higher probability of committing a crime isn't the same as if that person had committed that crime. We're talking about prohibiting people from ever having any chance at a normal life, so I think there needs to be some judicial discretion here, as well as a solid appeals process. I don't want to see someone who got caught streaking treated the same as someone who raped a ten-year-old girl.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[faulknerwn 37]

There was a guy in Texas recently who ended up on the sex offenders list because of "display in public" - his crime - taking a leak outside!

That's just goofy.

[Richards 0]

Quote

Quote

There was a guy in Texas recently who ended up on the sex offenders list because of "display in public" - his crime - taking a leak outside!

That's just goofy.

The problem then is not the list for sex offenders, but the criteria for being declared a sex offender.

For the actual offenders I think registration is good.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[DFWAJG 4]

Both Richards and Douva have very good points. I don't like the registry myself. I think it's a very inadequate solution for a very serious crime (child molestation- which is what the list was initially about). Someone else mentioned earlier in the thread that if they are that much of a danger to society, keep them locked up. the punishment needs to fit the crime. and for survivors of sexual abuse, especially repeated abuse, often suffer for a lifetime.

[steveorino 7]

Quote

The problem then is not the list for sex offenders, but the criteria for being declared a sex offender.

For the actual offenders I think registration is good.

BINGO!

steveOrino

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

I guess you are one of the GUYS willing to give the 13 year old a pass.... boys will be boys after all.

For a 30ish year old with no history other than one incident at age 13 to still be penalized for it is freaking insane. Are you still the same person now as at 13? Do you make the same mistakes now as then? Do you have the same judgement as you did then? The same comprehension of sex? I certainly hope not!!

Would you be as adamant if it was a 13 year old girl and 9 year old boy and she was the one with the same stigma? Yes, that does happen.... I know someone that was in that situation for a period of several years (age 9-11ish).

Is the 9 year old still affected? Maybe. Maybe not. Everyone responds differently. Though in the end it is her choice whether or not to let that incident control the path of the rest of her life... the 13 year old screwed up too, apparently learned from it, and has no choice in the long term ramifications of it.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

If a 13 year old had killed someone, her record would be expunged when she reached adulthood.

Only if she was tried as a juvenile and "adjudicated delinquent" (found guilty). But most (possibly all) states have provisions in which a juvenile can be "certified as an adult", and then tried, convicted and sentenced as an adult for very serious crimes (a judge has to hold a pretrial hearing and approve the "certification" first). If that happens, the 13 year old could conceivably get a life sentence. It happens far more often than laypeople realize. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.)

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."
Abraham Lincoln

If you call a child "an adult", does it make the child an adult?
Of course not.

A 13 year old child is not an adult.

Which is why I rarely handle juvenile delinquent cases any more. I got tired of making this argument in court and having it ignored by spineless judges who only rubber-stamp whatever the DA asks for.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

A 13 year old is NOT an adult.

I agree with you, a 13 year old is not an adult. However at 13 we know the difference between right and wrong. At 13 we no longer "play doctor" we at 13 have generally hit puberty and a 9 year old is pre-pubescent. That person in essence is a pedophile because he/ she is attracted and acts upon such feelings. Pedophilia is a disease, and it starts early in many cases.

From this website

http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/statistics.html#Every

· Juveniles accounted for about 16% of forcible rape arrestees in 1995 and 17% of those arrested for other sex offenses [SOO, 1997]

· Rapists are more likely to be serial criminals than serial rapists. In one study, 46% of rapists who were released from prison were rearrested within 3 years of their release for another crime -- 18.6% for a violent offense, 14.8% for a property offense, 11.2% for a drug offense and 20.5% for a public-order offense. [2002 RPR94]

· 61% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Those rapists, of course, never serve a day in prison. [1999 NCVS]

If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.

If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.

If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.

If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.

So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.

Impact of Child Sexual Abuse

*

It is estimated 60 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse live in America today.
*

Approximately 31 percent of women in prison state they had been abused as children.
*

Approximately 95 percent of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused.
*

Long-term effects of child abuse include fear, anxiety, depression, anger, hostility, inappropriate sexual behavior, poor self esteem, tendency toward substance abuse and difficulty with close relationships.
*

Adolescents with a history of sexual abuse are significantly more likely than their counterparts to engage in sexual behavior that puts them at risk for HIV infection.
*

Young girls who are forced to have sex are three times more likely to develop psychiatric disorders or abuse alcohol and drugs in adulthood than girls who are not sexually abused.
*

Among both adolescent girls and boys, a history of sexual or physical abuse appears to increase the risk of eating disorders.



