Lets Pray

[br0k3n 0]

Courtesy of Mr Randi

I coudnt have said it better myself,

A prayer, inspired by President George Bush’s recent appeal to “a loving God” who he asked to “comfort those who are suffering,” in response to the massacre of 32 persons at the Virginia Tech campus. My prayer:

To God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, God of Abraham, Jehovah, whoever or whatever:

God, You in Your omniscience – You know everything, past present and future – and also in Your omnipotence – You can do anything You want to do – why, 23 years ago, did You create this deluded man Seung-Hui Cho, then allow him to buy the guns, go to the Virginia Tech campus, and slaughter all those students and faculty? That took long-term planning, determined intention, and careful nurturing of Cho’s delusions and hatred, by You. God, what’s “loving” about that? Our President may labor under the delusion that such an act somehow shows Your “loving” nature, but in my admitted ignorance, I cannot see that. Help me to understand.

Or was this – forgive my suggestion, God – yet another failure of Your Intelligent Design, along with tobacco, cancer, spina bifida, and Crohn’s Disease?

A better plan, God – in my humble opinion – would have been to prevent that horrendous, senseless, slaughter, and then You would have had no reason to have to “comfort” those parents, friends, fellow-students and so many others who will now have to do without the delight of knowing these beautiful people. You see, God, You could have saved the lives – and futures – not only of those 32, but of Mr. Cho, as well! This deranged young man, angry and desperate, reacted to a society he felt was opposing him. He murdered 32 persons because he felt he had to, in answer to impulses he could not control. But You, Almighty God, Creator of Heaven and Earth, etc., etc., could have intervened – “omnipotent,” remember? – and there would be far less sorrow in our nation today.

Why did You do this to us? The figures show us that most of us believe in You, believe in Your loving nature, and appeal to You for Your comfort even after You have decided to allow tragedies such as this to happen; doesn’t that count? Personally, I don’t believe in You, but don’t the numbers count?

God, I’m sure that Dr. Richard Roberts, president of Oral Roberts University, speaks for You when he says, “…there’s no doubt that this act was Satanic in origin." He calls Cho's recently-revealed writings, “just words,” which he says are “one of Satan’s tools to bring about Man’s destruction.” Now, this fits the Christian idea of demonic possession, which says that human existence is predicated on the narrative of Man’s Fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden, and that wherever there is good, Satan is trying to destroy it.

Please, God, try to get Your act together, or there may be fewer people out there willing to appease a jealous, callous, vindictive, cruel, obviously insecure deity such as Yourself. And what would You do then?

God only knows…

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[vortexring 0]

It astounds me that people believe God is responsible for everything. Whether it's falling in love, getting squished low hooking, or even making somebody commit mass murder.

I - like everyone else - am not completely convinced He exists. I could brag about my faith being so strong that in actual fact I am convinced, but this would be a lie. A white one perhaps, but a lie.

My belief is that He's quite simply left us to it. What we do as humans is quite simply what we do.

I honestly believe Christians who blame God for mankinds atrocities are fucking mentalists of the highest order.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[steveorino 7]

What a cop out. If God was to intervene in our lives as such and we knew it, we'd all complain that we have no freedom of choice.

Free will to do as we choose is how God created us. Good comes with that and some bad. Some very good, and some very bad.

I have 3 adult sons. I could direct them in many ways as they were growing up, sometimes to the point they thought they had no choices. What they failed to realize is they ALWAYS had the choice to do what they wanted. However, every choice they made brought consequences, some good, some bad. Some choices were very good, some were very bad. Some consequences were very good, some were very bad. Some choices hurt themselves, some even hurt others. Was I a bad father to give them the ability to choose?

steveOrino

[idrankwhat 0]

Actually I thought the prayer started off well but he cut the list of proper nouns too short. I wish more people would pray like that. We'd fight less.

"To God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, God of Abraham, Jehovah,....."

[philh 0]

if your sons were being shot at by a maniac and you had the power to intervene are you saying you wouldnt?

[steveorino 7]

Quote

if your sons were being shot at by a maniac and you had the power to intervene are you saying you wouldnt?

What a ridiculous analogy.

My son Drew is being shot at and having his life be at risk by suicide bombers every day. I knew that when he joined (as I had been there -- done that) I could have locked him in his room I guess. A father taking away free will is not a good thing IMHO

steveOrino

[SpeedRacer 1]

That's a pretty Mickey-Mouse caricature of religious faith.

