Do u beleave in God

[steveorino 7]

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It really amazes me the imaginary world religous people build up around themselves. All the things you must do and believe to achieve this unseen prize that is only received once you are dead.

I'm reminded of an old gospel tune that says, "If heaven was never promised to me, never to live eternally, it's been worth having the Lord in my life"

While I believe in heaven, I have much more of God's kingdom is now theory. Having JC in my life, with the peace and joy he brings, has brought me pleasure beyond description. And what have I given up to follow Him? Have I given up anything I miss? No. nothing. I miss nothing of my former life ... nothing. Having JC in my life is what makes me full of joy. To me personally, the promise of heaven is only the icing on the cake.

steveOrino

[jakee 1,257]

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However, even those who do believe the evidence is glossolalia agree that the Apostle Paul said fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

I have known many "christians" who can fake speaking in tongues or being slain in the Spirit, or any number of supernatural events, but I have never met any Christian who can fake the fruits of the HS that Paul speaks of for any length of time.

But you must also agree that the Holy Spirit is not the only source of these attributes, for those who are not christian can display them too.

Since the HS is not the only way to come about these qualities you cannot say that someone who displays them has definitely been guided by it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

You are right, the HS is not the only source of these qualities, but is understood from scripture that only Christians have the HS in them. So the question of what the HS looks like in non-believers is essentially a non-question. So back to Christians. They may have some of the fruits naturally and they may fake it as well. However, their life (walk along with talk and attitude) will show them to be followers of JC or not. There are other evidences of the HS recorded throughout the book of Acts.

steveOrino

[philh 0]

"but is understood from scripture that only Christians have the HS in them. "
So Chrsitianity is right because the book of the Christians tells them they are right. Is this supposed to be logical reasoning?

[steveorino 7]

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"but is understood from scripture that only Christians have the HS in them. "
So Chrsitianity is right because the book of the Christians tells them they are right. Is this supposed to be logical reasoning?

We were speaking about the HS in the Christian faith. Where else but Christian writings should I go for an authoritative explanation about Him?

steveOrino

[philh 0]

Steve this is what you said:
"I believe I have been thourough and open minded. I have purposedly sought out ideas (universities) from many different backgrounds. "
and this leads you to the conclusion that Christianity is true.
After I challenged you on this you replied:
"I'm not convinced that being open minded means one has to have read all the works of antiquity that refer to other Gods. "

So what you are saying is that in order to conclude that your faith is the one true faith you are not prepared to give a through study of other faiths? Nor are you prepared to study cosmology, evolutionary biology or geology for scientific thinking on our origins. I presume you also havent studied much neuro chemistry, economics or game theory all of which give evidencce for why people behave in moral or immoral ways. What you are really saying is that all you have studied is Christian texts with an open mind and guess what? you have come to a Christian conclusion. That is also how you know you have this invisible ghost giving you the guidance to understand your holy text. Its because you have studied the holy text and found that it tells you you have. I would call that a self reinforcing delusion.

As to your question:
"have you read every piece of literature in the realm of Christianity so you may keep an open mind toward it?
No i havent , although I have read many Christian philosophers, but I am not the one who is claiming I have some holy truth revealed to me by ghosts through my throuough study. when I make claims I back them up through verifiable evidence, you dont.That's a very big difference.

[steveorino 7]

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Steve this is what you said:
"I believe I have been thourough and open minded. I have purposedly sought out ideas (universities) from many different backgrounds. "
and this leads you to the conclusion that Christianity is true.
After I challenged you on this you replied:
"I'm not convinced that being open minded means one has to have read all the works of antiquity that refer to other Gods. "

So what you are saying is that in order to conclude that your faith is the one true faith you are not prepared to give a through study of other faiths? Nor are you prepared to study cosmology, evolutionary biology or geology for scientific thinking on our origins. I presume you also havent studied much neuro chemistry, economics or game theory all of which give evidencce for why people behave in moral or immoral ways. What you are really saying is that all you have studied is Christian texts with an open mind and guess what? you have come to a Christian conclusion. That is also how you know you have this invisible ghost giving you the guidance to understand your holy text. Its because you have studied the holy text and found that it tells you you have. I would call that a self reinforcing delusion.

