Andy and Brad

[billvon 2,425]

Once upon a time there were two guys sitting in the room. Andy was a retired banker; Brad was a former engineer. They didn't have much in common, and indeed normally they would have no reason to sit for hours in a small room. Somehow, though, these two guys have gotten sucked into a little parable here on SC.

Andy was bored. There, in the corner, was a big . . thing. It looked sorta like a heater, sorta like a briefcase, made of gray metal. There was a cord running from it to near an outlet. He decided to plug it in to see what happened. He did, and it began to make a humming noise.

"Aha! It's a sound maker, and it makes a pleasing noise," he said.

After about half an hour the room began to get warmer. "You know, Andy, I think that thing you have plugged in might be a heater. Things are getting warmer."

"Nonsense!" claimed Andy. "It's not much hotter than it was before."

Brad pulled out a thermometer. "Well, it was 73 degrees, now it's 80. That's like seven degrees."

"Let me see that!" Andy took the thermometer and measured all around the room, frowning at the device. Finally he measured the temperature right under the gray box. "Aha! See, it's 74 degrees under here - and it's closest to the heater! Not only is the room not getting hotter, but this box is certainly not the cause."

"Well, that's what you'd expect if it was a convection heater. It would pull cooler air from underneath, so you'd expect the coolest place in the room to be under the heater."

"I don't know about this convection stuff, but I am pretty sure that's not a heater."

"Well, let's see," said Brad. He pulled out a few instruments and checked it out.

Later he announced what he had found. "Well, the device is taking 1600 watts out of the wall socket. The temperature over the device is 30 degrees hotter than anywhere else in the room, which indicates heat is rising off it. The device itself is very hot. The humming is likely the noise of the 60 hertz AC power in the heating coils. There's not much question it's a heater. Why don't we unplug it?"

"Whoa! Why are you so eager to do that? It makes a nice noise. How about we wait until we know for sure before doing anything rash?"

"Well, there's not much question that it is a heater. I mean, we know for a fact that it's putting 1600 watts of heat into the room."

"And how the heck do you know that?"

"Well, the voltage going into the thing is about 110 volts, and it's drawing 14.5 amps. That's about 1600 watts. Thermodynamics says that energy must be going somewhere. And the room is warming up at the same rate you'd expect."

"When you have something better than some complex computer modeled theory, then maybe we'll unplug it."

"Why don't we try it and see?"

"Because I'm not going to do something strenuous and pointless like unplugging it until we know for sure! Why can't you admit you might be wrong? Maybe there's another hidden heater under the floor. Did you ever think of THAT?"

With that Brad gave up.

A few minutes later a guy from the power company came by to deliver the bill.

"Hey, you're an expert on this stuff," said Andy to the power guy. "This guy claims that that thing is heating up the room and wants to unplug it. Should we?"

"Unplug it? Why? You're using clean, dependable electric power, and electric power leads to a better life. Why give that up?"

"SEE?" said Andy. "Not everyone agrees with your cockamamie 'heater warming' theory!"

"But Mr. Power Guy," said Brad. "If you were cold, wouldn't you recommend plugging in that heater to warm us up?"

"Well, of course!" said the power company guy. "But don't unplug it just because of that. Perhaps the sun recently came out and is warming up this room as well. So it might really be the sun's fault, too. In any case, at least you're warm."

"But if we just unplug the heater to see . . ."

"There you go again with your baseless fearmongering!" exclaimed Andy. "What, are we all going to die unless we unplug it? Is that what you're saying?"

"No."

"Then let me make this perfectly clear to you, because you seem to be having a problem with facts. One, the room is not getting warmer. Two, even if it is, it's probably not the heater. I mean the gray box. Three, if it _is_ the gray box, why can't you admit that the temperature in this room changes all the time and we might need it? Four, neither you nor anyone else knows what's in that gray box, and you never will; the more testing you do the less I will believe you. And five, anyone who claims any of the above is a political hack who just wants to scare me into doing something I very much do NOT want to do. The plug stays in."

And with that they went back to sweating as the room slowly grew ever warmer.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

It hasn't stopped snowing for two days now.

[narcimund 0]

Please see Relevant Thread.

Edited to add: Oh, and BTW this is hilarious.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[billvon 2,425]

> It hasn't stopped snowing for two days now.

And that spot right under the heater is still cool.

[lawrocket 3]

And with that they went back to sweating as the room slowly grew ever warmer.

Eventually, Andy thought to himself, "My. It is getting warmer in here. Maybe Brad was correct." And Andy said to Brad, "You know, I think it would be wise to test your ideas. Everything you've said, upon thinking about it, is pretty intuitive. It's up to 85 now."