Maybe Randi should stick to card tricks.

Speed Racer
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[philh 0]

"What a ridiculous analogy. "

Its very easy to say that, maybe you could give a reson why in your next post. In fact it was you who introduced the father to son analogy in the first place, when its used against you it suddenly becomes ridiclous does it?

So what is your answer, if you had the power to save your son (and others) would you intervene?

[steveorino 7]

I did reply in my edited version. I KNOW my son is getting attacked and shot at most every day. I could have intervened in his life and worked against his free will and kept him from enlisting to follow the old man's footsteps. Since he was of age I guess I would have had to over power him and lock him in a room (might could have done that a few years back, but not now). BUT, is that a way to live?

God can intervene and take away man's free choice, but is that what we really want? IMHO, I don't think I'd like it.

steveOrino

[Michele 1]

Why is it, broken, that you always post incredibly derogatory things against faith? You have a chip on your shoulder regarding God, and it shows.

It does nothing to lessen the faith of those who have it; the questions you ask are not the questions they are asking. Rather, they are the questions already asked, and generally understood (i.e. Steve O).

And it does nothing to make those without faith even less faithful; as they already are not, how can one make it less?

Anyone who understands the simple concept (and yes, it's simple and elegant) of free will understands what happened at VT. A horrible, tragic, and ferociously shitty thing...but one man, acting with free will, did what he did.

It wasn't God doing it. It wasn't up to God to prevent it. It's up to us to run our lives as we see fit, accepting all consequences and all lessons learned along the way. It's about free will - which, if you consider it, is what this country was built on, too.

So railing against it does nothing for you, to further your particular cause, and simply demonstrates (yet again) a chip the size of a redwood sitting on your shoulder.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Zenister 0]

Quote

What a cop out. If God was to intervene in our lives as such and we knew it, we'd all complain that we have no freedom of choice.

Free will to do as we choose is how God created us. Good comes with that and some bad. Some very good, and some very bad.

I have 3 adult sons. I could direct them in many ways as they were growing up, sometimes to the point they thought they had no choices. What they failed to realize is they ALWAYS had the choice to do what they wanted. However, every choice they made brought consequences, some good, some bad. Some choices were very good, some were very bad. Some consequences were very good, some were very bad. Some choices hurt themselves, some even hurt others. Was I a bad father to give them the ability to choose?

no one is claiming that you as 'the father' are O3... and that is the fundamental difference.. you cant have it both ways.. either you are the Prime Mover, fully aware, and fundamentally responsible for all actions, all existence, or you are not.

No designer can blame his creation for acting EXACTLY HOW DESIGNED. If you wanted it to 'be good' you should have made it that way, its not like you didnt know what it would do once you 'threw the switch'. Therefore YOU (as designer, creator, and 'power source') ARE ultimately responsible for what your creation does.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[SkyjunkySean 0]

Rom 8:28...for God causes ALL things to work together for good to those who love God to those who are called according to HIS purposes.
God is not vindictive or hateful.
He leaves us to free will. none of us will know the full extent of His reasons EVER. we just have to trust Him. regardless if we understand why He allows bad things to happen

[SkyjunkySean 0]

GOd did take responsibility for what His creation doue/did. He made a way for each of us to never have to pay for the things we have done in our past. He took ultimate responsibility & gave His life for us.

[Zenister 0]

leave the silly dogma out of the discussion please..

Divinity cannot die.. God did not die... Even working inside "your" Religions conventions, Death and Pain are meaningless to anyone who (by definition) completely controls the system.

but that is an aside..

Either Divinity is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient or isnt.. if She (just because it annoys many) IS...then nothing you do is really 'your choice', your choices were made for you, and you have the ILLUSION of free will...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[vortexring 0]

Despite having a dodgy goaty beard Steve, as a Paster(?) ((Wahtever on Earth that is)), you talk decent sense mate.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[steveorino 7]

Quote

Despite having a dodgy goaty beard Steve, as a Paster(?) ((Wahtever on Earth that is)), you talk decent sense mate.

Thanks! My wife says the beard makes me look Amish. LOL!

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

Quote

[no one is claiming that you as 'the father' are O3... and that is the fundamental difference.. .

That is why I said his analogy is ridiculous. I'll respond to the other later -- gotta go jump!

steveOrino

[akarunway 1]

Quote

What a cop out. If God was to intervene in our lives as such and we knew it, we'd all complain that we have no freedom of choice.

