immunisation

[peregrinerose 0]

I agree that it is your right and obligation to question. It's your body, your health, you call the shots. Your doctor should not be paid for drug Rx's, he should be paid for information that you then use to work with the doc to determine the best course of treatment (whether rx'd meds or something else).

Look how many drug companies get sued over side effects that are clearly stated on the label yet people for some reason get surprised if it happens to them and turn around and sue. People need to make educated decisions. Unfortunately, most people don't care enough to educate themselves.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[freeflybella 0]

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>Quoted from an article "assuring" us that infants' immune systems can
>handle the growing number of vaccines safely.

Would you ever allow your child outside? If so, why are you betting his/her life that their immune systems can handle the _thousands_ of _active_ pathogens they will be exposed to by merely touching things? Compared to the risks posed by vaccines, that's by far a bigger threat.

I'm not anti-vaccine. I'd love a cure-all that was 100% safe. Until that day comes, I owe it to myself and to my child to understand what's being asked of me (if not, forced upon me).

100% safe, eh? Funny demand, coming from a SKYDIVER.

I'm not throwing my infant from a plane, Kallend!

Calculated risk is what it's about. You can't take calculated risks if you don't know the factors involved. (hint: that's where the 'calculation' part comes in)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[billvon 2,434]

>the fact that some don't want us to be able to make those decisions.

Yes. There would have to be a HUGE societal benefit to taking away the right to make that decision. Complete eradication of a disease? That may be a big enough benefit to justify such a mandate. It's a tough call.

Would you give up the right to say no to a certain vaccination (as safe as, say, the polio vaccine) if it would nearly guarantee your child would never, ever get any form of cancer? I think most parents would say yes. For one form of a disease that isn't all that deadly? A much harder call.

[freeflybella 0]

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Complete eradication of a disease?

How many diseases are there in the world? Where do we draw the line, Bill?

It is a tough call. You're very right about that.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Andy9o8 0]

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Chickenpox? Rotavirus? Flu? I would never vax for those. Yet I'm going to have to fight for that right in 3-4 years when my son goes to school. Who knows how many more will be "required".

This comment raises an interesting side issue. Smallpox, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, pertussis, rotavirus and influenza are all contagious. From a public policy standpoint, mandatory vaccinations for schoolchildren are not just to protect the immunized child, but also to protect the others to whom he might otherwise communicate the disease.

I'm a parent, too, and I'm very protective of my parental prerogatives, so I understand where you're coming from. But my rights as a parent end where the public's right to be protected from a disease my kid might spread to them begins. If I don't like it, I have the option to home-school.

[shortyj 0]

I guess I will but this is the last time phil
homeopathy works on vibebrational level so like the rock when you throw it in the pond it ripples out you can still see and feel its effects. Even though the rock is gone. Homeopathy have to be made in sugar or alcohol and it just remembers imprint of the molecules.

Playtime is essential.

[unformed 0]

Can I get paid in vibrationally? I mean, if I think about, can it just vibe its way into my wallet?

Man that would be killer....

This ad space for sale.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I guess I will but this is the last time phil
homeopathy works on vibebrational level so like the rock when you throw it in the pond it ripples out you can still see and feel its effects. Even though the rock is gone. Homeopathy have to be made in sugar or alcohol and it just remembers imprint of the molecules.

You know what? I think I'm too obtuse for your level of knowledge.

[billvon 2,434]

>How many diseases are there in the world?

A lot! We've been at war with them for a long time. And sometimes, rarely, we win the battle for good. Smallpox is gone forever. Polio is almost gone for good. When you consider how many people both have killed over the years, that is a very, very good thing.

>Where do we draw the line, Bill?

That is indeed the question. Although I think this debate pales in the face of the debate that would be kicked off if we ever get an HIV vaccine out of the lab. Would it be worth mandating such a vaccine to save the lives of 3 million people a year? Even if parents are positive that their child will never, ever engage in any unsafe sex?

[unformed 0]

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Even if parents are positive that their child will never, ever engage in any unsafe sex?

Or that the future spouse of the child will never, ever cheat on them in an unsafe manner.

This ad space for sale.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I guess I will but this is the last time phil
homeopathy works on vibebrational level so like the rock when you throw it in the pond it ripples out you can still see and feel its effects. Even though the rock is gone. Homeopathy have to be made in sugar or alcohol and it just remembers imprint of the molecules.

I don't think you realize that this would be a violation of physics and in particular the conservation of energy. Drop one rock, and you see a increasingly diminished set of ripples in the pond. The rock isn't "gone," its effects just linger a bit longer than you can see the impact.

What you're confusing this with is the subject of natural frequencies. If you could drop a small rock with X seconds with the natural frequency of the pond, you could get surprisingly large ripples. My understanding of chinese herbal medicine (same realm) is that you take frequent small doses to get better efficacy than a single pill a day would provide. Which makes sense - the body can only handle so much of it at a time. It's true for vitamins as well, and vicodin sure works a lot better if you take the next pill before you can feel the pain again.

