Interesting 2005 Article about Virginia Tech

[Douva 0]

Quote

I may be wrong (have been before) but I think the ACLU stepped in at one point and prevented mental health records from being disclosed.

I don't think private mental health records (i.e. the files of a person's psychiatrist or therapist) should be a factor because that might actually discourage people from seeking help, but if there is a COURT RULING, based on the input or testimony of mental health professionals, that a person is a danger to himself and/or others, that should be included in his FBI background check when he tries to buy a firearm.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Yeah, that was my argument... If more "random" people carried guns, would it be more likely to have incidents... Kinda difficult to prove that one way or the other.

No, this has been clearly disproven by the examples of Florida and Texas where a large number of "random" (actually, they self selected) people starting carrying guns.

The CCW holders commit crimes at a rate comparable to a police department.

[justinb138 0]

Quote

The CCW holders commit crimes at a rate comparable to a police department.

I believe that studies have shown that CHL holders are 5 to 15 times less likely to commit felony offenses than the general population, depending on the state.

[Axe_Murderer 0]

Quote

Quote

The CCW holders commit crimes at a rate comparable to a police department.

I believe that studies have shown that CHL holders are 5 to 15 times less likely to commit felony offenses than the general population, depending on the state.

8 out of 10 surveys prove that people quoting statistics are talking out of their arses

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The CCW holders commit crimes at a rate comparable to a police department.

I believe that studies have shown that CHL holders are 5 to 15 times less likely to commit felony offenses than the general population, depending on the state.

8 out of 10 surveys prove that people quoting statistics are talking out of their arses

I'll be damed. You just proved it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Douva 0]

Emily Haas, one of the gunman's surviving victims, was interviewed on CNN. She described hiding under her desk, after they heard the gunshots in the room next door, "waiting and hoping he wouldn't come in." But he did come in, and now her professor and several classmates are dead. It's too bad none of them could do anything more than "waiting and hoping."

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Axe_Murderer 0]

Quote

Emily Haas, one of the guman's surviving victims, was interviewed on CNN. She described hiding under her desk, after they heard the gunshots in the room next door, "waiting and hoping he wouldn't come in." But he did come in, and now her professor and several classmates are dead. It's too bad none of them could do more than "waiting and hoping."

if only it hadn't been her "don't take my AK47 to school" day

[kirrz 0]

Ok. So here in Australia, our worst ever massacre was in 1996 when 35 people were killed after some psycho opened fire on a tourist destination called Port Arthur in Tasmania. After that, did our government say "now we should give everyone guns so they can protect themselves next time"? No.

Infact, our prime minister Johnny went to the media saying:
""we will find any means we can to further restrict them because I hate guns... ordinary citizens should not have weapons. We do not want the American disease imported into Australia... I did not want Australia to go down the American path. There are some things about America I admire and there are some things I don't. And one of the things I don't admire about America is their... slavish love of guns."

So then Australia decided to categorize different types of guns and restrict who could buy them accordingly. Even the most basic one needed genuine reason (ie. farmers who needs to shoot feral animals etc). Self defence did not count. And they started a buy back initiative in which they gave people ridiculous amounts of money if they sold their gun back. And it worked.

Since then, there has been one major shooting.. it was in 2002 at a university where TWO people were killed. And that rocked and shocked the nation and more gun control was put down. Since then, nothing. Sure, very very occasionally you hear about someone in the bikie gang being shot or something gang related where it was an internal conflict and one person died.. but no mass shootings on the innocent (*knock on wood*). The Australian Bureau of Statistics estimates that 78% of all firearm deaths is on suicide BUT only 5% of suicides done by firearms.

So Australia is a case study of a country that got rid of their guns... and it works. I'm glad I don't live in America. And it's not even being scared about getting shot in a mass murder situation, it's that every tom, dick and harry can get a gun so maybe next time if I refuse to give my handbag to a mugger, I may get shot. Or maybe I'll accidentally piss someone off on the road and they'll get out of their car and shoot me. Fuck that.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

So Australia is a case study of a country that got rid of their guns... and it works.

It doesn't work. Although crime steadily decreased for 25 years before your 1996 ban it's way up since then.

In the four years following the ban, homicides were up 3.2 percent, 3.2 percent, assaults 8.6 percent, and armed robberies 45 percent. Victoria experienced a 300% increase in firearms homicide.

While the rate of gun-ownership has no correlation with crime rates (The swiss own more guns than the Germans next door and have a lower murder rate and the Japanese have few guns and a low murer rate) changing gun-laws affects crime.

Crime goes up when you disarm victims.

Confrontational crimes go down when governments relax restrictions on concealed firearm cary. Some of the criminals switch to other crimes (burglary instead of mugging) which is fine - it's a lot easier and cheaper to replace property than it is to fix any medical problems that could result from the assault which may accompany a mugging.

