Do u beleave in God

[jakee 1,262]

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But as you can tell from Phil's refusal to accept my wife's eye-witness testimony and physical evidence like a sleeper with tire tracts as probable explanation of something outside the normal, that any amount of evidence would not suffice. [Crazy]

No, its not normal. Yes, I (in my uneducated opinion) would generally expect a kid to get killed or very seriously injured by that.

And there's the thing, I would generally expect a kid to die from that sort of thing, and things like that happen all the time! A quick google search shows that in 2005 in the UK alone 70 kids under the age of 16 were run over and killed. So Steve (and I mean no offence by this) what makes your kid so special?

What does he have that those dead pedestrians didn't, that cot death kids don't, that kids who find daddies gun without the safety catch on don't?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

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your a good guy - best wishes.

steveOrino

[Mockingbird 0]

I haven't any idea what you're talking about.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[steveorino 7]

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. So Steve (and I mean no offence by this) what makes your kid so special?

What does he have that those dead pedestrians didn't, that cot death kids don't, that kids who find daddies gun without the safety catch on don't?

I don't have a good answer to why some receive miracles and othrs don't. I wish I knew. I prayed my mother's cancer would leave and it didn't. I prayed my wifes would as well and it did.

So, while I do not pretend to understand God I say with Job, Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him; Job 13:15

steveOrino

[georgerussia 0]

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That happens a lot here in SC when atheist quote texts out of context from te bible. Especially parables from JC. While they may have read portions of the bible (or even all of it), undoubtedly they have no understanding based on how they misues the different genres of scripture to prove their point.

So far I have only seen different interpretations of the scriptures. As I said before, if we start talking interpretations - there is no way you can prove your interpretation is correct, and mine is not. So no, it does not happen a lot in SC.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Even though free interpretation of scripture is a major tenant in protestant christianity, I believe we need a guide.

I would say we need ONE guide everyone agrees upon.
Instead we have now one HUNDRED different guides. Which is much worse than having no guide at all.

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Peter goes on to say it is the Holy Spirit who is the guide who gives correct interpretation.

Maybe. But the problem is that everyone claims that his interpretation is the only one guided by the Holy Spirit. Since there is no Holy Spirit available to confirm or deny it, this quote is completely useless for us with no direct access to Holy Spirit.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Mockingbird 0]

Yeah it does. Perhaps not so much in this particular thread, but it you were to check previous threads, you'd see that it happened frequently.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[georgerussia 0]

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You assume that all these groups disagree on most issues.

They disagree on important (for them) issues. It doesn't have to be "most"; one is enough if it is important.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Mockingbird 0]

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Peter goes on to say it is the Holy Spirit who is the guide who gives correct interpretation.

Maybe. But the problem is that everyone claims that his interpretation is the only one guided by the Holy Spirit. Since there is no Holy Spirit available to confirm or deny it, this quote is completely useless for us with no direct access to Holy Spirit.

I've never heard anyone make the claim that his interpretation is the ONLY one guided by the Holy Spirit. Either you have, or you're generalizing.

The Holy Spirit leads his children in various ways. We're not all duplicates, like stepford wives.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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They disagree on important (for them) issues. It doesn't have to be "most"; one is enough if it is important.

A lot of denominations/groups agree on MOST things, but have a "pet" teaching which they grew to emphasize above other doctrines. No harm there.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[jakee 1,262]

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I haven't any idea what you're talking about.

So you didn't read the link you posted?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[georgerussia 0]

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Thank God (Yes he exists whether you believe it or not!)

How do you know? Have you talked to Him? Have you seen Him?

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I was beginning to think al skydivers are Godless, weird atheists! "The FOOL says in his heart: There is no God!" Psa 14:1

"Only the stupid ones talk about Christ while it is obvious that Flying Spahetti Monster is the only God" FSM 12:1

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Please provide for me evidence that Christ isn't who he says he is and I will consider changing my mind.

Because Myths of Ancient Greek explicitly listed all the Gods - from Zeus to Athena, and there were no Christ.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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I have. Of course people on SC said it wasn't a miracle even though they could offer no reasonable explanation.

You will not consider any reasonable explanation, as you already said it was a divine miracle.
In this position the only thing which might change your opinion is the Christ personally coming to your place and telling you so. Which obviously doesn't happen because its existence is subject to the same belief.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Why would I lie?

Oh, there is a lot of reasons why one could lie. For example, in attempt to convince people that the God exists and is looking for them. Like the priests have been lying about the Holy Fire, shroud of Christ and crying icons.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Well, you are right in the fact I can't produce a picture of JC stading there with nail prints in his hand and holding a newspaper dated three days after his crucifiction.

I can produce this. That is why this is not evidence.