But there still has to be some level of active ingredient in the dosage.

[philh 0]

Do you have any evidence that these vibrations are real?
Do you have any evidence that if these vibrations are real that we cna in any way influence them to get the desired outcome?
Do you have nay evidence that these solution can remember the imprint of their molecules?

Are you aware the the air is filled with small particles of all sorts of stuff, skin fragments, bacteria etc etc why doesnt the solution remember these as well?

[Andy9o8 0]

Please refer to my cautionary note in Post #4.

[jm951 0]

In reading all this stuff about vacx, I'd like to point out something those opposed to vacx miss. My wife is a pre K teacher. Parents bring their kids to school with high fevers, doped up on tylenol and with noses running like a niagara slime falls. Many of these kids have strep, flu, or some other un-named disease. The diseases get passed along among the kids AND the staff who care for them. Vacx for major problem illnesses when the patient participates in a public setting are a very good idea. I say this because it lessens the risk to the general population from the disease.

It's very inconsiderate of these parents to drop off sick kids at school in the first place. The rest of the thinking, responsible parents then have to stay home with their sick children, and many times the staff wind up paying medical bills for personal treatment and missing work. All this because a clueless parent didn't want to be inconvenienced by a sick child. This school year alone, my wife has contracted strep 3 times and had 2 ear infections from this type of behavior.

[freeflybella 0]

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I think this debate pales in the face of the debate that would be kicked off if we ever get an HIV vaccine out of the lab. Would it be worth mandating such a vaccine to save the lives of 3 million people a year? Even if parents are positive that their child will never, ever engage in any unsafe sex?

Hmm...the hypothetical HIV vaccine.

-what are the side effects? what is the injury rate? how many die from it?

-at what age would this vaccine be given? birth?

-what would this vaccine be combined with? The bird flu and chickenpox? would it be the HIV vaccine or the HAHz vaccine?

-how many trials did it have and what were the results?

-how long since it was first approved are they trying to mandate it?

****
I hope a cure for HIV is found before a vaccine is.

Same result - eradication of disease. Less money for pharma. Less risk for those without HIV. Wait...less money for pharma? I guess we'll see the vax first.

****
The answer for me is no. Make the HIV vax available, make it free and educate everyone.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[billvon 2,434]

>The short answer for me is no.

That's fine, but 3 million lives saved is a very strong argument.

[freeflybella 0]

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>The short answer for me is no.

That's fine, but 3 million lives saved is a very strong argument.

What if you had the clairvoyant knowledge that your child would be permanently injured or die from the vaccine. Would you fork over the $600 bucks for him to get the shot?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[billvon 2,434]

>What if you had the clairvoyant knowledge that your child would
>be permanently injured or die from the vaccine. Would you fork over the
>$600 bucks for him to get the shot?

Nope! Nor would I let him eat for a week if I knew he was going to be poisoned sometime that week. But in the real world we do what's best for our kids based on our imperfect knowledge. And in the real world, kids are FAR FAR more likely to die of disease than die of the vaccination for that disease. (And that's where most of us live.)

[freeflybella 0]

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But in the real world we do what's best for our kids based on our imperfect knowledge.

Again, we're not talking about the ability to do what's best for your kid. We're talking about having that ability taken away.

The "real world" is more than blindly trusting institutions/systems/people (especially those who stand to make money from that trust). The "real world" includes recognition that those long revered institutions sometimes fuck up. And fuck up bad. It includes the understanding that most times, the right thing falls somewhere near the middle of a debate and not being afraid to look at all sides.

I think I live in the real world, Bill. I think we might even be neighbors!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[philh 0]

here are some graphs from the cdc showing incidence of disease following the introudction of a vacine
below
rubella
http://www.answers.com/topic/rubella-us-1966-93-cdc-gif
measles
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/meas-roug/gfx/fg2_3-1e.gif
this a very comprehensive document from the Candaians
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/97vol23/23s4/images/fig9.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/97vol23/23s4/23s4g_e.html&h=360&w=447&sz=10&hl=en&start=44&tbnid=5p1T5o9qtyuOOM:&tbnh=102&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsmallpox%2Bby%2Byear%2Bvaccine%2Bintroduced%26start%3D40%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

these show overwhelmbing benefits of vaccines.
what we need to do is to compare these benefits to the risk, which are of course never zero in anything.