So if the victim is left to carry the burden of abuse and their "Scarlet letter" for all their life, why shouldn't the abuser? Sexual abuse is sexual abuse...For every person peeping in a window, there is a person feeling watched and vulnerable. For every person who forces his/her self on another person, there is a person who goes through life with vivid memories that haunt them. For every abuser there is at least one victim but there are generally more victims because sexual abuse affects the family of the abused, it affects the family of the abuser, it affects every single person each of them come into for the rest of their life. It is not "just a 13 year old with a 9 year old" It is a family of a 9 year old and a 9 year old whose first adult experience was forced upon him or her by someone who either knew better or should have known better.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[peregrinerose 0]

Regarding the stats you posted about survivors of child abuse... those kids who have the drug problems, HIV incidence, lack of education, etc CHOSE that path. Their abuser did not force it upon them... they chose it for themselves.

We are a society of whiners, where our personal issues, lack of job, jail time, alcoholism, etc is blamed on childhood abuse, bad parents, bad luck, other people, etc instead of taking control of our own lives and accepting responsibility.

My problems as an adult are my choice. Sure, a lot of shit happened when I was a kid, but I chose the paths I took after that, for better or worse.

The 30 year old made a poor choice at 13... and at 13 he probably truly didn't know any better (how much sex ed did most parents 20 years ago give their kids?) or understand the comprehension. It also didn't give specific details as to exactly what was done to the 9 year old. Did he ask her to strip or did he rape her? Two different scenarios. But for someone who's led a clean life for 20 years to be penalized for a stupid act at age 13 is rediculous.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

etc CHOSE that path. Their abuser did not force it upon them... they chose it for themselves.

It really would be nice if the world were so black and white but it is not. Someone who is raped and abused takes on a new personality due to such an extreme behaviour someone else choose to use them for. Molestation, rape and other acts of abuse are life changing events that have very serious long term effects, esp if such abuse is recurring (as in family or friend of a child) or it happens at such a age it affects thier natural ability to progress through development.

Depression from being abused is a huge factor and its how others around them and help sought that can make or break a persons recovery. Yes they ultimately make a choice when they are an adult if they pick up the crack pipe, however its silly to assume they have no personal justification for their actions. To state that anything that happens after the abuse is the victims fault is passing blame from the abuser. Being violated is not just a physical malice, its a mental and emotional violation of a person, of who they are, who they were and who they wanted to become. Some due to support of others seek help and recover but to say that the abuser has no impact over a persons lifetime is a way to once again punish the victim which is much more common then punishing the abuser.

Quote

We are a society of whiners, where our personal issues, lack of job, jail time, alcoholism, etc is blamed on childhood abuse, bad parents, bad luck, other people, etc instead of taking control of our own lives and accepting responsibility.

I agree people should take control of their lives and strive to make them better in spite of how they were raised or events that took place that are harmful but your kidding yourself if you think that what happens in a person childhood does not shape a majority of their lives. You are also kidding yourself if you think that it is reasonable to assume people have the tools to overcome such actions without outside help. The stuff that happens in ones life is part of who they are, regardless if they over come it! To blame people of being whiners and not wanting control is an easy way out... takes others responsibility out of the equation but thats crap. We are responsible, in how we control our own lives, how our lives impact others as well as how both those correlate to both of the peoples futures.

Quote

and at 13 he probably truly didn't know any better (how much sex ed did most parents 20 years ago give their kids?)

I highly doubt that, he is in my generation. Even way back then we had sex education in schools, and in the school yard. At 13 I was taught the best route to get to planned parenthood in 6th period health class. At 13 I was babysitting other children in an authoritative position and had I acted in a sexual way to a 9 year old I would have known it was wrong. Had I acted in a sexual way towards a 13 year old I knew it was wrong. Ignorance is not an excuse of the law, now if it were a 10 year old and a 8 year old that would be different.... both were pre-pubescent. I don't care if he had the girl strip and expose herself or if he penetrated her (or him, as we weren't told the gender of the child he abused) unless he was a mentally ill 13 year old and was certified as such he knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong and if he didnt know it was wrong statistics show he was probably abused himself when he was younger. nurture and nature are very powerful things in a childs life, if the balance gets screwed up with abuse there are severe consequences to be paid on both sides. However I dont feel bad for the abuser just the abused.

Quote

But for someone who's led a clean life for 20 years to be penalized for a stupid act at age 13 is rediculous.

Nice of you to call abuse of a 9 year old child a stupid act in such a way to make it insignificant. I bet you it isnt insignificant to that child, or to that childs family. How do you know he has led a clean life? We dont know the particulars of this case, but if we know the city he lives in we can find them out.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[MDMA 0]

Quote

It really would be nice if the world were so black and white but it is not. Someone who is raped and abused COULD, but not always takes on a new personality due to such an extreme behaviour someone else choose to use them for. Molestation, rape and other acts of abuse COULD BE, BUT NOT ALWAYS are life changing events that have very serious long term effects

fixed it for you

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Thank you, yes I do not mean to imply that there is a end all be all in any situation.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[peregrinerose 0]

You seem to assume that I am not intimately familiar with abuse and what it can do to a person long term. I was molested by my mother from age 8ish-14ish, beaten for as long as I can remember until I left home at age 17. I had no where to go, no resources, no help. No one believed me because my abuser was a 'good Christian woman' and they don't do that kind of thing, they turned a blind eye to the blood and bruises.