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Of course I think coincidences of 700 prophecies being fulfilled by one man along with radical changes in his followers follwing his resurrection and good indications that Q and Acts were written soon after his crucifiction lead to a more logical explanation of something outside the ordinary.

Any history book can be claimed to contain much more prophecies being fulfilled, with much more details to make it true. All you need is just to claim the book had been written before anything mentioned in this book happens.

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But as you can tell from Phil's refusal to accept my wife's eye-witness testimony and physical evidence like a sleeper with tire tracts as probable explanation of something outside the normal, that any amount of evidence would not suffice.

300 years ago if you show the people that you can climb a 1000ft mountain, jump from it, and walk away from it, they would consider it outside the normal as well.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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I've never heard anyone make the claim that his interpretation is the ONLY one guided by the Holy Spirit.

This is a conclusion.
Steveorino claimed that Peter had said that "it is the Holy Spirit who is the guide who gives correct interpretation".
Therefore if you claim that your interpretation is true, this means that it was guided by Holy Spirit.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[JackC 0]

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You guys need to understand as a therapist/counselor (hope to be pyschologist one day) I have a different view of evidence than a scientist.

When diagnosing a client I see evidence that suggest a certain probabale diagnosis. It is never concrete. I don't expect pyschology to be, nor do I expect theology to be either

Actually Steve, this is a fairly big point. Psychology is possibly the wooliest "science" known to man. Because it deals with stuff that is rooted in the patients own head it is therefore not subject to the normal rules of the universe. As such you're forced to take a lower standard of evidence than the rest of us.

Now maybe this accounts for you being happy with the evidence you presented for JC being who he said he was. The trouble is, while it might be good enough evidence to diagnose whatever psychosis your patient is suffering from, it is in no way good enough to ascertain the reality of an event or object.

If you use the psychologists standard of evidence in fields of endeavour that deal with non-imaginary things, you may well find yourelf coming to the wrong conclusion on a regular basis. Would you convict a criminal and send him to the chair on this standard of evidence? I certainly hope not.

Although I come off as a hard assed skeptic, what you believe in in entirely up to you and it doesn't much matter to me either way. But I would urge you (and everyone else) to look again at your standards of evidence because it is worrying that for so many people it is so low.

[jakee 1,262]

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I don't have a good answer to why some receive miracles and othrs don't. I wish I knew. I prayed my mother's cancer would leave and it didn't. I prayed my wifes would as well and it did.

I don't want to get deep into such personal things for the sake of arguing a case on teh internest but I'll just ask, do you put this down to the intervention/ no-intervention of god or do you think it is simply a medical matter? (Say the word and I'll drop it.)

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So, while I do not pretend to understand God I say with Job, Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him; Job 13:15

Now this is an interesting line of thought. It appears you believe in quite an active, interventionist God. How does this gel with free will and facing the consequences of one's actions? If I ask the generic question "Why is there evil/ war/ murder in the world" you'd probably tell me about free will. Yet on the other hand you're telling me that God can and does intervene to save people from the consequences of their actions (eg. running over your kid). When you accept that God is perfectly willing to intervene to make the world a better place the fact that the world is so terrible for so many people must become a lot more problematic for you.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[philh 0]

"My father-in-law still has that 69 buick. Would you guys be willing to lie down and let me drive over you to prove your point? "


Some people have doen this and that is a fact, with much much heavier trucks. I showed you the video of it happening on you tube and you completley ignored it. I guess it didnt fit with your desire to see this as an act of god.
Ill also ask you again should we believe every incredible claim we hear? Do you believ iin UFO kidnappings, the loch ness monster ect etc? You havent shown us any evidence of this event happening, you werent even there, your wife said it happened ,she thought she ran over her son, so even in a court that would be excluded as evidence because it is hearsay .
Similarly all you evidence for the gospels is also hearsay , I asked you for one non Chrsitian witness to either a) Jesus death b)jesus resurection or c) the martydom of one of Jesus contemporaries for the reason he blieved he saw jesus die on the cross .
So far you have provided none. All you have provided is "it says to so in the bible".In fact when it comes to the martyrs we dont even have that. Just like your story with your son, we just have to accept somebody else say so (its not even your say so by your own admission you werent there).

If you are studying pyschology you should really check out the pyschology of magic and illusion. All the time magicians perform a trick and thhe audience are impressed, but whats really interesting is that as the time elapses between the audience seeing the trick increases, their recollection of it changes, it mostly grows more fantastical as time progresses, and that could be only a few hours after the trick was performed. The same goes for co called pyschics (who are really just conjurors themselves) .
IMPORTANT
Not only do conjurors know the audience have false memories of the tricks performed scientists have shown the biological bais for false memory syndrome:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021211083732.htm

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4123031

[GravityJunky 0]

I uh... think the horse is dead, put the whips down, place your hands in the air & step away from the carcass!
---------------------------------------------------
I don't talk about skydiving in synagogue, so... ow, wait a minute I do actually.... uh... never mind carry on!
But just for fun, I'd like to know how many atheists, start talking to 'him' or 'her' {try making a deal with}...during an OMFG, skydiving moment! Just curious!