Free will to do as we choose is how God created us. Good comes with that and some bad. Some very good, and some very bad.

I have 3 adult sons. I could direct them in many ways as they were growing up, sometimes to the point they thought they had no choices. What they failed to realize is they ALWAYS had the choice to do what they wanted. However, every choice they made brought consequences, some good, some bad. Some choices were very good, some were very bad. Some consequences were very good, some were very bad. Some choices hurt themselves, some even hurt others. Was I a bad father to give them the ability to choose?

If you beieve in your GOD so wholeheartedly shouldn't he have the answer to your questions?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[steveorino 7]

First, what questions have I asked that God did not answer?

Second, some things cannot be known.

There are two doctrines in the Christian faith concerning God's Omniscience. Calvinism and Arminism. Many believe these two theologians only disagreed about the security of the believer, but they had other diving factors in their theology. And each of these different beliefs had smaller branches within their own theology. I happen to be a Wesleyan. I believe God is sovereign and I believe He knows all "possible" futures. However, God has given man the ability to chose his own actions, both good and bad.

steveOrino

[hairyjuan 0]

GOD, Protect me from your followers!



As a veteran of viet nam and a member of veterans for peace, i suggest that you start yelling at the top of your lungs:SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME NOW


FEAR CREATES WAR, LOVE CREATES PEACE




www.addictedtowar.com



and if you think this is an absurd link, you dont have a clue about the how and why war occurs-

CLUE #1- it doesn't have a damn thing to do with prophecy or 'God's plan'


War is a ritual blood sacrifice, might be your son next, Steveo

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[SpeedRacer 1]

GOD, Protect me from your followers!


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And yet in your link you just cited a Christian pastor.

Speed Racer
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[ExAFO 0]

Quote

GOD, Protect me from your followers!



As a veteran of viet nam and a member of veterans for peace, i suggest that you start yelling at the top of your lungs:SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, BRING THEM HOME NOW


FEAR CREATES WAR, LOVE CREATES PEACE




www.addictedtowar.com



and if you think this is an absurd link, you dont have a clue about the how and why war occurs-

CLUE #1- it doesn't have a damn thing to do with prophecy or 'God's plan'


War is a ritual blood sacrifice, might be your son next, Steveo

I like steak. Do you like steak?

I like beer. Do You like beer?

I like boobies of all sizes. Do you like boobies of all sizes?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[philh 0]

"I could have intervened in his life and worked against his free will and kept him from enlisting to follow the old man's footsteps. Since he was of age I guess I would have had to over power him and lock him in a room (might could have done that a few years back, but not now). BUT, is that a way to live?"

i think you mistake the nature of intervention that is implied. By definition god can do anything , including miracles. Now suppose you had the power to perform miracles also and Osama Bin Laden was pointing his AK47 at your son and you had the power to stop the gun OBLS's gun from working, would you do it or would you let OBL's free will play its course?

[steveorino 7]

Quote

"I could have intervened in his life and worked against his free will and kept him from enlisting to follow the old man's footsteps. Since he was of age I guess I would have had to over power him and lock him in a room (might could have done that a few years back, but not now). BUT, is that a way to live?"

i think you mistake the nature of intervention that is implied. By definition god can do anything , including miracles. Now suppose you had the power to perform miracles also and Osama Bin Laden was pointing his AK47 at your son and you had the power to stop the gun OBLS's gun from working, would you do it or would you let OBL's free will play its course?

I would. But of course I'm not God. The Bible clearly tell us God has left us to do our free will. God SELDOMED intervenes into man's free will. That appears to be his choice.

steveOrino

[philh 0]

The fact that you believe god intervenes even once (which i believe you do) contradicts your idea that god has left us to our own free will. Furthermore the idea that a mad killer should be left to implement his own free will is absurd. Sometimes one persons free will interferes too much with another. A mad mass murderer's free will is considered by most to be less important than the right of others to life. Im sure most people would not have any objections to intervining in such a process. The fact that you would intervene in the example I gave implies you are also one of those people. Quiet rightly given the power to save someone from danger you would use that power, thats what emergency services do everyday. You would save your son, you would not worry about Bind Ladens free will. This I believe contradicts your cirticism of The Amazing Randis article when you said
"If God was to intervene in our lives as such and we knew it, we'd all complain that we have no freedom of choice. "