Quote

I'm glad I don't live in America. And it's not even being scared about getting shot in a mass murder situation, it's that every tom, dick and harry can get a gun so maybe next time if I refuse to give my handbag to a mugger, I may get shot. Or maybe I'll accidentally piss someone off on the road and they'll get out of their car and shoot me. Fuck that.

I worry a lot more about the beer in my neighbor's fridge more than whatever arsenal he might legally own. Assuming I have an average chance of being black, joining a street gan, and being involved in the illegal drug trade I'm a lot more likely to be run over by my neighbor when he drinks and drives.

Being white makes things a lot better. I'm no more likely to be shot in Seattle (which has legal concealed carry and guns out the yin-yang) than I am in Canada.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Ok, here's the logical thought.

Some people just like guns.

I get that. People want them for various reasons. Some reasons actually -do- make sense. Some of the reasons don't make sense at all.

I LIKE the idea of people being able to have guns to hunt, target shooting and even home protection.

I DISLIKE the idea of untrained non-professionals having guns in certain places; airliners, any place where people congregate and have heated discussions such as bars, schools and workplaces.

You need to check the laws for your states. Most states (I'm saying that because I haven't exhaustively researched it) require both a federal and state background check AND a training requirement for concealed carry.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

>If only one person in each of those classrooms had carried, then the
>death toll would have been WAY less.

Right. And if more disturbed students like Cho carried guns, this would happen WAY more often in schools across the country. Like I've said, the "guns will solve our problems" approach makes as little sense as the "guns cause our problems" angle.

Yeah, that was my argument... If more "random" people carried guns, would it be more likely to have incidents... Kinda difficult to prove that one way or the other.

Not hard at all - look up the number of concealed carry permit holders that have been arrested on gun charges. It's been done, and the numbers are greatly lower than the general population.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I may be wrong (have been before) but I think the ACLU stepped in at one point and prevented mental health records from being disclosed.

HIPAA (HIPPA?) laws and privacy laws both prevent that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PWScottIV 0]

Quote

Emily Haas, one of the gunman's surviving victims, was interviewed on CNN. She described hiding under her desk, after they heard the gunshots in the room next door, "waiting and hoping he wouldn't come in." But he did come in, and now her professor and several classmates are dead. It's too bad none of them could do anything more than "waiting and hoping."

No shit. I'm a college student and although it won't do much in a gunfight, I do carry a 4" folding combat knife everywhere I go... Including school. If it wasn't TOTALLY illegal I would probably be open to keeping a gun in my bookbag too... I'd rather go down fighting.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[quade 3]

BTW, for all the folks that are interested in this issue in general and especially those with an interest in the armed responce and Secret Service protection analogies we've been using in this thread, "60 Minutes" is doing a story on the Secret Service tonight and how they're studying school shootings.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Right. And if more disturbed students like Cho carried guns, this would happen WAY more often in schools across the country.

But it is going to happen anyway when a nut case has a gun.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It evolves into brown shirts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh Come on Quade... ...



sheesh.. dont forget the friggin brown shorts too.

everyone will start working for UPS?

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

I may catch some flack for this from my fellow pro-gun crowd; however, I actually agree with you on one point--I support the prohibition most states place on carrying guns in bars.

How about just not letting people who are carrying to drink?

[Douva 0]

Quote

Quote

I may catch some flack for this from my fellow pro-gun crowd; however, I actually agree with you on one point--I support the prohibition most states place on carrying guns in bars.

How about just not letting people who are carrying to drink?

For one thing, it puts the license holder in an awkward position. If an armed license holder is out with friends who know he normally drinks, he either has to announce he's carrying a gun or make excuses why he's not drinking, if he doesn't want to break the law. Also, the overall percentage of people who go to bars but don't drink is pretty low--And this is coming from someone who's often in that low percentage--So I'm not sure to whom such an amendment to the current laws would cater. Also, there is currently no legal prohibition against carrying while drinking; there is only a prohibition against carrying while intoxicated. This allows someone to legally have some wine or a beer with dinner, while carrying. I think a "no drinking while carrying" law might catch more flack than the "no carrying in bars" law.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

The CCW holders commit crimes at a rate comparable to a police department.

I believe that studies have shown that CHL holders are 5 to 15 times less likely to commit felony offenses than the general population, depending on the state.

8 out of 10 surveys prove that people quoting statistics are talking out of their arses

I'll be damed. You just proved it

LOL. Good catch!

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

The CCW holders commit crimes at a rate comparable to a police department.

I believe that studies have shown that CHL holders are 5 to 15 times less likely to commit felony offenses than the general population, depending on the state.

8 out of 10 surveys prove that people quoting statistics are talking out of their arses

I'll be damed. You just proved it

LOL. Good catch!

Who says fun can't be had in Speakers Corner

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,646]

Quote

Quote

Right. And if more disturbed students like Cho carried guns, this would happen WAY more often in schools across the country.

But it is going to happen anyway when a nut case has a gun.

What a DEFEATIST attitude. You will eventually die anyway, so why bother with a parachute when you skydive?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.