So Andy went to the socket and unplugged it. The humming stopped, and they waited to see what happened. After 30 minutes, they realized that the temperature had risen somewhat - not a whole lot, but it was up to 87 degrees now.

"The temperature is still rising, Brad. I am beginning to have some more doubt as to whether this thing was causing the temperature rise." Brad replied, "Well, it makes sense. There is ancillary heating coming from the heater. Just because you've shut it down doesn't mean that it will stop the heating or even cool down. Odds are, we've started a heating snowball by keeping that heater on. More than that, we've got these other powered items - lights, etc., that generate heat. Even the refrigerator generates heat by pumping heat out of the fridge and into the surrounding environment."

So Andy, knowing that Brad made sense, turned off the power. A half hour later, the temperature was 90 degrees.

"Who knows when this will stop. I told you - it should have been unplugged earlier" Andy said.

Deciding to see if he could figure out what was going on, Andy went to the small heater and figure out what it could have possibly done. Upon opening it, he sees a small basin with writing that says, "Water - Max Fill." So he goes to get some water and comes back to fill it.

Brad objects, "What are you doing? You're gonna make the room more unbearable by adding water vapor to it. At least it's dry in here now - no need to make it muggy. And water vapor holds heat."

Andy adds the water anyway, but the temperature keeps going up. Eventually he plugs it in and within seconds, a cool breeze comes from it.

"Wait a second. That doesn't make any sense. That heater is supposed to pump out heat. The water is just a ruse - a flash-evaporation system. You may 'think' it's cooler in here, but it's the same thing as holding a wet hand in front of a blowdryer - the water evaporating gives a feeling of coolness."

Brad continues, "Look at the thermometer - 88 degrees? Wait a second. That's impossible. Oh. Actually, it makes sense now. We must have turned the thing off just in time. Had we waited any longer to unplug it, we would have kept on getting hotter and hotter."

Andy says, "But it's putting out cold air now.'

Brad responds, "No. You only _think_ it's cold air. If an effect of the evaporation of the water balancing out the heat added by the heater. That's why the heater heated the room until there was water in it. The water evaporation balances the heat gain. Watch what happens when the water runs out."

After ten minutes, the water ran out and it was 82 degrees. A half hour later, the temperature was at 87.

Andy said, "See?" Brad said, "I wonder what they heck this thing is." He pulls off a panel and reads aloud, "Acme Swamp Cooler - 24 gallon." Andy gets 5 gallons of water and adds it to the heater.

"So selfish of you, Andy," Brad says. "You're just fooling yourself because you won't admit the truth of what I'm saying." Brad, no longer able to tolerate such an arrogant and pompous ass as Andy, decides to leave the room.

"Fuck. Yuma is goddamned hot in the summertime. And it'll only get worse because of people like Andy. It's 4:00 now - I spent 4 hours trying to convince him but he just won't see the point - he'll fry in there, but he's doing it to himself."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[dorbie 0]

Jim arrived and pulled a nice cold beer from the mysterious box, saying "You know if you cavemen stop screwing with this thing & leave the door closed it'll work much more efficiently".

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

It hasn't stopped snowing for two days now.

Actually the root cause of your problem is not so hard to explain. But unfortunately the solution to your problem is a lot more complex, it’s rather time consuming and rather expensive.

You see little is known about the original builder of the structure you call home. Some people like to call the original builder the “Grandaddy Of Designs” and some even claim that speaking to him gets results in the room. But this original builder has never shown his face since his initial work and pretty much just provided the inhabitants of the structure of an empty shell and the interior work of the room was left up to a variety of people. Well these people didn’t always do the work properly, they didn’t work well together and resentment and animosity was allowed to fester. So … to make a long story short, someone did a piss poor job of insulating the room and leaks exist all over the place in the walls, the roof, around the windows and around the doors. To make matters worse some brainiac had a bright idea to add a second HVAC system to the room complete with its own thermostat. So while the thermostat in the less desirable’s part of the room reads one temperature (which causes their heater to be on 24-7), the thermostat in your part of the room says something completely different and it causes the Air Conditioner to be on more often than not. Well since the room leaks and the windows, doors and roof let in moisture (not to mention the dude in the corner who continues to take a shower all the time), well once all this moisture meets the cool air from your HVAC system, frost and snow is produced.

Now how do we fix this problem?