*My Inner Child is A Fucking Prick Too!
*Everyones entitled to be stupid but you are abusing the priviledge
*Well I'd love to stay & chat, But youre a total Bitch! {Stewie}

[Mockingbird 0]

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why dont you watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV2PJ71z85s

i think that proves one can be run over by a truck and not be harmed. It does not require a miracle, just an interesting weight ditribution in the truck , soryy about that...
Some people have doen this and that is a fact, with much much heavier trucks. I showed you the video of it happening on you tube and you completley ignored it. I guess it didnt fit with your desire to see this as an act of god.

Apparently you didn't watch it either. Good grief Phil! Man, if you haven't even looked at the ridiculous video you referenced, I'll bet you know next-to-nothing about the Bible or the Christian faith which you claim to find so irrational and objectionable. Why do you spend your time trying to tear down other people's beliefs? You've gone past inquiring about our beliefs and even the reasoning stage --- now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You can't even accept the personal testimony as true of a man who almost lost his child? You practically called him a liar. And then this stupid video. Talk about disingenuous.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[jakee 1,262]

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But just for fun, I'd like to know how many atheists, start talking to 'him' or 'her' {try making a deal with}...during an OMFG, skydiving moment! Just curious!

Never crossed my mind. Seriously, why would I want to waste time talking to an imaginary dude when I could be figuring out whats wrong and how to fix it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

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If you use the psychologists standard of evidence in fields of endeavour that deal with non-imaginary things, you may well find yourelf coming to the wrong conclusion on a regular basis. Would you convict a criminal and send him to the chair on this standard of evidence? I certainly hope not.

Are you implying that pyschology deals in the field of imaginary things? Are you saying theology deals in the field of imaginary things? If so, while your understanding of physics may be great, your concept of pyschology & theology is very limited.

steveOrino

[Mockingbird 0]

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Similarly all you evidence for the gospels is also hearsay , I asked you for one non Chrsitian witness to either a) Jesus death b)jesus resurection or c) the martydom of one of Jesus contemporaries for the reason he blieved he saw jesus die on the cross .
So far you have provided none. All you have provided is "it says to so in the bible".In fact when it comes to the martyrs we dont even have that. Just like your story with your son, we just have to accept somebody else say so (its not even your say so by your own admission you werent there).

Some secular sources mentioning Christ's life/death/resurrection:
1) Jewish historian Flavius Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities" (A.D. 93) says James, "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ," was executed in A.D. 62.
2) A second Josephus passage was embellished by later Christians, experts think, but even with problematic wording deleted it corroborates Jesus' crucifixion under Pontius Pilate and ongoing belief in him as the messiah and a miracle-worker.
3) Pliny the Younger wrote the Emperor Trajan from present-day Turkey (around A.D. 111) assailing the "contagious superstition" of the Christians "reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God."
4) Tacitus' "Roman Annals" (A.D. 117 or earlier) said the Emperor Nero blamed Rome's fire of A.D. 64 on people who "got their name from Christ" who was executed under Pilate, and their "pernicious superstition" [probably a reference to the rumor of his resurrection] continued in Judea and Rome. "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberious at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths, Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
5) Suetonius' "Life of Claudius" (around A.D. 120) says that emperor expelled Rome's Jews because they were rioting "at the instigation of Chrestus" in A.D. 49, apparently misunderstanding Jewish disputes over belief in the Christ.

Source: "Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament" by the late Professor F.F. Bruce, University of Manchester, England.

In addition:

6) Tertullian AD 155-200 wrote the APOLOGY to the Roman government and mentioned a letter from Pilate to Caesar: "Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all the accusers of the Christians."
(See also: http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77/)

Primary sources for the information on the lives and deaths of the apostles are early church historians Jerome, Eusebius, Irenaeus, Clemens, Polycarp, Hippolytus, Dionysius, and Josephus. Sorry, their specific lives and deaths weren't considered noteworthy by eminent secular historians. Only the people who had good reason to care (early Christians) kept track of such things. (But of course you will discount their testimony because it's "biased," right? It was all a "vast Christian-wing conspiracy.")

The New Testament records the martyrdom of two Christians: James, the apostle, who was beheaded by Herod Agrippa, and Stephen who was stoned to death (and whose martyrdom introduces us to Saul, the very zealous hater of Christ's followers... who became the apostle, Paul.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"