I chose to live my own life, not let one sick person control my life for me. If I knew that she got mental health care to solve her problem and had been 'normal' for the last 20 years, I would welcome her back into my life in a heartbeat.

The 9 yo boy and 13 yo girl situation, I know both parties. What happened 20 years ago has no affect on how either the guy or I perceive the girl in the scenario. Nothing has happened in 20 years and she is not a pedophile. She is not the same person now that she was then, why should she be judged for someone she no longer is?

Was your judgement at 13 years old exactly what it is now? Is your sense of right/wrong exactly what it is now? Didn't you pull any stupid 13 year old stunts then that you wouldn't dream of doing now? Project 20 years down the road... should you be judged in 20 years for the mistakes that you are probably making right now in your life (we all screw up, this isn't a slam on you personally!)? Will you be the same person in 20 years as now?

I blame a drug addict for being a drug addict regardless of what circumstances are in their life (the exception being crack babies who were forced drugs). If someone makes mistakes they should be judged for them and treated accordingly, but at some point everyone deserves a second chance and some degree of forgivness assuming that they truly have modified their ways and have proven that for a substantial period of time (years).

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Royd 0]

A 13 year old molesting a 9 year old.. COME ON... the boy BETTER get in trouble.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote

Get in trouble is one thing....being labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life is another. And just *perhaps* she should get in trouble too.

I'm not responding to your post in particular. It's just closest to the point that I want to present.

I find a bit of hypocrisy in the whole thing, especially with children.

Does anyone remember,"If it feels good, do it."? Well, the same generation that revelled in sexual freedom, now has a laissez faire attitude about teenage sexuality, even though we have seen the end results of such foolishness.

In sex education classes, self control and responsibility are pooh poohed as something that is not achievable,so we show them how to do it, instead.

Teenage motherhood is embraced as a desirable goal in certain segments of society.

Whoremongers who father children by several different women, and then leave them in the lurch, is a badge of honor.

Yet, we want to lay down hard rules that they should have known about and obeyed, if those same actions affect us personally.

Maybe we should get back to teaching that the sexual relationship should also be a spiritual relationship, but, of course, that would go against the liberal agenda of taking the idea of God out of everything, and we sure can't have that happen.

Looks to me like the chickens are coming home to roost!

[jshatzkin 0]

Exactly.

Having worked as a therapist in the military prison (Leavenworth) sex offender treatment program, this subject strikes a chord with me. It's a Catch 22. The public cries that "rehabilitation" of sex offenders does not work. The truth is, rehabilitation does not end when the offender leaves prison. It continues based on how society treats and welcomes them back, which is not very welcoming. I had one particular inmate who made big strides in prison and was paroled. He found a job at a local pizza place and volunteered at a church. things were going well, until the pizza place hired a 15 year old and he had to quit. The the church "dismissed" him because the youth group was doing activities the same time he was working. He ended up renting porn (adult porn) as an "outlet for stress", which was a violation of parole, and came back to prison. The public could easily say his parole was broken because he "reoffended". He did not actually reoffend, but stress of not being accepted back into society contributed to his porn seeking behavior.

Anyone who has scholarly knowledge of the treatment and psyche of child sex offenders knows that 1. treatment includes supressing a desire (much like drugs) and 2. STRESS is one of the biggest triggers that causes the cycle reoffending.

So does it make sense to not accept them back into the community? We worry about the child sex offender snatching our kids up at the bustop. Not all child sex offenders are of that predatory nature. In fact, only 10% of child sex offenders kidnap kids they don't know. 90% of sex offenders are the people parents and kids trust and know well. The best defense (as proven by the research) is to teach kids the importance of boundaries, good touch vs. bad touch, "bad" secrets..etc. Sex offenders use a "grooming" process to gain trust with the children. If you can teach kids to recognize the "uh oh" feeling when they are being groomed and be assertive to the offender and then tell someone, you are ahead of the game.

I go out, as part of my current job, and teach kids from age 3-12 about body boundaries, good vs bad touch, assertiveness, bad secrets,..etc. It is proven the best line of defense against child molestation.
Most child sex offenders prey on vulnerable, passive, and impressionable children. Children who learn to be assertive and protective of their body and boundaries are often quickly left alone in the grooming process.

A registry is a simplistic "security blanket" for adults that we know where the offenders are. Unfortunately it is a false security, and ineffective at best.

Jen