As to your question:
"have you read every piece of literature in the realm of Christianity so you may keep an open mind toward it?
No i havent , although I have read many Christian philosophers, but I am not the one who is claiming I have some holy truth revealed to me by ghosts through my throuough study. when I make claims I back them up through verifiable evidence, you dont.That's a very big difference.

But you have made your mind up about your worldview. Why are you claiming I must review neuro chemistry, economics or game theory to know, but you don't have read the Bible or other Christian philosophers?

steveOrino

[altrisk 0]

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Yes I am a Christian. I believe and trust in Jesus. It's about having a personal relationship with your creator.

Thank God (Yes he exists whether you believe it or not!) I was beginning to think al skydivers are Godless, weird atheists! "The FOOL says in his heart: There is no God!" Psa 14:1

[steveorino 7]

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but I am not the one who is claiming I have some holy truth revealed to me by ghosts through my throuough study

BTW, the term ghost is a very poor translation. yes, I know many Christians use the KJV translation Holy Ghost. However, you have never seen me write that, yet you continue to use that term when responding to me. I guess it makes you think your argument is superior because you don't believe in "ghost"? Whatever floats your boat.

steveOrino

[bigtexan 0]

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"The FOOL says in his heart: There is no God!" Psa 14:1

So you feel your not a fool because you are a christian and can quote this text.

[rant]
I think your a fool for being so gullible that you fall for this christian ideology.

I think your a fool because you cannot understand that the environment that you were born into was a christian environment - not a Muslim, Jewish, (etc.. other) religion - thus I wonder why your a christian. Was it a free choice from the religious menu here on the planet.. or was it that christianaty was what your were handed and you just went - oh - OK - better do this or go to hell. Fools just follow the heard and this is what your doing as you show no independent thought with your argument. Quoting scripture as thought it were a 'global' truth from a pedestal of 'higher than thou' when most of the planet feels your beliefs are bogus is rather cultish and mind washed behavior.


You were born into a christian culture thus this is the religion you were presented with and most likely to submit to. Sad as you really had no honest choice - it was taken from you at childhood by those whom feel it was their duty to indoctrinate you as soon as possible so you didn't get some other religion first - or none at all.

One of the goals of your religion is to convert all their children into their religion before they have the knowledge of the wider world and or the ability to objectively reason and view the religion with an open mind..instead it is pounded in like the ABC's and at a young age (what christians child does not know of hell and the consequences of not believing in god etc...).

This robbing children of their 'choice' by supplanting your religion before their ability to choose for themselfs is the single most disgusting thing I can think of. Your religion steals from people their freedom to be open minded by miss information and fear mongering at their most impressionable stages.

Yet - your (the Christians) so close minded you think this is the right thing to do and cannot for the life of you see it otherwise. Thus your hopeless.
[/rant]

[steveorino 7]

feel better now?

steveOrino

[bigtexan 0]

no..

[steveorino 7]

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no..

I "usually" enjoy the debates (if you can call it that) on SC. At the same time I feel angry and frustrated at the example many Christians leave. (not necessarily speaking of any christian in SC)

My goal isn't to convince atheists to change their mind. As it is often pointed out, we all have a worldview that is hard to shake. My goal is to enjoy the mental gymnastics and to offer insight to assumptions.