Well there is no shortage of contractors lining up to give us advice. Some are rather shady looking since they’ve made their fortune in the room selling people things they don’t need and some are rather well let’s just say they don’t know what they are talking about since they’ve actually never worked a day in their life. All they know is how to tell people about their vision of how they can make everything better if we would only trust them by letting them take control over every aspect of our lives. Oh and there is a new breed of contractor who is trying to tell us that they can fix the problem (they are a spin off from the set of contractors who have never worked) and they believe that they can fix the problem by having some people “buying credits" from the other people in the room.

So who are we to believe?

Then Mike Holmes walks into the room, assesses the problem and tells us the only way we’re going to fix the problem is to gut the room down to the studs and start from scratch. Sounds great says some of the people in the room. Let’s do it. But then Holmes informs us that the room will be unlivable while the job is underway and that it’s going to take a very very very long time and he’s not so sure the habitants of the room will be able to afford the renos.

So what are we to do?

Well I wish I had an easy answer for you. But I assure you that the structure of the dwelling will be standing long after the interior of the room has become unlivable since the original designer was thinking much longer term that what we could ever think of and never really intended for us to occupy his space on a full time basis anyway. After all he did kick the previous tenants out (I think they were called the Dinosaurs), but we'll never know why since the dinos are no longer around and well the creator of the structure is an absentee landlord.

But I do have some good news for you.

In our tight labor market here on the privileged side of the room, we did find a contractor who has promised to come in before the week is out and he’s going to build us a fancy entertainment center which will generate so much heat that it will warm up our side of the room and our thermostat will kick in and the Air Condition will turn off and it will stop snowing. Then we can feel good that we’re back living the good life while all those on the other side of the room continue to hate us because we took the initiative to make our lives better while they sat around waiting for someone else to do something for them since they've never actually been good at doing anything for themselves and have always relied on others. But this contractor who will build us our entertainment center doesn't really know what he's doing and I'm sure the TV won't always work and the Air Conditioner will likely kick in again before the month is out.

Oh but I should point out that there is a group of people in the room who want a better life, they recocognize that they'll only get one by doing things for themselves and have resorted to building some fires in their corner of the room to forge their own steel and make their own tools. They breed like rabits and vow to themselves that once big enough they will crush anyone who gets in their way. Since we on the privalaged side of the room are too fat and too busy entertaining ourselves, we just ignore their mess and let them go about their business which just makes the less privalges people who have never worked a day in their life even more upset at us.

And everyone (well not everyone) lived happily ever after …

The End

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Royd 0]

That's what they get for buying a cheap heater without a thermostat.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Well there is no shortage of contractors lining up to give us advice. Some are rather shady looking since they’ve made their fortune in the room selling people things they don’t need

do these 'contractors' all agree with each other and have done 'peer reviews' on the project estimates and schedules and total cost of research grants?

And are they union, so any honest contractor that disagrees gets shunned and mocked and beaten with bags of doorknobs?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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do these 'contractors' all agree with each other

Oh hell no ...

Quote

so any contractor that disagrees gets shunned and mocked and beaten with bags of doorknobs?

Sounds good to me.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sundevil777 94]

I hope you just took this parable from another source, it would be a shame to waste so much time personally writing such a crappy analogy.

Your room should have multiple sources of heating and cooling, with some of those souces acting quite sporadically. To simplify the actual circumstances to one electric heater is to insult the intelligence of the reader. Perhaps that is the reason for the crappy analogy, you might think that people are too stupid to understand anything beyond a one variable problem.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,425]

>Your room should have multiple sources of heating and cooling, with
>some of those souces acting quite sporadically.

I didn't say those didn't exist. Can you think of a reason why?

>you might think that people are too stupid to understand anything
>beyond a one variable problem.

I was actually hoping people were smart enough to realize that this is a multivariable problem, and think about the steps one can take to simplify it. (For example, each person emits about 75 watts of heat on their own.)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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For example, each person emits about 75 watts of heat on their own

I contribute to the overall production of CO2 on this planet every time I fart not to mention exhale the oxygen I just breathed in. So blame me for Global Warming ... but don't forget to blame yourself as well. Now what do we do about all those cows emiting their CO2s? Hmmm ... I smell steak on the bar-be.

Also, what do your Global Warming Chicken Little buddies have to say about the increased sun spots activity and all the radiation/heat that comes with them?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,425]

>I contribute to the overall production of CO2 on this planet every time
>I fart not to mention exhale the oxygen I just breathed in. So blame me
> for Global Warming ... but don't forget to blame yourself as well.