Disease-Related Risks vs Adverse Effects ofVaccination
fatality rates
Measles
Pneumonia: 1 in 20 Encephalitis: 1 in 2,000 Death: 1 in 3,000

Mumps
Encephalitis: 1 in 300

Rubella
Congenital Rubella Syndrome: 1 in 4, (if woman becomes infected early in pregnancy)
Diphtheria
Death: 1 in 20
Tetanus Death: 3 in 100

Pertussis
Pneumonia: 1 in 8
Encephalitis: 1 in 20
Death: 1 in 20



Averse reaction
MMR Vaccine
Encephalitis or severe allergic reaction: 1 in 1,000,000

DTP Vaccine averse effects
Continuous crying, then full recovery: 1 in 100
Convulsions or shock, then full recovery: 1 in 1,750
Acute encephalopathy: 0-10.5 in 1,000,000
Death: None proven

source cdc

Lastly in the uk where I live, there was a big scare relating the MMR vacine to autism. So some real scientists went to investigate here were there conclusions
"None of the 6 predictions tested in this study to validate an autistic enterocolitis phenotype was supported by the data...combined with the mounting negative epidemiologic evidence, the lack of evidence for a new phenotype of MMR-induced autism strongly argues against any change in existing MMR immunization programs,"

i think the evdiencce is overwhelming. Most people who oppose vaccines do so on grounds other than real evidece. often they dont like big business or maybe they have religious grounds. But the medical evidence is agianst them.

[dorbie 0]

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I guess I will but this is the last time phil
homeopathy works on vibebrational level so like the rock when you throw it in the pond it ripples out you can still see and feel its effects. Even though the rock is gone. Homeopathy have to be made in sugar or alcohol and it just remembers imprint of the molecules.

Viberational? ripples? Imprint? Garbage!

Explain the physical phenomenon you're talking about please. You wouldn't know that mollecules exist without science, but now you've been informed of them you think it's just fine to spout a load of ignorant claptrap about imprinting.

Go take a class on chemistry.

Homeopathy has been scientifically tested and it has NO EFFECT in double blind studies. Get over it, accept the truth and stop inventing phenomena with absolutely no basis in any coherent scientific theory of physical reality.

[shortyj 0]

Have you ever taken a homeopathic med my guess is no. You have no room to talk.

Playtime is essential.

[philh 0]

So are you implying we cannot analyse anything using science but the only way to know if something works is our own personal expereince? that does not make sense. Imagine I invent a new canopy design, lets assume the rate of malfunction for parachutes as a whole is 1 per 1000 jumps. Now lets assume that the avergae for my new parachute is 1 malfunction in every 50 jumps. lets also assume aero dynamicists have show theoretically that my design is unsafe. I think we would be very safe to conclude that my new parachute design was not very safe. We can use both theory and emperical evidence to come to that conlusion. Are you seriosuly suggesting we would have to try this canopy before making this conclusion?Suppose we make 10 jumps on the canpoy and experience no malfunction, you are implying that we could then say oh yes that canopy is safe. of course that would be a ridiculous conclusion. Are you suggesting that we should ignore the theorists and that experimental evidence?Well that is the implication of what you are saying about homeopathy. i really think you need to learn a little bit about critical thinking.

[freeflybella 0]

I'm pretty aware of all the varied reasons why people might approve of/question/disapprove of vaccines.

Even if you believe vaccines are beneficial (if not necessary) - you don't have to believe they should be mandatory.

Even if you believe they should be mandatory - you don't have to believe they should be a consumer product.

Even if you believe HiB is no-brainer - you don't have to accept that getting the varicella vaccine is better than getting the wild disease. (when wild chickenpox is so hard to come by - the incidences of adults getting chickenpox may rise due to waning childhood vaccination. Additionally, contracting the wild disease reduces the chances of getting shingles later in life - AND it's speculated that repeated exposure to the wild disease as you get older (from children, grandchildren) acts as a booster to further reduce the incidences of shingles. As it is now, they are introducing a fucking shingles vaccine for those who get the varicella vaccine as children. Finally, the CDC added varicella to the routine schedule primarily for parental convenience/need - so that parents don't have to be out of work for a week with a sick kid.)

Even if you agree that vaccines are safe and get them all - you don't have to start injecting your newborn. You can delay the vax schedule in any number of ways. You can wait to start vaxing until 6 months - until 3 years old - until school or preschool/daycare age. You can request only 1 or 2 shots per visit rather than 4 or 5.

*Note to all parents: if your child is sick or has been sick within 1 week of a scheduled vax appointment, reschedule. Do not vax your child if s/he is ill. (This is printed on all accompanying printed warning/info sheets.)

Also, learn what the *real side effects of each vaccine are and actively watch for them - and let your ped know right away AND again at the next scheduled appointment that your child had a bad reaction. Peds always tell you soreness and fever - but did you know (as stated in philh's post) that 1 in 100 children who recieve DtaP will scream violently for sometimes hours?

I'm really not a fear-monger. I don't disrespect parents who choose to vaccinate. I just want people to know doesn't have to be black and white.

Just like all things having to do with your child - it's your responsibility to know what's happening and why. Whatever your final decision is.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[mikempb 0]

I think vaccines are like seatbelts in cars, most of the time they help you or even save your life but that one time in a thousand it will actually hurt you. Lets face it more kids have died from the flu than from kids who have died from the flu vaccine. But I respect your views on homeopathic remedies. I think theres room for both treatments

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