I have gained insight from many here from buddhists to agnostics to atheists. I believe it is a terrible mistake that many Christians make when they believe all atheist/agnostics are devil worshipping, self-serving, religion hating "fools". Yes, I'm aware of the passage in Psalms that says those who say there is no god are fools, but are those Christians aware of the passage in Peter that says we are to share our faith with gentleness and respect?? 1 Peter 3:15

Anyway, I wish you peace.

steveOrino

[philh 0]

"But you have made your mind up about your worldview. Why are you claiming I must review neuro chemistry, economics or game theory to know, but you don't have read the Bible or other Christian philosophers? "
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yes I have made up my mind but I will gladly change it, if the evidence demands. Christians rarely have the same attitude. My beliefs are based on evidence that is verifibale, yours are beliefs that are not verifiable. When asked how you know you the bible is true and how you know you have the right interpretation you said it was becuase of your wide and open minded study. That is why your study should now be open to scrutiny , I have not made such a claim. Now why should you study these other fields? Well,for example right now neuro chemsist are mapping which parts of the brain are responsible not just for our actions but also our emotional states. This is very strong evidence against your concpet that there is an inane human nature that can continue to exist outside of the brain. Now perhaps you wont agree with this, but if you are really open minded about this topic then perhaps you might research this as much as your holy texts.
A proper grounding in real science might convince you that ghosts/spirits whatever you want to call them do not exist. So we cant use such ghosts as guides to interpret ancient books. Ill use the word ghost because that is common usage and you cant just change language because you dont like it.

[steveorino 7]

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yes I have made up my mind but I will gladly change it, if the evidence demands. ... My beliefs are based on evidence that is verifibale, yours are beliefs that are not verifiable.

A llittle of the "evidence" you demand. OT prophecies written hundreds of years before Christ were fulfilled in him. Her are but a few.

Jesus' place of birth in Bethlehem Micah 5:2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Fulfilled in Matt. 2:1, "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."

Jesus would be preceded by a messenger Isaiah 40:3, "A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'"

Fulfilled in Matt. 3:1-2, "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"

Rejected by His own people Isaiah 53:3, "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Fulfilled in John 7:5, "For even his own brothers did not believe in him," and John 7:48, "Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him?"

Jesus' side pierced Zech. 12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one mourns for an only son."

Fulfilled in John 19:34, "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water."


Jesus would be crucified Psalm 22:1, Psalm 22:11-18, "For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?...Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."

Fulfilled in John 19:23-24, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. Let's not tear it, they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it." This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did."

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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"But you have made your mind up about your worldview. Why are you claiming I must review neuro chemistry, economics or game theory to know, but you don't have read the Bible or other Christian philosophers? "
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yes I have made up my mind but I will gladly change it, if the evidence demands. Christians rarely have the same attitude. .

Please provide for me evidence that Christ isn't who he says he is and I will consider changing my mind.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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yes I have made up my mind but I will gladly change it, if the evidence demands..

More evidence


Christian persecution started with Jesus himself. He was asked directly at trial, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” Jesus left no room for ambiguity – His first two words were “I am.” The religious elite in Jerusalem knew what Jesus was saying – It was very clear to them that He was claiming to be God. As such, Jesus was put to death on a Roman cross for the crime of blasphemy, thus becoming the first martyr for what would become the Christian Church.


Christian persecution was a dramatic part of early church history. For anyone who holds that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was a man-made hoax conspired by a group of disciples should check out the legacy of martyrdom. Eleven of the 12 apostles, and many of the other early disciples, died for their adherence to this story. This is dramatic, since they all witnessed the alleged events of Jesus and still went to their deaths defending their faith. Why is this dramatic, when many throughout history have died martyred deaths for a religious belief? Because people don’t die for a lie. Look at human nature throughout history. No conspiracy can be maintained when life or liberty is at stake. Dying for a belief is one thing, but numerous eye-witnesses dying for a known lie is quite another.