Definitely true. (I assume you mean fart CH4 and breathe out CO2.) Fortunately the planet has adapted to these emissions over the years, which is why (normally) methane and CO2 levels stay relatively constant, barring a meteor impact or something.

>Now what do we do about all those cows emiting their CO2s? Hmmm ... I
>smell steak on the bar-be.

The big deal with cows is methane, actually. A much stronger greenhouse gas than CO2.

>Also, what do your Global Warming Chicken Little buddies have to say
>about the increased sun spots activity and all the radiation/heat that
>comes with them?

Google "11 year sunspot cycle."

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

For example, each person emits about 75 watts of heat on their own

I contribute to the overall production of CO2 on this planet every time I fart not to mention exhale the oxygen I just breathed in. So blame me for Global Warming ... but don't forget to blame yourself as well. Now what do we do about all those cows emiting their CO2s? Hmmm ... I smell steak on the bar-be.

Also, what do your Global Warming Chicken Little buddies have to say about the increased sun spots activity and all the radiation/heat that comes with them?

There is a product coming on the market soon that is Gas-X for Bovines. I think this will do more to reduce greenhouse gasses than all the chicken littles screeching, light bulb changing etc

BTW, I'm thinking of startig a company that sells carbon credits so if anyone needs a few, let me know and I'll be happy to sell them to you at a discout price.
Ah I can see it now

Gravitymasters Discount Carbon Credits -Never knowingly oversold. Check out our dicount prices before you buy. Discounts for Seniors and AAA Members.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

>Your room should have multiple sources of heating and cooling, with
>some of those souces acting quite sporadically.

I didn't say those didn't exist. Can you think of a reason why?

The first reaction is that you left out any other heat sources and sinks because you want to portray the situation in a simple model. That, and because using lousy analogies is natural to you.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[narcimund 0]

Quote

There is a product coming on the market soon that is Gas-X for Bovines. I think this will do more to reduce greenhouse gasses than all the chicken littles screeching, light bulb changing etc

Is this the same Gas-X that humans take? It doesn't in the least bit reduce gas. It's simply a detergent that reduces the foaminess of gas in the intestines so the small bubbles coalesce into larger bubbles. These larger bubbles are moved more easily by peristalsis and thus more quickly eliminated.

All the Gas-X in the world wouldn't eliminate a single gram of methane. It might however allow the cows to fart more effectively and reduce any uncomfortable bloating in their widdle tummies.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[billvon 2,425]

>The first reaction is that you left out any other heat sources and
>sinks because you want to portray the situation in a simple model.

It's not a simple model at all.

Here's a thought experiment. Let's say there's a powerful furnace somewhere else in the building. It can put a variable amount of heat into that room. Based purely on the information given in the parable, how much heat is it putting into the room?

>That, and because using lousy analogies is natural to you.

Analogies you don't understand would seem lousy, I imagine.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Here ya go.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=257233

.

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Here ya go.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=257233

Ah. That doesn't sound like the same thing at all. I wonder if it works -- and how well.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

>The first reaction is that you left out any other heat sources and
>sinks because you want to portray the situation in a simple model.

It's not a simple model at all.

Here's a thought experiment. Let's say there's a powerful furnace somewhere else in the building. It can put a variable amount of heat into that room. Based purely on the information given in the parable, how much heat is it putting into the room?

Your description of the "parable" was quite simple. Now we realize that you didn't intend the situation to be limited to the conditions you had stated - why is it necessary to be vague? That means the room might also be in Yellowstone National Park sitting on top of Old Faithful. Still seems like a lousy analogy.

Quote

>That, and because using lousy analogies is natural to you.

Analogies you don't understand would seem lousy, I imagine.

Your ability to make crappy analogies, that you now don't even fully describe, is without limit.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Your ability to make crappy analogies, that you now don't even fully describe, is without limit.

I can see why you'd say that given the right-wing's ability to intentionally fail to absorb any presentation of information that doesn't fit their ideological position (or more precisely the idiological positions of their politicians.)

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

It hasn't stopped snowing for two days now.

Make that five straights days of snow with cold temperatures.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

Quote

Your ability to make crappy analogies, that you now don't even fully describe, is without limit.

I can see why you'd say that given the right-wing's ability to intentionally fail to absorb any presentation of information that doesn't fit their ideological position (or more precisely the idiological positions of their politicians.)

It is the left wing that is intentionally deciding to ignore information that doesn't fit their template. The information being ignored isn't in the form of crappy analogies.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,425]

>Make that five straights days of snow with cold temperatures.

Sounds nasty! (Although I assume you understand the difference between instantaneous temperatures and average temperatures.)