Here is an account of early Christian persecution, as compiled from numerous sources outside the Bible, the most-famous of which is Foxes’ Christian Martyrs of the World:

Around 34 A.D., one year after the crucifixion of Jesus, Stephen was thrown out of Jerusalem and stoned to death. Approximately 2,000 Christians suffered martyrdom in Jerusalem during this period. About 10 years later, James, the son of Zebedee and the elder brother of John, was killed when Herod Agrippa arrived as governor of Judea. Agrippa detested the Christian sect of Jews, and many early disciples were martyred under his rule, including Timon and Parmenas. Around 54 A.D., Philip, a disciple from Bethsaida, in Galilee, suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was scourged, thrown into prison, and afterwards crucified. About six years later, Matthew, the tax-collector from Nazareth who wrote his gospel in Hebrew, was preaching in Ethiopia when he suffered martyrdom by the sword. James, the brother of Jesus, administered the early church in Jerusalem and was the author of an Epistle by his name. At age 94, he was beat and stoned, and finally had his brains bashed out with a fuller's club. Matthias was the apostle who filled the vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded. Andrew was the brother of Peter who preached the gospel throughout Asia. On his arrival at Edessa, he was arrested and crucified on a cross, the two ends of which were fixed transversely in the ground (this is where we get the term, St. Andrew's Cross). Mark was converted to Christianity by Peter, and then transcribed Peter’s account of Jesus in his Gospel. Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria in front of Serapis, their pagan idol. It appears Peter was condemned to death and crucified at Rome. Jerome holds that Peter was crucified upside down, at his own request, because he said he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord. Paul suffered in the first persecution under Nero. Paul’s faith was so dramatic in the face of martyrdom, that the authorities removed him to a private place for execution by the sword.

In about 72 A.D., Jude, the brother of James who was commonly called Thaddeus, was crucified at Edessa. Bartholomew preached in several countries and translated the Gospel of Matthew into the language of India. He was cruelly beaten and then crucified by idolaters there. Thomas, called Didymus, preached the Gospel in Parthia and India, where exciting the rage of the pagan priests, he was martyred by being thrust through with a spear. Luke was the author of the Gospel under his name. He traveled with Paul through various countries and is supposed to have been hanged on an olive tree by idolatrous priests in Greece. Barnabas, of Cyprus, was killed without many known facts in about 73 A.D. Simon, surnamed Zelotes, preached the Gospel in Mauritania, Africa, and even in Britain, where he was crucified in about 74 A.D. John, the "beloved disciple," was the brother of James. From Ephesus he was ordered to Rome, where it is affirmed he was cast into a cauldron of boiling oil. He escaped by miracle, without injury. Domitian afterwards banished him to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation. He was the only apostle who escaped a violent death.


Christian persecution didn’t slow the growth of the Christian faith during the first few centuries after Christ. Even as its early leaders died horrible deaths, Christianity flourished throughout the Roman Empire. How can this historical record of martyrdom be viewed as anything but dramatic evidence for the absolute truth of the Christian faith – a faith, unlike any other, founded on historical events and eye-witness testimony

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

Steve, all you've got is an ancient myth that makes some prophecy and another ancient myth that says the prophecy came true. Not that it would be hard to fake.

1) Born in Bethlehem, so what? Loads of people have been born in Bethlehem.
2) Some nutcase shouting "the end is nigh", there's one of those on every other street corner. Has been for as long as there have been corners..
3) Rejected by his own people, well bullying is very common especially if you're rocking the boat or saying unpopular stuff.
4) Crucified, nothing special here either. If you make a big enough nuicance of yourself, governments tend to take measures to shut you up. Not so much nowadays in the west, but try making trouble in NK, China or Iran and see how far you get.

Then you've got a bunch of martyrs. All that proves is that they were willing to die for a belief, not that their belief was true. Iraq and Afganistan turf out these by the truck load.

It's weak and hear-say. If someone proposed a new theory relating to golf course management, I'd want to see more evidence than that. If you throw in lepricauns, loch ness monsters or a god, I'd want a whole load more evidence again.

You say that's enough evidence to believe, I think it's a joke to even call it evidence.

[jakee 1,257]

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"The FOOL says in his heart: There is no God!" Psa 14:1

"The muppet says in his heart: Hello Mr Magic Man in the sky!" Jack 4:2

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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I believe it is a terrible mistake that many Christians make when they believe all atheist/agnostics are devil worshipping, self-serving, religion hating "fools".

You gotta admit though, it is funny when people say that.

"You stupid atheist devil worshippers you!"

"Hmm, you haven't quite grasped the meaning of the word 'atheist' have you...."

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

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You say that's enough evidence to believe, I think it's a joke to even call it evidence.

There are over 700 OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. Obviously I only pasted a small fraction. What would the odds be that one man fulfilled all 700 of these ancient prophecies?

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Then you've got a bunch of martyrs. All that proves is that they were willing to die for a belief, not that their belief was true. Iraq and Afganistan turf out these by the truck load.

Yes, there are martyrs in most every religion, but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were willing to die for a myth they created.

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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Yes, there are martyrs in most every religion, but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were willing to die for a myth they created.

All this proves is that they willing to die for their story. Soldiers do quite a bit of dying regardless of whether they believe in why they were sent to war. David Koresh's followers did quite a bit of dying too. A christian martyr doesn't prove that god is real.

[philh 0]

Is that really the best you can do,?some vague prophecies claimed to have been fulfilled by Jesus followers. Im sorry these dont count at all because the fulfilment fo these prophecies is only given by you in the bible. The bible was written by Christs followers so they are not exactly objective witnesses to verify the claim are they? Yet again we come back to your same old argument: the bible is true because the bible says its true. Furthermore we dont know who wrote the goospels or when they were written, another reason not to consider them as good evidence. Lastly the prophecies themselves are not specific enough to really be taken seriously. For example your first prophesy is predicting someone coming to rule Isreal. It is not ncecssarily form the town of Bethlehem, some have argued that this is a man named Bethlehem (son of Calebs 2nd wife ), furthermore Jesus never ruled Isreal. Moreover we dont even know Jesus was really born in Bethlehem , we have to take Chrsitians word for it. and all thats assuming he even existed, something we dont know for sure either. You think the Christian authors dont have an agenda? You think they are above looking over old texts trying to make stuff fit it? I don't think this sort of thinking counts as evidence.

If we are going to take a prediction seriously it has to be very specific, the dates in which it was made have to be confirmed by several indepent sources. The fulfilment of the prediction has to be equally specific not subject to vague interpretation of texts, that the fulfilment happened also has to be confirmed by several independent sources and its fulfilment has to be impossible by normal means. (If someone says I predict a Presidnet will come form Texas and hundreds of years later a President is elcted form Texas would we say wow what a fulfilment? No we would not)
Again if you studied a bit of science you would see how a real prediction is made and verified. For example relativity predicts the exact amount of time a moving clock will lose when placed on a moving vehicle. These prediction have been verified to several decimal places , thats a real prediciton and real verification. Your vague stuff just pales in comparison.

Your comment on marytdom is a ridculous argument and I have heard it from many other Christians. All it proves is that the early Chrsitians believed the Christian message. Plenty of people believe stuff very fervently without it being grounded in reality. For example, plenty of people believe they have been kidnapped by ufos, they believe it very passionatley and they believe it really happened to them. Are we to presume that everyone who believes somehting passionately is right?The early followers of Muhhamed were prepared to die for their beliefs, was he really god's last messanger, Im sure you doubt that, but thats just Christian double standards.

[steveorino 7]

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Steve, all you've got is an ancient myth that makes some prophecy and another ancient myth that says the prophecy came true. Not that it would be hard to fake

Let's look closely at the BIG one. The crucifiction. It was prophesied in Psalm 22 100s of years before crucifiction was common practice. At the time no Jewish theology included a "suffering" messiah. In fact quite the contrary, they still don't today. It would be inconceiveable for the Jews to think their Messiah would die as a criminal. Yet the Psalmter wrote about a crucifiction in Psalm 22.

Hundreds of years later JC is crucified just as the Psalmter predicted. His crucifiction stands as historical fact outside the Bible

steveOrino